Do not panic or worry until it's necessary

[SycamoreRuger]

Most of the bad, bad stuff falls under firearm safety and makes an excellent argument for buying more guns / ammo / magazines before he takes office (hopefully he won't). I could foresee them passing a really bad gun dealer licensing bill that puts small FFLs out of business. I could foresee them banning modern sporting rifles, magazines with capacities above some arbitrary number, and bump stocks. I could foresee them passing large tax increases on firearms, ammunition, and etc. I could foresee them trying to restrict concealed carry and increasing penalties / fees as much as they think they can get by with too.

 

 

I am keeping a list of guns I want to buy on Wednesday, Nov. 7 if JB wins. Hopefully I will get to keep them, but maybe I won't. In any event I want to beat the potential gun taxes (Molly reminded us in June that Pritzker advocated for a 100% tax on handguns and ammunition when he ran for Congress in 1997).

 

One question: Is there a law preventing Illinois residents from going to Wisconsin to sell guns either at a gun shop or gun show?

 

 

[Ranger]

Sycamore: Please keep in mind that FFLs have to report if buy multiple handguns within set period of time. I don't remember the details; but might want to check into and space out if that is the case.

[soylentgreen]

 

Holy cow man, use your head. Anything Rauner has done bad will be amplified a hundred times over by JB, guaranteed. He is campaigning on it. When abortion laws become looser (and they will with a socialist at the helm), it will be because JB has rubber stamped it through. Why would you want to help a situation in which as above you mention that we all become felons? The values ship has sailed, the primaries are over. We are in the for the fight of a lifetime. Why help create a worse situation for your babies to have to deal with?

 

ETA, you know how everyone likes to say "it's never as bad as you think it will be"? I predict that it will be even worse than we think with JB. With Madigan, the democrats and all of the weak republicans that we seem to have these days, it's gonna be really bad. At least Rauner would be a speed bump.

 

 

I am using my head. I'm not going to participate in advancing ta man who will use my money to murder babies. JB didn't do that. Rauner did. Tell me...exactly how would JB "create a worse situation your babies have to deal with", to use your words? Start paying for abortions AND giving bonus checks to the women getting them?? Please tell me. I'm very interested to know. It seems to me Rauner gave the pro-abortion crowd everything they wanted...and I can guarantee none of them plan to vote for him. So what was the point?

 

Let me repeat...I WILL NOT participate in re-electing a man who involved me in baby murder.

 

It's honestly a moot argument anyway. JB is going to be governor and it doesn't matter who I vote for. JB will get 51% or more of the vote. That means it does not matter who I vote for.

[soundguy]

Soylentgreen has his own valid reasons not to vote for Rauner.

I might think they are foolish notions, but I'm a D most of the time.

If I felt Choice was under attack, I might rethink things, but I fear for gun rights at this time.

So... I respect the position of soylentgreen.

I do not think the election of JBP is a done deal.

 

 

Vote Rauner

...if you can.

[crufflesmuth]

Soylentgreen has his own valid reasons not to vote for Rauner.

I might think they are foolish notions, but I'm a D most of the time.

If I felt Choice was under attack, I might rethink things, but I fear for gun rights at this time.

So... I respect the position of soylentgreen.

I do not think the election of JBP is a done deal.

 

 

Vote Rauner

...if you can.

 

Agreed. There are a lot of moderates and Dems who don't want to see it all go to the machine.

[soundguy]

 

Soylentgreen has his own valid reasons not to vote for Rauner.

I might think they are foolish notions, but I'm a D most of the time.

If I felt Choice was under attack, I might rethink things, but I fear for gun rights at this time.

So... I respect the position of soylentgreen.

I do not think the election of JBP is a done deal.

 

 

Vote Rauner

...if you can.

 

Agreed. There are a lot of moderates and Dems who don't want to see it all go to the machine.

 

 

I chatted with my 76yo-female-middle class-lifelong D-anti gun neighbor.

Hates JBP

Hates Madigan

Hates Preckwinkle

Hates Alderman Arena

 

Voting Rauner

...again!

 

Not fond of Trump or Kavanaugh either, but that's a different thread.

[crufflesmuth]

 

 

Holy cow man, use your head. Anything Rauner has done bad will be amplified a hundred times over by JB, guaranteed. He is campaigning on it. When abortion laws become looser (and they will with a socialist at the helm), it will be because JB has rubber stamped it through. Why would you want to help a situation in which as above you mention that we all become felons? The values ship has sailed, the primaries are over. We are in the for the fight of a lifetime. Why help create a worse situation for your babies to have to deal with?

 

ETA, you know how everyone likes to say "it's never as bad as you think it will be"? I predict that it will be even worse than we think with JB. With Madigan, the democrats and all of the weak republicans that we seem to have these days, it's gonna be really bad. At least Rauner would be a speed bump.

 

 

I am using my head. I'm not going to participate in advancing ta man who will use my money to murder babies. JB didn't do that. Rauner did. Tell me...exactly how would JB "create a worse situation your babies have to deal with", to use your words? Start paying for abortions AND giving bonus checks to the women getting them?? Please tell me. I'm very interested to know. It seems to me Rauner gave the pro-abortion crowd everything they wanted...and I can guarantee none of them plan to vote for him. So what was the point?

 

Let me repeat...I WILL NOT participate in re-electing a man who involved me in baby murder.

 

It's honestly a moot argument anyway. JB is going to be governor and it doesn't matter who I vote for. JB will get 51% or more of the vote. That means it does not matter who I vote for.

 

 

I can understand not voting for Rauner because he crossed the line for you (abortion funding), I guess what everyone is trying to point out is that it will literally get worse. I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it: I stopped being a conservative for reasons like this, conservatives never 'conserve' anything and only know how to lose in the most elegant, poignant manner. Regardless, I still respect you for sticking to your views/beliefs. Maybe you're right, maybe it's already a done deal - or maybe it's not. What I do know is that we did not get CCW, or any other progress, by adopting the mentality that everything was 'done deal' and accepting the illusions our opponents would have us believe. I hope Rauner wins, if only stop the machine, and if only to stop things from getting worse. If we're to demand morality from politics, it will never happen so long as feminism is allowed.

[Ashdump]

 

Holy cow man, use your head. Anything Rauner has done bad will be amplified a hundred times over by JB, guaranteed. He is campaigning on it. When abortion laws become looser (and they will with a socialist at the helm), it will be because JB has rubber stamped it through. Why would you want to help a situation in which as above you mention that we all become felons? The values ship has sailed, the primaries are over. We are in the for the fight of a lifetime. Why help create a worse situation for your babies to have to deal with?

ETA, you know how everyone likes to say "it's never as bad as you think it will be"? I predict that it will be even worse than we think with JB. With Madigan, the democrats and all of the weak republicans that we seem to have these days, it's gonna be really bad. At least Rauner would be a speed bump.

 

I am using my head. I'm not going to participate in advancing ta man who will use my money to murder babies. JB didn't do that. Rauner did. Tell me...exactly how would JB "create a worse situation your babies have to deal with", to use your words? Start paying for abortions AND giving bonus checks to the women getting them?? Please tell me. I'm very interested to know. It seems to me Rauner gave the pro-abortion crowd everything they wanted...and I can guarantee none of them plan to vote for him. So what was the point?

Let me repeat...I WILL NOT participate in re-electing a man who involved me in baby murder.

It's honestly a moot argument anyway. JB is going to be governor and it doesn't matter who I vote for. JB will get 51% or more of the vote. That means it does not matter who I vote for.

Obviously I'm not going to be able to reason with you. I just don't see how anyone can't see what the crux of matter is here. I come from a Christian family where faith matters more than anything. All of us have taken careful consideration of everything and the only logical thing to do at this point is vote for Rauner. You don't want to fund planned parenthood? Me neither, but guess what, you'll be paying even more of your money to these programs with JB's tax hikes. Think about that. It does matter who you vote for. There is no way of knowing how close the election will be until the polling places close on election day. I'd hate to give it away to JB over a few votes. It wont be punishing Rauner, it will be punishing all of us. I respect your beliefs. I too abhore abortion. I just can't make any sense of how allowing somebody like JB to effectively get your vote remedies anything?

[TRJ]

Obviously I'm not going to be able to reason with you. I just don't see how anyone can't see what the crux of matter is here. I come from a Christian family where faith matters more than anything. All of us have taken careful consideration of everything and the only logical thing to do at this point is vote for Rauner. You don't want to fund planned parenthood? Me neither, but guess what, you'll be paying even more of your money to these programs with JB's tax hikes. Think about that. It does matter who you vote for. There is no way of knowing how close the election will be until the polling places close on election day. I'd hate to give it away to JB over a few votes. It wont be punishing Rauner, it will be punishing all of us. I respect your beliefs. I too abhore abortion. I just can't make any sense of how allowing somebody like JB to effectively get your vote remedies anything?

Well said. I agree.

[crufflesmuth]

 

 

Soylentgreen has his own valid reasons not to vote for Rauner.

I might think they are foolish notions, but I'm a D most of the time.

If I felt Choice was under attack, I might rethink things, but I fear for gun rights at this time.

So... I respect the position of soylentgreen.

I do not think the election of JBP is a done deal.

 

 

Vote Rauner

...if you can.

 

Agreed. There are a lot of moderates and Dems who don't want to see it all go to the machine.

 

 

I chatted with my 76yo-female-middle class-lifelong D-anti gun neighbor.

Hates JBP

Hates Madigan

Hates Preckwinkle

Hates Alderman Arena

 

Voting Rauner

...again!

 

Not fond of Trump or Kavanaugh either, but that's a different thread.

 

 

This. People are not taking into account Democrats from Cook County that hate the Chicago machine, especially the working class Democrats. Remember the soda tax? Lots of Democrats in Cook County hated it. It's not all cut and dry. We can put up a good fight, and that is what we should be doing.

[lowhouse5]

 

 

 

Holy cow man, use your head. Anything Rauner has done bad will be amplified a hundred times over by JB, guaranteed. He is campaigning on it. When abortion laws become looser (and they will with a socialist at the helm), it will be because JB has rubber stamped it through. Why would you want to help a situation in which as above you mention that we all become felons? The values ship has sailed, the primaries are over. We are in the for the fight of a lifetime. Why help create a worse situation for your babies to have to deal with?

 

ETA, you know how everyone likes to say "it's never as bad as you think it will be"? I predict that it will be even worse than we think with JB. With Madigan, the democrats and all of the weak republicans that we seem to have these days, it's gonna be really bad. At least Rauner would be a speed bump.

 

 

I am using my head. I'm not going to participate in advancing ta man who will use my money to murder babies. JB didn't do that. Rauner did. Tell me...exactly how would JB "create a worse situation your babies have to deal with", to use your words? Start paying for abortions AND giving bonus checks to the women getting them?? Please tell me. I'm very interested to know. It seems to me Rauner gave the pro-abortion crowd everything they wanted...and I can guarantee none of them plan to vote for him. So what was the point?

 

Let me repeat...I WILL NOT participate in re-electing a man who involved me in baby murder.

 

It's honestly a moot argument anyway. JB is going to be governor and it doesn't matter who I vote for. JB will get 51% or more of the vote. That means it does not matter who I vote for.

 

 

I can understand not voting for Rauner because he crossed the line for you (abortion funding), I guess what everyone is trying to point out is that it will literally get worse. I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it: I stopped being a conservative for reasons like this, conservatives never 'conserve' anything and only know how to lose in the most elegant, poignant manner. Regardless, I still respect you for sticking to your views/beliefs. Maybe you're right, maybe it's already a done deal - or maybe it's not. What I do know is that we did not get CCW, or any other progress, by adopting the mentality that everything was 'done deal' and accepting the illusions our opponents would have us believe. I hope Rauner wins, if only stop the machine, and if only to stop things from getting worse. If we're to demand morality from politics, it will never happen so long as feminism is allowed.

 

I bolded the part of your post that I don't understand. Could you elaborate please?

[TomKoz]

Toxic masculinity ??

[soylentgreen]

 

Obviously I'm not going to be able to reason with you. I just don't see how anyone can't see what the crux of matter is here. I come from a Christian family where faith matters more than anything. All of us have taken careful consideration of everything and the only logical thing to do at this point is vote for Rauner. You don't want to fund planned parenthood? Me neither, but guess what, you'll be paying even more of your money to these programs with JB's tax hikes. Think about that. It does matter who you vote for. There is no way of knowing how close the election will be until the polling places close on election day. I'd hate to give it away to JB over a few votes. It wont be punishing Rauner, it will be punishing all of us. I respect your beliefs. I too abhore abortion. I just can't make any sense of how allowing somebody like JB to effectively get your vote remedies anything?

 

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what JB will do that's worse than what Rauner has already done.

[GTX63]

Soylentgreen has his own valid reasons not to vote for Rauner.

I might think they are foolish notions, but I'm a D most of the time.

If I felt Choice was under attack, I might rethink things, but I fear for gun rights at this time.

So... I respect the position of soylentgreen.

I do not think the election of JBP is a done deal.

 

 

Vote Rauner

...if you can.

 

Our intention is to be gone from this state by the middle of next year but I am voting. I'll agree that Soylentgreen's reasons are valid.

I am as pro life as they come. I believe life is at conception. That doesn't make me a nutjob or an extremist and I'm not a single issue voter; moreso maybe a traditionalist.

My view, which for me I believe is Biblical, is that God knows we live in a land ruled by secularists and that isn't being pragmatic.

Yes, my tax dollars fund abortion, so I am already participating.

There are plenty of pro life Catholic/Christian illegals stuffing the ballot box, priests like Phfleger, Jesse Jackson, etc, liberal Christians and on and on.

The system is not a system based on values that people like Soylentgreen hold as a priority. It may be a poor analogy, but it is to me like walking into a bar and refusing to leave until they serve you milk. One can refuse to participate in the system, but the system does not allow you to remove yourself from the consequences, nor the rules nor the penalties.

[Raw Power]

 

 

Obviously I'm not going to be able to reason with you. I just don't see how anyone can't see what the crux of matter is here. I come from a Christian family where faith matters more than anything. All of us have taken careful consideration of everything and the only logical thing to do at this point is vote for Rauner. You don't want to fund planned parenthood? Me neither, but guess what, you'll be paying even more of your money to these programs with JB's tax hikes. Think about that. It does matter who you vote for. There is no way of knowing how close the election will be until the polling places close on election day. I'd hate to give it away to JB over a few votes. It wont be punishing Rauner, it will be punishing all of us. I respect your beliefs. I too abhore abortion. I just can't make any sense of how allowing somebody like JB to effectively get your vote remedies anything?

 

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what JB will do that's worse than what Rauner has already done.

 

 

Ban all of your semi-auto rifles, and try to make you register all of your firearms.

[Ashdump]

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what JB will do that's worse than what Rauner has already done.

 

In case you missed it, increased spending on social programs including those that provide abortion services, i.e., more dead babies. If you think he's going to pay down the deficit with those tax hikes, then I've got some ocean front property in Bloomington that I'd like to sell you. I don't know how to spell it out any more clearly than that. It will in fact, get worse in every possible way with JB.

[crufflesmuth]

 

Abortion would never have happened without feminism in America. Never. If all our society does is contribute to an ideology that puts one gender (women) above the other (men), and always deviates to that gender - whether that is in law, culture, or courts - how can you expect morality? For morality to exist, you need natural law and consequences to also exist. Feminism and our culture negate those consequences to where they (consequences) don't show up until its too late. I would argue feminism hurts women more today, than it does men.

 

Women are told a career is the only source of meaning, not a family and they are told men are rapists who can't be trusted (seeing the Kavanuagh hearings really drove this home to me). In short feminism encourages segregation of the sexes, scapegoating men and gives working and middle-class women a vision that is impossible: high paying career and then kids after the woman has passed the age where statistically a child she gives birth to has less of a chance of numerous defects and mental issues (30). You can't have it all, and I say that as someone that is debt-free, and about to graduate into a decent paying field. So what happens? When you tell the women of my generation, when they are five or ten that they don't need men, to be aggressive and achieve (behave like men), while crapping on men and drugging them as they grow up, with amphetamine based drugs, you're going to have conflict - both in morality and culture. Why do I not care about morality? because the side demanding it (women) refuse to be responsible or take responsibility, and as a group defer to government and identity politics to blame away, instead of admitting the idealism they give legitimacy to is wrong on its face and in the course of practice. Look at the groups who will not support Rauner, mainly the ones who supported Ives, they are predominately women - not a problem, but these are the same women who before I was born, and probably growing up, enabled this environment - the women who perpetrated gurl power and boys drool girls rule; years later, these same women that have enabled the system (some not all), they're going to ask me to be morally outraged? they're going to ask me to care about something they have 100% enabled culturally? I just won't buy it.

 

There is no equality in life, whether that is the cosmos, biology, botany, chemistry or any other field - there is such thing as equilibrium but that too is ignored.

 

It's one thing to have multiple partners, and use birth control but its quite another for feminists to demand that men ignore natural law. One of the posters mentioned he is disgusted that he's a baby killer, because of the taxes he is forced to pay - well, if women did not have feminism we would not be in this situation, where the welfare state is the husband and ultimate arbitrator of power. Everything in society today is not natural, nor is it in correlation with its natural state. Their is no moral responsibility for any man in the West, we've ceded all of our social capital, power and influence to women in the hopes they would be just like us and be responsible but somewhere it went wrong - and our society reflects that. Abortion funding is exclusively by and for women, most tax payer funded structures benefit women - that's just how it is with the current status quo. Men will be used as the tax paying livestock, pay more in taxes than they get out. Am I worried morally about funding abortion? no, because the people and group who act on that option are not me, they're not even politicians - they're all women: those are the people who are morally at fault, women who perpetrate and enable the environment. Men are forced at gun point to fund these things against their conscience, and last I checked, duress excuses a man morally from many things. Without women Roe v. Wade would never have happened, and likewise, without women it's legacy would have failed long ago. That is my answer.

[GWBH]

Adding to Ashdump's post...

 

JB, like most dems, love social programs funded by tax dollars. That's how they funnel money to those that have contributed to their campaigns.

All that violence nonsense he has on his website won't do a thing and they all know it. It's just aimed to the base to make them "feel good" about voting for him.

...and by the way, the Illinois government is a little short on airplanes these days. They don't like to take turns flying their families and buddies to places on our dime.

[lowhouse5]

 

 

Abortion would never have happened without feminism in America. Never. If all our society does is contribute to an ideology that puts one gender (women) above the other (men), and always deviates to that gender - whether that is in law, culture, or courts - how can you expect morality? For morality to exist, you need natural law and consequences to also exist. Feminism and our culture negate those consequences to where they (consequences) don't show up until its too late. I would argue feminism hurts women more today, than it does men.

 

Women are told a career is the only source of meaning, not a family and they are told men are rapists who can't be trusted (seeing the Kavanuagh hearings really drove this home to me). In short feminism encourages segregation of the sexes, scapegoating men and gives working and middle-class women a vision that is impossible: high paying career and then kids after the woman has passed the age where statistically a child she gives birth to has less of a chance of numerous defects and mental issues (30). You can't have it all, and I say that as someone that is debt-free, and about to graduate into a decent paying field. So what happens? When you tell the women of my generation, when they are five or ten that they don't need men, to be aggressive and achieve (behave like men), while crapping on men and drugging them as they grow up, with amphetamine based drugs, you're going to have conflict - both in morality and culture. Why do I not care about morality? because the side demanding it (women) refuse to be responsible or take responsibility, and as a group defer to government and identity politics to blame away, instead of admitting the idealism they give legitimacy to is wrong on its face and in the course of practice. Look at the groups who will not support Rauner, mainly the ones who supported Ives, they are predominately women - not a problem, but these are the same women who before I was born, and probably growing up, enabled this environment - the women who perpetrated gurl power and boys drool girls rule; years later, these same women that have enabled the system (some not all), they're going to ask me to be morally outraged? they're going to ask me to care about something they have 100% enabled culturally? I just won't buy it.

 

There is no equality in life, whether that is the cosmos, biology, botany, chemistry or any other field - there is such thing as equilibrium but that too is ignored.

 

It's one thing to have multiple partners, and use birth control but its quite another for feminists to demand that men ignore natural law. One of the posters mentioned he is disgusted that he's a baby killer, because of the taxes he is forced to pay - well, if women did not have feminism we would not be in this situation, where the welfare state is the husband and ultimate arbitrator of power. Everything in society today is not natural, nor is it in correlation with its natural state. Their is no moral responsibility for any man in the West, we've ceded all of our social capital, power and influence to women in the hopes they would be just like us and be responsible but somewhere it went wrong - and our society reflects that. Abortion funding is exclusively by and for women, most tax payer funded structures benefit women - that's just how it is with the current status quo. Men will be used as the tax paying livestock, pay more in taxes than they get out. Am I worried morally about funding abortion? no, because the people and group who act on that option are not me, they're not even politicians - they're all women: those are the people who are morally at fault, women who perpetrate and enable the environment. Men are forced at gun point to fund these things against their conscience, and last I checked, duress excuses a man morally from many things. Without women Roe v. Wade would never have happened, and likewise, without women it's legacy would have failed long ago. That is my answer.

 

We disagree but I appreciate that you answered my question.

[crufflesmuth]

 

 

Obviously I'm not going to be able to reason with you. I just don't see how anyone can't see what the crux of matter is here. I come from a Christian family where faith matters more than anything. All of us have taken careful consideration of everything and the only logical thing to do at this point is vote for Rauner. You don't want to fund planned parenthood? Me neither, but guess what, you'll be paying even more of your money to these programs with JB's tax hikes. Think about that. It does matter who you vote for. There is no way of knowing how close the election will be until the polling places close on election day. I'd hate to give it away to JB over a few votes. It wont be punishing Rauner, it will be punishing all of us. I respect your beliefs. I too abhore abortion. I just can't make any sense of how allowing somebody like JB to effectively get your vote remedies anything?

 

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what JB will do that's worse than what Rauner has already done.

 

 

 

Ban every weapon you own, and then put you in a position where you lose your house and retirement, because you have to pay legal fees to defend yourself. Even if you win in court, the fees you will pay unless you're upper middle class will put you in the poor house and your family. Yes, keep believing that probable cause nonsense, the moment you have to defend yourself in court - even if you're right - will make you pay a price. This is the same logic when Obama was running, people said it can't be that bad, and then he pivoted to abortion funding schemes, gay rights and pushing gun control. Conservatives are losers in a world and society that does not care about morality, much less religion. If politics was an exam, conservatives would be the ones complaining about how they only got a 70 instead of 100: winning trumps losing. Conservatives did not conserve marriage, borders, language or culture so I'm done supporting them, I will support whoever wins and has the will to win: whether that is Trump or Rauner I am tired of losing.

[lowhouse5]

 

 

 

Obviously I'm not going to be able to reason with you. I just don't see how anyone can't see what the crux of matter is here. I come from a Christian family where faith matters more than anything. All of us have taken careful consideration of everything and the only logical thing to do at this point is vote for Rauner. You don't want to fund planned parenthood? Me neither, but guess what, you'll be paying even more of your money to these programs with JB's tax hikes. Think about that. It does matter who you vote for. There is no way of knowing how close the election will be until the polling places close on election day. I'd hate to give it away to JB over a few votes. It wont be punishing Rauner, it will be punishing all of us. I respect your beliefs. I too abhore abortion. I just can't make any sense of how allowing somebody like JB to effectively get your vote remedies anything?

 

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what JB will do that's worse than what Rauner has already done.

 

 

 

Ban every weapon you own, and then put you in a position where you lose your house and retirement, because you have to pay legal fees to defend yourself. Even if you win in court, the fees you will pay unless you're upper middle class will put you in the poor house and your family. Yes, keep believing that probable cause nonsense, the moment you have to defend yourself in court - even if you're right - will make you pay a price. This is the same logic when Obama was running, people said it can't be that bad, and then he pivoted to abortion funding schemes, gay rights and pushing gun control. Conservatives are losers in a world and society that does not care about morality, much less religion. If politics was an exam, conservatives would be the ones complaining about how they only got a 70 instead of 100: winning trumps losing. Conservatives did not conserve marriage, borders, language or culture so I'm done supporting them, I will support whoever wins and has the will to win: whether that is Trump or Rauner I am tired of losing.

Bolded again.

I'm not trying to stir something up because I really want to understand where you are coming from. Could you elaborate on gay rights please?

And there is no effing way I'm not voting for Rauner.

I just appreciate reading about the variety of views here.

[soundguy]

Abortion would never have happened without feminism in America. Never.

 

Without women Roe v. Wade would never have happened, and likewise, without women it's legacy would have failed long ago. That is my answer.

 

Yikes!

I think you are so wrong, in so many ways. But, to your first graph in a well written piece-

 

Abortion has been around since the beginning of human time in nearly all cultures... ancient and modern. Roe v Wade only ensured that abortion could be performed in a safe way, to prevent the horrible death and sickness of the woman who did not want to carry a child. That's her choice. Not mine. Not yours. And certainly not the choice of "conservatives". It was a small nod to equality. And no one is required to have one. It's a choice.

 

Legal medical abortion is far better than squatting over a pot of boiling water, ingesting natural poisons from plants, hard labor during pregnany or beating the abdomen until miscarriage is induced. Not to mention the back alley coat hanger method.

We aren't going back to that.

Ever.

 

As a man, I support a woman's right to choose... because I want to keep mine.

We are equal.

 

Fortunately, we are also charmingly different!

[Raw Power]

Without women Roe v. Wade would never have happened, and likewise, without women it's legacy would have failed long ago. That is my answer.

 

 

Without women, you wouldn't be here.

[Lou]

Have you guys tried this site? They have some wonderful topic specific forums.

 

http://www.debatepolitics.com/

[crufflesmuth]

Many conservatives voted for Obama, because he 'believed' in marriage being between a man and a woman, obviously it was a political lie and while I am not conservative, it just shows how absurd conservatism has become. If conservatives wanted to defend marriage, they would not focus on the religious aspect of traditional marriage, but the societal aspects - they never did, or I never saw it. Marriage should never be defined by the state - that was the straw that broke it for me being a conservative. Only faith communities should define marriage, aside from the common law custom. We also need to get away from marriage licenses altogether, the only reason we have them in the first place is because they were used to prohibit interracial marriage. Also, 'gay rights' really speaks to how pathetic our society has become, there are no 'gay rights', there are only conclusions made by people in black robes in SCOTUS that have no solid common law or constitutional basis whatsoever. Obergfell was not based on gay people being persecuted, it was based on a tax issue. So for me, whether its gay rights, or abortion rights it just speaks to the pathetic nature of American society - individuals should have rights, not groups - but tribalized groups and identity politics seem to be where we're headed. Also, is a gay person really free today? if they can't defend themselves with the best rifle (AR-15) and if they can't carry a gun, or regular magazine capacity I would say no - especially with this mass immigration from the middle east, cultures that are not friendly to gays. None of these rights matter: whether gay or abortion rights - the only thing that matters is being able to defend yourself - it was true during Jim Crow and true today. If the government can give gay people rights, it can take them away - we're finding that out with the possibility of Roe v. Wade being overturned (partially why the left freaked out over Kavanaugh), you just can't create rights out of judicial fiat and not expect them to disintegrate eventually - either you amend the constitution or you end up somewhere down the road where this happens. Personally, I could care less what people do, just don't force it and propagandize it on children, the general populace and stop pushing straight people around with these lawsuits from rich gay couples. That's my take on it.

[lowhouse5]

Lou is right.

If the Illinois house isn't in session this place becomes like a puppy that lost its chew toy and starts gnawing on the carpet.

[crufflesmuth]

 

Abortion would never have happened without feminism in America. Never.

 

Without women Roe v. Wade would never have happened, and likewise, without women it's legacy would have failed long ago. That is my answer.

 

Yikes!

I think you are so wrong, in so many ways. But, to your first graph in a well written piece-

 

Abortion has been around since the beginning of human time in nearly all cultures... ancient and modern. Roe v Wade only ensured that abortion could be performed in a safe way, to prevent the horrible death and sickness of the woman who did not want to carry a child. That's her choice. Not mine. Not yours. And certainly not the choice of "conservatives". It was a small nod to equality. And no one is required to have one. It's a choice.

 

Legal medical abortion is far better than squatting over a pot of boiling water, ingesting natural poisons from plants, hard labor during pregnany or beating the abdomen until miscarriage is induced. Not to mention the back alley coat hanger method.

We aren't going back to that.

Ever.

 

As a man, I support a woman's right to choose... because I want to keep mine.

We are equal.

 

Fortunately, we are also charmingly different!

 

 

Roe v. Wade was decided on the issue of privacy, that is the only way they were able to get around the ban, and then the prenumbias and other nonsense really was pathetic reasoning, if there is no constitutional right then use the process and create one but don't use poor judicial reasoning to arrive at conclusions that are not based in case law, much less common law. If you look at common law, and case law, there is no calculus for a right to an abortion, SCOTUS created that in poor legal reasoning. Under common law, they considered life to start from the moment of birth and not conception so there are some differences. You can't call abortion murder under common law, for that reason, but by the same token, there is no 'right' to abortion in that sense (at least in my understanding).Yes, abortion has been around since the dawn of time, the difference is that it was viewed and regulated as a privilege, not a right. Abortion has gone from being an extreme out, to being overused, abused and a right of passage for most American women: I find that reprehensible especially considering the birth control alternatives of today which don't place an individual in a such a large moral situation.

[TomKoz]

IN

[crufflesmuth]

 

Abortion would never have happened without feminism in America. Never.

 

Without women Roe v. Wade would never have happened, and likewise, without women it's legacy would have failed long ago. That is my answer.

 

Yikes!

I think you are so wrong, in so many ways. But, to your first graph in a well written piece-

 

Abortion has been around since the beginning of human time in nearly all cultures... ancient and modern. Roe v Wade only ensured that abortion could be performed in a safe way, to prevent the horrible death and sickness of the woman who did not want to carry a child. That's her choice. Not mine. Not yours. And certainly not the choice of "conservatives". It was a small nod to equality. And no one is required to have one. It's a choice.

 

Legal medical abortion is far better than squatting over a pot of boiling water, ingesting natural poisons from plants, hard labor during pregnany or beating the abdomen until miscarriage is induced. Not to mention the back alley coat hanger method.

We aren't going back to that.

Ever.

 

As a man, I support a woman's right to choose... because I want to keep mine.

We are equal.

 

Fortunately, we are also charmingly different!

 

 

When women stop attacking my right to a full-feature AR-15 (I'm looking at you Mom's Against Gun Violence) and when they stop labelling millennial men rapists, and take responsibility for themselves by paying for their own abortions maybe I'll stop supporting abortion regulations but until then, it's only fair that what you do on one side is down to the other on both sides of the equation (my opinion). Want to ban AR's? be my guest, just don't expect me to protect your precious right to abortion when you're taking my right to defend myself against things with longer lasting consequences than an inconvenient child birth (oh, I don't know a tyrannical government that could ban abortion altogether?) In any case, I'm sorry if I am boring some of the posters here, I'm responding to questions I don't want to veer too much off topic. In either case, we should worry about what we can control and some some omnious possibility that Jabba the Hutt might win, the future is fluid.

[crufflesmuth]

 

Without women Roe v. Wade would never have happened, and likewise, without women it's legacy would have failed long ago. That is my answer.

 

 

Without women, you wouldn't be here.

 

 

I am not lamenting women per se, I am lamenting women who are giving support and legitimacy to an idealism (feminism) that has no basis at all in natural law or reality. Feminism presumes if you say we're all equal, despite very real and different psychological and physical differences that we're all equal - biology and physical differences say otherwise. There is no equality in nature, but there is equilibrium - opposite forces balance themselves out. Men and women are uniquely different, no matter how much post-modern group think exists, and instead of us all fooling ourselves, we should celebrate those differences and embrace how we both can balance each other out. If we're all equal, why do women excel in some areas of study where men do not? Equality only works for the law, but in everything else its shaky unless you socially condition people constantly to believe in it. If communism failed to address economic equality, then what makes anyone think feminism will make right inequalities between men and women that are a byproduct of the real differences between us? Plenty of women on youtube also do not like feminism, many are waking up to what I see which is an idealism predicated on shaky abstract principles that do not bear themselves out in real life, without the force of government and social conditioning. I don't hate women, I hate an idealism that in my view, has no basis in biology, natural law or evolution, and claims it will make us all whole and equal, when real life and our biological history says otherwise. In either event, this is the last comment i'll answer in respect to some of the other posters who are getting irritated I'm going off topic to answer some questions. If anyone wants to ask me more questions, feel free to PM me, I don't want to get further off topic.