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IL CCW Trainer Curriculum Questions


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#61 mjw45

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:34 AM

Question for the ISP:

What provision, if any, is being made for out of state permit applicants to get their prints done? Will out of state applicants, without a trip to IL and a Live Scan vendor, be required to wait the additional 30 days for approval using paper prints or will paper prints, perhaps done by a law enforcement agency located near to the applicants home, be adequate to prevent undue delay?


I believe I read some where that there is a provision to take paper prints and then a livescan vendor can scan them in.

Try looking in some of the finger print threads, possibly this one-
Fingerprinting for CCI thread

Matt
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#62 2atrainers

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:43 AM

Matt - Thanks for your help. I asked the same question in another thread but there was only conjecture for an answer. I have looked here in the forum and at the ISP site extensively for a more concrete answer but have found none. That's why I'd like to have the question posed directly to the ISP. Again, thanks.

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#63 Beezil

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:52 AM

yeah, thanks matt for consolidating the info and associated threads.

very helpful.

take care

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#64 mjw45

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:54 AM

Matt - Thanks for your help. I asked the same question in another thread but there was only conjecture for an answer. I have looked here in the forum and at the ISP site extensively for a more concrete answer but have found none. That's why I'd like to have the question posed directly to the ISP. Again, thanks.

Erich
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Added to the list of questions for todd and I've Im'd PDPSC for his input.

Matt
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#65 2atrainers

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:56 AM

Matt - thank you.

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#66 mjw45

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:57 AM

yeah, thanks matt for consolidating the info and associated threads.

very helpful.

take care


This forum and it's members have done so much for us it's the least I can do.
I hate to admit it, but I didn't really get involved in the fight for CCW until just last year, and even then I feel like I haven't done my share.
And it started out as just trying to get info together for myself, so it was kind of self serving. Just figured instead of making a checklist for myself I could offer it to the forum and get it Fact checked.

Matt
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#67 mjw45

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:26 AM

According to PDPSC (our resident Live Scan vendor/expert), there is no mechanism for submitting fingerprints without visiting a live scan vendor.

More for Todd to work on.

Matt
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#68 semper1911

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:45 AM

Personal I got scanned today and well worth the hour drive, in and done 10 minutes.

#69 cjvandyke

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:55 PM

My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable?


Not as it stands right now.

Have you looked at the Concealed Carry License Curriculum Approval Form?


The second 8 hours is completely IL specific with time restrictions, no relation to any other currently available class.

Todd will have more info for us in the future.

Matt

Are they time restrictions or minimums? Minimums are to me a guideline just like the NRA courses which have minimums. Also, you can add to the class as long as you don't not remove any of the nra material. So in reality, the 16hr ISP course could turn into a 20 hr course with everything included as well as questions/breaks/lunch etc.

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#70 bobapunk

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:05 PM

Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8.

The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it.

My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one?

Edited by bobapunk, 03 September 2013 - 01:07 PM.


#71 bigdudez25

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:58 PM

My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable?


Not as it stands right now.

Have you looked at the Concealed Carry License Curriculum Approval Form?


The second 8 hours is completely IL specific with time restrictions, no relation to any other currently available class.

Todd will have more info for us in the future.

Matt

Makes sense. Numbers 4 and 5 seem to be Illinois specific. Is there a certification process such as a quiz for potential instructors to test their knowledge of the ccw legislation? Or do they just trust that you know it?

#72 Molly B.

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:53 PM

Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8.

The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it.

My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one?


No. Just one.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#73 Molly B.

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:54 PM

My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable?


Not as it stands right now.

Have you looked at the Concealed Carry License Curriculum Approval Form?


The second 8 hours is completely IL specific with time restrictions, no relation to any other currently available class.

Todd will have more info for us in the future.

Matt

Makes sense. Numbers 4 and 5 seem to be Illinois specific. Is there a certification process such as a quiz for potential instructors to test their knowledge of the ccw legislation? Or do they just trust that you know it?


No test. No quiz. Just fill out the form, provide your credentials.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#74 Molly B.

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:57 PM

I think you guys are worried about Utah course. I am not going to accept it. If it is not 8 hours then I won't accept it


You don't accept anything. You teach your course, period. The student submits all their certificates equaling 16 hours of approved courses to the ISP.

If you have a prerequisite course the students must have before they take your course, that's up to you.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#75 bobapunk

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:45 PM

Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8.

The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it.

My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one?


No. Just one.


THANKS!

#76 Carry Trainer

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 05:55 PM

We went through our two courses; NACFI's Il Carry Course and NACFI's Basic Handgun course and found that our Basic Course works very well for 1-3. It also picks up some of section 5.

Our Carry course cover much more than what is required. If it ends up being more that 8 hours, so be it. If the basic course ends up being a little short of 8 hours, so be it. I went through the NACFI courses and marked the slides where the material desired is covered. We can defend our curriculum as discussing every item on the list. We will discuss the items the way we believe they need to be presented. We will synthesize some into principles that will be easy for students to remember.

We will focus on what the student needs to know and do to stay 10% within the law. Listing and discussing statutory rule-making and where funds have to go will only get very brief mention.

This is the 5th permit to carry curriculum we have developed.

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#77 ragsbo

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 06:28 PM

Since the instructors will have to wait till January to file for their concealed permits like everyone else; will they also be required to attend 8 hrs training to get the training required or will they get credit for teaching? Will they have to at least do the shooting qualifications?

#78 bobapunk

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:29 PM

We went through our two courses; NACFI's Il Carry Course and NACFI's Basic Handgun course and found that our Basic Course works very well for 1-3. It also picks up some of section 5.

Our Carry course cover much more than what is required. If it ends up being more that 8 hours, so be it. If the basic course ends up being a little short of 8 hours, so be it. I went through the NACFI courses and marked the slides where the material desired is covered. We can defend our curriculum as discussing every item on the list. We will discuss the items the way we believe they need to be presented. We will synthesize some into principles that will be easy for students to remember.

We will focus on what the student needs to know and do to stay 10% within the law. Listing and discussing statutory rule-making and where funds have to go will only get very brief mention.

This is the 5th permit to carry curriculum we have developed.


What about the other 90% of the time?

Since the instructors will have to wait till January to file for their concealed permits like everyone else; will they also be required to attend 8 hrs training to get the training required or will they get credit for teaching? Will they have to at least do the shooting qualifications?


The answers to tour questions are all in the law and have been answered on this board many times...

#79 RacerDave6

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:41 PM

Since the instructors will have to wait till January to file for their concealed permits like everyone else; will they also be required to attend 8 hrs training to get the training required or will they get credit for teaching? Will they have to at least do the shooting qualifications?

Read the bill.
Instructors are exempt from all the training requirements.
Firearms are not a talisman against evil. When used properly, they are an antidote to evil. T.Dunn

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#80 Tango7

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

Stop the administration from making up their own set of rules. We fought too hard to have the administration making up rules as they want. If it is not require by law, we are not required to teach it.


This is a bogeyman that seems inherent in every piece of legislation... the phrase "the agency shall promulgate rules..." which alleviates the legislature from having to get down to the nickel, dime and cent level for everything.

From the School Code:

The Committee will be responsible for developing policy on matters of mutual concern to elementary, secondary and higher education...


From the Environmental Protection Act:

The Agency is authorized to promulgate such regulations and enter into such contracts as it may deem necessary...



From the Wildlife Code:

The Department is authorized to make rules and regulations for carrying out, administering and enforcing the provisions of this Act...



And of course my favorite, the Police Training Act:

The Board may make, amend and rescind such rules and regulations as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act...


So basically they give a blank check (or rather rulebook) to whatever entity they saddle with administering their new law, and let them use the obscurity of JCAR to flesh out the concept that is the law.

Kind of like someone buying a piece of property and telling their crew "build me a house" (or a bank, or a grocery store) but not caring how many rooms it has, what color it is or how many stories.

They probably figure as long as the rules are vaguely connected to "carry(ing) out the provisions" of the law, it can withstand any potential challenge and thus is GTG.

Plus, their checkbook is bigger than most of the little people. They can always out-litigate any troublemakers.
You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#81 mjw45

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:35 PM

Stop the administration from making up their own set of rules. We fought too hard to have the administration making up rules as they want. If it is not require by law, we are not required to teach it.


This is a bogeyman that seems inherent in every piece of legislation... the phrase "the agency shall promulgate rules..." which alleviates the legislature from having to get down to the nickel, dime and cent level for everything.


I agree, but where in the FCCA does it say anything like that?

I just scanned it a bit, mostly beginning and end and still didn't see it. Wouldn't be surprised that it was in their, but don't see it.

Matt
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#82 Tango7

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:08 PM

I agree, but where in the FCCA does it say anything like that?

I just scanned it a bit, mostly beginning and end and still didn't see it. Wouldn't be surprised that it was in their, but don't see it.

Matt


Section 95. Procurement; rulemaking.

The Department shall adopt rules to implement the
provisions of this Act. The Department may adopt rules
necessary to implement the provisions of this Act through the
use of emergency rulemaking in accordance with Section 5-45 of
the Illinois Administrative Procedure Act for a period not to
exceed 180 days after the effective date of this Act.
You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#83 mjw45

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:14 PM

Thanks Tango.

I still think/hope that we should have enough power left to fight this one.

The law clearly states what needs to be taught.

Drawing from holsters is no where in the 5 requirements.

Matt
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#84 Mr. Fife

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:27 PM

Geez, so they've got 6 months to come up with more emergencies?

Move over Todd...

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#85 ragsbo

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:29 AM

Since the instructors will have to wait till January to file for their concealed permits like everyone else; will they also be required to attend 8 hrs training to get the training required or will they get credit for teaching? Will they have to at least do the shooting qualifications?

Read the bill.
Instructors are exempt from all the training requirements.


I have read the bill but since they are making stuff up as they go, I see this being a problem too.

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:18 AM

The ISP released outlines for 16 hours and 8 hours... If they allow Utah for 4 hours there will be a giant cluster... Specific 12 hour class only for people who already have Utah permits?

They should just allow 8 And make it simpler, not more complicated.


Yeah I agree. If the UT course is 4 hours, then the instructors would have to start creating a 4, 8 and 16 hour class. With all those combinations there is a great potential to miss something. There is no harm in sitting through an extra 4 hours of safety training boring and unpalatable as it may seem.

I am planning on splitting the two days teaching the NRA Basic Pistol on Day 1 and IL CCW Specific stuff on day 2.

Even if ISP dos not accept the NRA BP (why they would not makes NO sense) it covers everything that the ISP website says.

Thank you

 

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#87 aka

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:25 AM

Question for the ISP:

What provision, if any, is being made for out of state permit applicants to get their prints done? Will out of state applicants, without a trip to IL and a Live Scan vendor, be required to wait the additional 30 days for approval using paper prints or will paper prints, perhaps done by a law enforcement agency located near to the applicants home, be adequate to prevent undue delay?


I think that part may become clear once ISP releases the forms and process for applicants in January 2014. Also take a look at out of state instructor requirements. I think the process for fingerprints will be the same.

My understanding based on a quick Google search is that Live Scan is available nationwide.

Edited by aka, 06 September 2013 - 06:26 AM.

Thank you

 

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:28 AM

I think you guys are worried about Utah course. I am not going to accept it. If it is not 8 hours then I won't accept it


You don't accept anything. You teach your course, period. The student submits all their certificates equaling 16 hours of approved courses to the ISP.

If you have a prerequisite course the students must have before they take your course, that's up to you.


Exactly. You do not want to be the person deciding if a class taken by the student is valid or not. It is for ISP to decide and the student to figure out.

Thank you

 

Arvind Aggarwal

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#89 mjw45

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:32 AM

Question for the ISP:

What provision, if any, is being made for out of state permit applicants to get their prints done? Will out of state applicants, without a trip to IL and a Live Scan vendor, be required to wait the additional 30 days for approval using paper prints or will paper prints, perhaps done by a law enforcement agency located near to the applicants home, be adequate to prevent undue delay?


I think that part may become clear once ISP releases the forms and process for applicants in January 2014. Also take a look at out of state instructor requirements. I think the process for fingerprints will be the same.

My understanding based on a quick Google search is that Live Scan is available nationwide.


As far as I know right now there is no provision for out of state residents to get Live Scan printing done for IL CCW.
The Issue isn't live scan vendors, it's live scan vendors who are connected to the ISP. Remember even police departments with Live Scan are not able to do civilian CCW printing without jumping through a lot of hoops. So just having the equipment does not mean that a vendor can do IL CCW printing.

The vendor has to IL certified, have IL certified technicians, pay a bond/start an account with IL.

As far as how it will work our for students, it's still a mess for instructors right now in so many ways, we will just have to wait and work on getting things straightened out.
Matt Wehland
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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:33 AM

Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8.

The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it.

My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one?


If your team is teaching the same curriculum then I would think one. ISP is certifying the curriculum and the instructor separately. That means (at least to me) a certified instructor can teach the certified curriculum. :-)

LOL I hope that is true.

Thank you

 

Arvind Aggarwal

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IL CCW License Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
NRA Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA Member
Glock Armorer