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#31 STR8*SHOT

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 04:08 PM

I would like to see, at this moment in time, in black and white on the ISP website that Basic Pistol and other proposed courses will count for the first eight hours. Folks in our area are scared to do anything until they know to sure. People want to be pro-active at this time but are standing fast!

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#32 RacerDave6

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:02 PM

When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor?
Firearms are not a talisman against evil. When used properly, they are an antidote to evil. T.Dunn

"Shoot the bad guy and keep shooting him until he stops doing whatever it
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#33 sirflyguy

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:07 PM

When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor?

This is an EXCELLENT question.

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#34 ming

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:15 PM

When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor?


Why would it if you can bank 8 hours of NRA Basic Pistol. Any NRA pistol instructor should be fine for the first 8 hours then.

Edited by ming, 01 September 2013 - 07:18 PM.

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#35 RacerDave6

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:21 PM

When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor?


Why would it if you can bank 8 hours of NRA Basic Pistol. Any NRA pistol instructor should be fine for the first 8 hours then.

I would agree, but this is Illannoy and we have Incompetent Stupid People making the rules
Firearms are not a talisman against evil. When used properly, they are an antidote to evil. T.Dunn

"Shoot the bad guy and keep shooting him until he stops doing whatever it
was that got him shot in the first place."


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#36 sirflyguy

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:26 PM

When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor?


Why would it if you can bank 8 hours of NRA Basic Pistol. Any NRA pistol instructor should be fine for the first 8 hours then.

The logical side of me agrees with you. The side that trusts nothing this state government does is skeptical that the state government will be logical. :)

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#37 sirflyguy

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:27 PM

When instructors and curriculum are approved and we begin teaching, will NRA basic pistol taught as the first 8 hours have to be taught by a certified IL ccw instructor?


Why would it if you can bank 8 hours of NRA Basic Pistol. Any NRA pistol instructor should be fine for the first 8 hours then.

I would agree, but this is Illannoy and we have Incompetent Stupid People making the rules

Regarding your answer: great minds think alike...

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#38 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:06 PM

Ok taking a closer look, how do we merge the ISP requirements 1-3 with NRA Basic Pistol?

NRA Basic Pistol-
Lesson I (2hr) Pistol Knowledge and Safe Gun Handling
Lesson II (2hr) Ammunition and Fundamental of Pistol shooting
Lesson III (2hr) Firing the First Shots
Lesson IV (1hr) Scoring Targets and Selecting and maintaining a Pistol
Lesson V (1hr) Continued Opportuniites for Skill Development

ISP-
1. Firearm safety; Minimum 2 hours Classroom
______ a. 4 basic fi rearm handling safety rules
______ b. Home storage
______ c. Vehicle storage
______ d. Public Storage
2. Basic principles of marksmanship; Minimum 3 hours Classroom/Range
______ a. Stance
______ b. Grip
______ c. Sight Alignment
______ d. Sight Picture
______ e. Trigger Control
3. Care, cleaning, loading, and unloading of a concealable fi
rearm; Minimum 3 hours Classroom
______ a. Gun identifi cation: revolver, semi-automatic, misc.
______ b. Ammunition identifi cation and selection
______ c. Safety and cleaning protocols
______ d. Cleaning equipment
______ e. Loading and unloading


I can't see a way to make NRA basic pistol compatible with the ISP time requirements and stay true to the actual NRA curriculum without making the class 10 hours long.

Where in the ISP program can I give the exam, talk about pistol selection, scoring targets etc. and stay true to the NRA class outline unless I add more time?

What about basics of the class, like intro and facilities policies, where in the ISP time limit/section do I put these?

I really don't like the idea of signing a document under the penalty of perjury with questions like these hanging over me.

I'm starting to think I will get my instructor fingerprint/submission done next week and hang back a little on curriculum.

Matt


You guys are looking at this all too closely...

If you teach Basic Pistol, the ISP says the student has satisfied #1 - #3 on their training outline, period.

There is no reason to try to force the 2 classes to match. If you teach BP, the student has satisfied #1 - #3. If you choose to make your own curriculum for the first 8 hrs, the ISP has provided you a class outline.

There is absolutely NO need to try to smash the 2 different options together into one.

It seems like the blinders are on and some are thinking that NRA Basic Pistol is the only way to cover the first 8 hrs when that is simply not the case.

Either teach Basic Pistol and allow your students to then "grandfather" in with 8 prior hrs, or use the ISP's outline to make your own class. Two distinct separate options for you to chose.


Where exactly has the ISP said that NRA Basic Pistol satisfies 1-3 on the 16 hour training requirements? I have not seen it in writing anywhere, except tossed about on this forum to and fro. While I do respect Todd's insider knowledge, the only thing we have in writing (SO FAR) is that the NRA Basic Pistol course does NOT exactly match what the ISP is asking for.
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#39 wtr100

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:18 PM

While NRA BP isn't listed yet now that I see NRA Basic Pistol Instructor listed ok for instructor I'd be very surprised to NOT see NRA Basic as accepted for the first 8 hours

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#40 bobapunk

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:43 PM

Ok taking a closer look, how do we merge the ISP requirements 1-3 with NRA Basic Pistol?

NRA Basic Pistol-
Lesson I (2hr) Pistol Knowledge and Safe Gun Handling
Lesson II (2hr) Ammunition and Fundamental of Pistol shooting
Lesson III (2hr) Firing the First Shots
Lesson IV (1hr) Scoring Targets and Selecting and maintaining a Pistol
Lesson V (1hr) Continued Opportuniites for Skill Development

ISP-
1. Firearm safety; Minimum 2 hours Classroom
______ a. 4 basic fi rearm handling safety rules
______ b. Home storage
______ c. Vehicle storage
______ d. Public Storage
2. Basic principles of marksmanship; Minimum 3 hours Classroom/Range
______ a. Stance
______ b. Grip
______ c. Sight Alignment
______ d. Sight Picture
______ e. Trigger Control
3. Care, cleaning, loading, and unloading of a concealable fi
rearm; Minimum 3 hours Classroom
______ a. Gun identifi cation: revolver, semi-automatic, misc.
______ b. Ammunition identifi cation and selection
______ c. Safety and cleaning protocols
______ d. Cleaning equipment
______ e. Loading and unloading


I can't see a way to make NRA basic pistol compatible with the ISP time requirements and stay true to the actual NRA curriculum without making the class 10 hours long.

Where in the ISP program can I give the exam, talk about pistol selection, scoring targets etc. and stay true to the NRA class outline unless I add more time?

What about basics of the class, like intro and facilities policies, where in the ISP time limit/section do I put these?

I really don't like the idea of signing a document under the penalty of perjury with questions like these hanging over me.

I'm starting to think I will get my instructor fingerprint/submission done next week and hang back a little on curriculum.

Matt


You guys are looking at this all too closely...

If you teach Basic Pistol, the ISP says the student has satisfied #1 - #3 on their training outline, period.

There is no reason to try to force the 2 classes to match. If you teach BP, the student has satisfied #1 - #3. If you choose to make your own curriculum for the first 8 hrs, the ISP has provided you a class outline.

There is absolutely NO need to try to smash the 2 different options together into one.

It seems like the blinders are on and some are thinking that NRA Basic Pistol is the only way to cover the first 8 hrs when that is simply not the case.

Either teach Basic Pistol and allow your students to then "grandfather" in with 8 prior hrs, or use the ISP's outline to make your own class. Two distinct separate options for you to chose.


Where exactly has the ISP said that NRA Basic Pistol satisfies 1-3 on the 16 hour training requirements? I have not seen it in writing anywhere, except tossed about on this forum to and fro. While I do respect Todd's insider knowledge, the only thing we have in writing (SO FAR) is that the NRA Basic Pistol course does NOT exactly match what the ISP is asking for.


Good point. My post was mis worded. I tend to do that when replying from my phone. I should have said "if the ISP approves Basic Pistol". I type on my phone much skier than I think sometimes...

Anyway, I still think the point I was making is valid. If the ISP/FCCA allows grandfathering, it is not up to the instructors to second guess..

#41 maxcapp

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:49 PM

Terry as soon as you are on this list on ISP. I would start teaching. Also you just make up your own certificates.
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#42 Craigcelia

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 02:22 PM

Also besides BP, does the 4 hours of Utah count. I thought it was mentioned at the Town Hall last week in Elmhurst it would count for 4 hours. We should give those who have it, credit for 4 hours and teaching 12 if instructors so choose.

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#43 RacerDave6

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 02:42 PM

Also besides BP, does the 4 hours of Utah count. I thought it was mentioned at the Town Hall last week in Elmhurst it would count for 4 hours. We should give those who have it, credit for 4 hours and teaching 12 if instructors so choose.

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Sure, but for which 4 hrs?
What is covered in the Utah class that is listed on the curriculum affidavit?
(I do not have a Utah permit, so I don't know what was covered in that class)
Firearms are not a talisman against evil. When used properly, they are an antidote to evil. T.Dunn

"Shoot the bad guy and keep shooting him until he stops doing whatever it
was that got him shot in the first place."


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#44 Craigcelia

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 03:14 PM

Also besides BP, does the 4 hours of Utah count. I thought it was mentioned at the Town Hall last week in Elmhurst it would count for 4 hours. We should give those who have it, credit for 4 hours and teaching 12 if instructors so choose.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Sure, but for which 4 hrs?
What is covered in the Utah class that is listed on the curriculum affidavit?
(I do not have a Utah permit, so I don't know what was covered in that class)


The first part of Utah is safety, fundamentals, parts and operation, single vs. double action, etc. Much of sections 1 to 3 really.

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#45 RacerDave6

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 03:53 PM

Also besides BP, does the 4 hours of Utah count. I thought it was mentioned at the Town Hall last week in Elmhurst it would count for 4 hours. We should give those who have it, credit for 4 hours and teaching 12 if instructors so choose.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Sure, but for which 4 hrs?
What is covered in the Utah class that is listed on the curriculum affidavit?
(I do not have a Utah permit, so I don't know what was covered in that class)


The first part of Utah is safety, fundamentals, parts and operation, single vs. double action, etc. Much of sections 1 to 3 really.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Ok, however the curriculum affidavit you are certifying 8/16 hr or 3 hr refresher. There is no 12 hr course.
The more we look the harder they made it for us.
Firearms are not a talisman against evil. When used properly, they are an antidote to evil. T.Dunn

"Shoot the bad guy and keep shooting him until he stops doing whatever it
was that got him shot in the first place."


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#46 Craigcelia

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:20 PM


Ok, however the curriculum affidavit you are certifying 8/16 hr or 3 hr refresher. There is no 12 hr course.
The more we look the harder they made it for us.


I know..that's why I was surprised when I had seen they specifically list the "8/16" listed on the ISP website. I guess we'll see.

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#47 wtr100

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:26 PM

Ok, however the curriculum affidavit you are certifying 8/16 hr or 3 hr refresher. There is no 12 hr course.
The more we look the harder they made it for us.


I know..that's why I was surprised when I had seen they specifically list the "8/16" listed on the ISP website. I guess we'll see.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


is it just me or did the ISP forget to 'proof read' the stuff

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#48 maxcapp

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:28 PM

I think you guys are worried about Utah course. I am not going to accept it. If it is not 8 hours then I won't accept it
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#49 sirflyguy

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:32 PM

Ok, however the curriculum affidavit you are certifying 8/16 hr or 3 hr refresher. There is no 12 hr course.
The more we look the harder they made it for us.


I know..that's why I was surprised when I had seen they specifically list the "8/16" listed on the ISP website. I guess we'll see.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


is it just me or did the ISP forget to 'proof read' the stuff

It isn't just you.

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#50 RacerDave6

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:40 PM

I think you guys are worried about Utah course. I am not going to accept it. If it is not 8 hours then I won't accept it

You may not have a choice.
If ISP says it's good for X number of hours of previous training, it has to be good.
You won't have to accept those people as students, but there are a lot of people in IL with Utah permits.
Firearms are not a talisman against evil. When used properly, they are an antidote to evil. T.Dunn

"Shoot the bad guy and keep shooting him until he stops doing whatever it
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#51 bobapunk

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 06:22 PM

The ISP released outlines for 16 hours and 8 hours... If they allow Utah for 4 hours there will be a giant cluster... Specific 12 hour class only for people who already have Utah permits?

They should just allow 8 And make it simpler, not more complicated.

Edited by bobapunk, 02 September 2013 - 06:23 PM.


#52 maxcapp

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:09 PM

Why should Il care about Utah. No one made people take the course. I do not think Il should do anything. They should just leave it alone.
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#53 F12Mahon

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:21 PM

If they allow 4 hours for Utah, and 4 hours for Florida, wouldn't that be the 8 hours banked? Or am I misunderstanding something?

I've got my DD214 so I'm not worried about other training being banked.

Eugene

#54 RacerDave6

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:23 PM

If they allow 4 hours for Utah, and 4 hours for Florida, wouldn't that be the 8 hours banked? Or am I misunderstanding something?

I've got my DD214 so I'm not worried about other training being banked.

Eugene

Yes, it would be allowed.
You would probably need paperwork from those instructors/classes certifying as to the length of them.
Firearms are not a talisman against evil. When used properly, they are an antidote to evil. T.Dunn

"Shoot the bad guy and keep shooting him until he stops doing whatever it
was that got him shot in the first place."


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#55 mjw45

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:18 PM

All the questions from this thread have been added to the list of questions for Todd
Concealed Carry Instructor questions for Todd.

If there are any more questions please get them posted as soon as possible, Todd has said the will start working on them Tuesday.

Thanks,

Matt
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#56 sirflyguy

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:19 AM

Since I was fingerprinted before the ISP posted the form, I am guessing I need to have a copy of my handwritten receipt (has TCN on it) photocopied and stapled to the ISP form. Thoughts?

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#57 Onytay

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:20 AM

Since I was fingerprinted before the ISP posted the form, I am guessing I need to have a copy of my handwritten receipt (has TCN on it) photocopied and stapled to the ISP form. Thoughts?


I just pulled the info off the receipt and filled in the form.

#58 bigdudez25

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:09 AM

My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable?

#59 2atrainers

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:24 AM

Question for the ISP:

What provision, if any, is being made for out of state permit applicants to get their prints done? Will out of state applicants, without a trip to IL and a Live Scan vendor, be required to wait the additional 30 days for approval using paper prints or will paper prints, perhaps done by a law enforcement agency located near to the applicants home, be adequate to prevent undue delay?
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#60 mjw45

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:31 AM

My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable?


Not as it stands right now.

Have you looked at the Concealed Carry License Curriculum Approval Form?


The second 8 hours is completely IL specific with time restrictions, no relation to any other currently available class.

Todd will have more info for us in the future.

Matt
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