Shooting Qualification for License To Carry

[pdpsc]

IIRC, NYPD has a 34% hit ratio, not great at all...

[Tvandermyde]

To be clear, I don;t advocate a 25 yard test. Molly worked with some in LE and came up with the one that is in the bill and I think those distances are just fine based upon the LE class I just took. I do think that the draw, fire, re-holster. Draw fire, reload, fire re-holster does a decent job of allowing the instructor to to evaluate the students as they will be having to sign their name and attest to their skills.

 

Do I think RTC should belike he first amendment, yes. But I'm living in this imperfect reality, called Illinois that we have to deal with.

[Kevin C]

To be clear, I don;t advocate a 25 yard test. Molly worked with some in LE and came up with the one that is in the bill and I think those distances are just fine based upon the LE class I just took. I do think that the draw, fire, re-holster. Draw fire, reload, fire re-holster does a decent job of allowing the instructor to to evaluate the students as they will be having to sign their name and attest to their skills.

 

Do I think RTC should belike he first amendment, yes. But I'm living in this imperfect reality, called Illinois that we have to deal with.

+1

Bottom line is that we will qualify based on the the Rules set forth by ISP. If an applicant seems like a danger on the range that's different but if they handle their firearm safely and can qualify , I have no issue signing off. However I will emphasize to practice regularly to improve your skills and get very comfortable with your carry firearm. That should be the responsibility of every CCW permit holder.

[Drylok]

Edited to reflect that I do not disagree with Drylok, because he did not say that he will REQUIRE anything.

 

If you come to my class, you can bring any gun that (1) meets the requirements of the laws or rules of this state and (2) you can operate safely. So far, I see nothing in the Firearm Concealed Carry Act that states one must carry or qualify with a specific type of gun. The Illinois State Police may put out a rule that limits what our students can shoot during training/qualification, but that has not happened yet.

 

If a student wants to do something that I would personally consider ridiculous, like bring a Ruger Super Redhawk chambered in .454 Casull or a Ruger Single Six chambered in .22lr, I will talk to him/her about their choice of firearms, but I will not send them home or automatically fail them just because they brought something I personally do not think is a good defensive carry weapon. My concern will only be can he/she handle that weapon in a safe manner and pass the qualification with it. I am certain that we will all have some smart a** attend one of our classes with some ridiculous gun.

 

I just don't think THE LAW requires that they train with the weapon they plan to carry or even a reasonable weapon. I think it is commonsense to train with what you will carry, but should we as instructors require much more than the law requires for people to exercise a constitutional right?

 

Those that really care about learning how to safely carry and use a pistol for defensive purposes will seek out a heck of a lot more training than a state-mandated 16 hour concealed carry license course.

 

 

This is precisely what I was getting at. Good post!

[Ricky Two Guns]

10 yards I could do this with my 686 2.5. I'd be mad if I missed

[jester121]

I don't see the value of including timed reloads in a CCW license qualification test.

 

It's a challenge for range safety officers, and doesn't really factor into self-defense for most people. Purely speculation, but I'd bet the vast majority of permit holders in the US don't carry spare mags with them (heck, a good portion don't even carry a gun regularly, once they find out what a hassle it is). What's the average number shots fired in an armed self-defense situation, 3-5?

 

Yes, I know the importance of practicing reloads, I spend a lot of time working on them for competitions and believe everyone should practice reloads and malfunction drills -- separate from CCW qualification.

[AuroraInstructor]

Guys I just shot the Illinois LE qualification course. it's 50 rounds and out to 25 yards I believe. I shot it with my Kimber ProCarry II and my XDM 3.8 9mm. I scored a 98 on both. I did like they way they set up parts of the shoot.

 

load 3 mags. 6 rounds a piece. The routine was to draw and fire 2 rounds. Then draw and fire 2 rounds. Next was to draw and fire 2 rounds plus 2 rounds from reload using a mag on my belt. You get the idea. There was a timed fire for two parts of it. And I think there are parts that could be incorporated into the carry qualification. It helps show an understanding of the gun, the draw the reload and overall gun handling.

Two things I would like to bring up. First off, the holster-use, while a great idea, brings up some huge liability issues at the range. I was told by one range that my insurance liability limit was not high enough to allow me to have students drawing from a holster..... So that could be an issue right off the bat.

 

Second, if the shooting qualification that you require is anything more than putting the holes in the paper, there could be huge disparities between instructors. One instructor just has shooting, but another requires the holster to be used in order for him to sign you off. Now, applicants have a choice between taking the class and fulfilling the second 8-hour requirement between different instructors - "easy" ones and "hard" ones...

 

Since the law does not mention anything more than accuracy for a shooting requirement, it would seem to me that it could be opening up a can of worms to exceed that.

 

Obviously, nobody is getting to the range with me until, in the classroom before / during / after the lecture, they have satisfied me that they can handle a gun (either mine or an inert training gun) safely... So the range time would be only for accuracy -- that would be a heck of a time to learn that they are careless / dangerous with their gun!

[Federal Farmer]

We'll be doing our holster and magazine reloads in the classroom with SIRTs. Actually performing those drills with live ammunition will probably be an advanced CCW class.

 

Bear in mind that the limiting factor on getting students qualified will be range availability. For a basic CCW course I think limiting the range portion to qualifying will be appropriate.

[Drylok]

I don't see the value of including timed reloads in a CCW license qualification test.

 

It's a challenge for range safety officers, and doesn't really factor into self-defense for most people. Purely speculation, but I'd bet the vast majority of permit holders in the US don't carry spare mags with them (heck, a good portion don't even carry a gun regularly, once they find out what a hassle it is). What's the average number shots fired in an armed self-defense situation, 3-5?

 

Yes, I know the importance of practicing reloads, I spend a lot of time working on them for competitions and believe everyone should practice reloads and malfunction drills -- separate from CCW qualification.

Agreed, needs to be done but kept seperate from LTCH qualification

[Feh]

I'd like to qualify with a Desert Eagle Mark XIX, .50AE.

[spec5]

I don't want my kids shot by a stray bullet from someone who can barely hit a target.

 

I'll say it again, look at the states that do not require live fire or classes of any kind to carry, is this imagined stray bullet issue you perceive more of a problem then states that require testing for carry? If the answer is no then your stray bullet concern is fear based hyperbole...

 

No, and shooting at a target is different than a real defensive situation, so someone who can put 5 shot groups through the ssme hole might not even hit an attacker. You don't know what's going to happen.

 

I support constitutional carry rather than any permit, but I also see people next to me at the range that can barely hit a target. And they will be carrying soon.

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

 

[spec5]

Sorry I messed up the previous post.

 

You might not know what will happen but saying that someone who can put 5 shots in he same hole might not hit the attacker then what then should you say of the person who put no bullets on the qualification target would they then be able to hit the attacker? Just saying. Also, since we can't legally be armed now then no one could put any bullets anywhere except the attacker. What training did the attacker have? Let us have the rights given to the attacker who wants to take away our rights or our life. The attacker still remains armed through our waiting period.

[BIGDEESUL]

Sorry I messed up the previous post.

 

You might not know what will happen but saying that someone who can put 5 shots in he same hole might not hit the attacker then what then should you say of the person who put no bullets on the qualification target would they then be able to hit the attacker? Just saying. Also, since we can't legally be armed now then no one could put any bullets anywhere except the attacker. What training did the attacker have? Let us have the rights given to the attacker who wants to take away our rights or our life. The attacker still remains armed through our waiting period.

 

I don't understand what you're saying here.

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[spec5]

Sorry I messed up the previous post.

 

You might not know what will happen but saying that someone who can put 5 shots in he same hole might not hit the attacker then what then should you say of the person who put no bullets on the qualification target would they then be able to hit the attacker? Just saying. Also, since we can't legally be armed now then no one could put any bullets anywhere except the attacker. What training did the attacker have? Let us have the rights given to the attacker who wants to take away our rights or our life. The attacker still remains armed through our waiting period.

 

I don't understand what you're saying here.

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

We are debating shooting qualification right. The facts are that criminals have no such qualification to pass for their criminal activity yet we are required to qualify to exercise our rights of self defense with a handgun. Also someone under stress you may or may not hit the target. Example police miss all the time in shootings. Another point If you can put all bullets in one in a small part of the target is a plus but no one will know until the time comes if you will hit your target but being able to control your hits in training goes a long way in how you react in whatever situation you might encounter.

[BIGDEESUL]

Sorry I messed up the previous post.

 

You might not know what will happen but saying that someone who can put 5 shots in he same hole might not hit the attacker then what then should you say of the person who put no bullets on the qualification target would they then be able to hit the attacker? Just saying. Also, since we can't legally be armed now then no one could put any bullets anywhere except the attacker. What training did the attacker have? Let us have the rights given to the attacker who wants to take away our rights or our life. The attacker still remains armed through our waiting period.

 

I don't understand what you're saying here.

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

We are debating shooting qualification right. The facts are that criminals have no such qualification to pass for their criminal activity yet we are required to qualify to exercise our rights of self defense with a handgun. Also someone under stress you may or may not hit the target. Example police miss all the time in shootings. Another point If you can put all bullets in one in a small part of the target is a plus but no one will know until the time comes if you will hit your target but being able to control your hits in training goes a long way in how you react in whatever situation you might encounter.

 

Ok I got ya. Drfinitely true.

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[lowrider12]

Guys I just shot the Illinois LE qualification course. it's 50 rounds and out to 25 yards I believe. I shot it with my Kimber ProCarry II and my XDM 3.8 9mm. I scored a 98 on both. I did like they way they set up parts of the shoot.

 

load 3 mags. 6 rounds a piece. The routine was to draw and fire 2 rounds. Then draw and fire 2 rounds. Next was to draw and fire 2 rounds plus 2 rounds from reload using a mag on my belt. You get the idea. There was a timed fire for two parts of it. And I think there are parts that could be incorporated into the carry qualification. It helps show an understanding of the gun, the draw the reload and overall gun handling.

 

sounds like fun, but I don't know any indoor ranges that allow me to draw from holster

[Kylar Stern]

I plan on qualifying with my FN 5.7 I only have to reload once.

[bigbob]

Shoot with what you will be carrying , if you cant hit center mass at 5,7. or 10 yards you should not be carrying . practice, practice ,practice,Sig 228 for me.

[Googe1227]

IIRC, NYPD has a 34% hit ratio, not great at all...

Evidently, 13% is all they get in Pensacola.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/21/us/florida-shot-by-mistake/index.html?c=us

[jkdkaliman101]

Not in my class and I'm going to ask my students to train with the gear and gun or guns they intend to carry.

 

Although I feel that it's best to train with the firearm you plan to carry, any instructor that dictates the firearm(s) I can and can't use won't be my instructor or getting my business...

QFT-ditto

[bob]

It's not even clear from the language that they mean the BLACK part of the target.

 

I agree. IMO, a hit anywhere on the paper should count as written.

[Tvandermyde]

we did a low light shoot, with the squad lights in the background. WOW. they say the the cops only hit about 15% of the time in that case and I had 3 times as many hits 25 out of 50. The factory sights are coming off my 1911 and I'm going to put some night sights on. but it was different. and a interesting learning experience.

[pdpsc]

we did a low light shoot, with the squad lights in the background. WOW. they say the the cops only hit about 15% of the time in that case and I had 3 times as many hits 25 out of 50. The factory sights are coming off my 1911 and I'm going to put some night sights on. but it was different. and a interesting learning experience.

 

You don't want to take the 1911 off of it too and put on a Glock? Kidding, but not really.

[Tvandermyde]

I like my 1911s. I also shot the qualification with my XDM 9mm

[TyGuy]

I like the Tru Glo TFO sights a lot. I know, I know they're Tru Glo, but hey fiber optic with tritium? They work in all lighting conditions.

[pdpsc]

But seriously, a combat pistol should always have night sights.

[Lelandus]

Guess I better get practicing. I'm not very consistent at 25 yards yet.

[BrowningHP]

I like the Tru Glo TFO sights a lot. I know, I know they're Tru Glo, but hey fiber optic with tritium? They work in all lighting conditions.

 

+1, worth the cost.

 

i found one really interesting use of these which i didnt expect: the location of my bedside piece is very visible at night even in darkness. I was always thinking the main benefit is sight picture, but it also gives me instant spatial awareness (the rear sight is exposed), so i can draw very quickly even waking up groggy in pitch black

 

I wonder how something like that would look on a 1911. maybe not beautiful, but practical!

[Jim Smyth]

This course shouldn't be overly complicated. Were not training Law Enforcement Officers or Military here. There are many States that dont even require any live fire training. Basic shooting skills and basic competence is all thats needed. If you start trying to introduce drawing from a holster your setting yourself up for a lot of AD's at the range and I dont want to be there for that!

[mata777]

I have begun to shrink the size of my paper targets. Aim small, miss small. I'm not sure which of my guns I will use for qulification yet.