Legal age to purchase AR lower ?

[FF17]

Trying to help a 19 year old, with a vali FOID, build an AR, my FFL is saying he can't purchase the lower himself, he's not sure why.

Looking for input , with reference to statues on this topic.

As usual, all help is apreciated.

[ScottFM]

Title 1 Firearm, meaning you must be 21 years old to buy it from a dealer. Have him buy a completed AR which he only needs to be 18 to buy. At least this is what I have been told.

 

Although is the stock is attached to the lower it may be then a rifle and he could buy it.

[mic6010]

A complete lower with a buffer tube and stock is a rifle so 18. A stripped lower can be a rifle or a pistol so 21.

 

 

However I think FFLs just consider them all over 21 purchases regardless. Even though that's not really what the law says, its how the ATF deems it to be so thus they enforce it.

You can always private sale a rifle lower though.

[FF17]

It is a completed lower, completed upper, bcg and ch already in hand.

[mikeyk101]

Just because it is a completed lower even with a stock attached, it is not considered a rifle and can be made into an AR15 pistol. It would only be considered a rifle that an 18 year old can legally purchase once a rifle upper is installed. Because of this, you have to be 21 to purchase a lower, stripped or completed

Http://www.typicalshooter.com/atf-putting-a-stock-on-an-ar-15-lower-does-not-make-it-a-rifle/

[splash]

If it started it's life a rifle, it is always a rifle. But if it started as a pistol, you can configure it into a rifle and back to a pistol with no problem.

[chislinger]

If it started it's life a rifle, it is always a rifle. But if it started as a pistol, you can configure it into a rifle and back to a pistol with no problem.

The idiocy of our gun laws!

 

Build an AR rifle. Build some more in the ensuing years. Get tired of the first one and start cannibalizing it for parts for new builds. Eventually end up with just the stripped lower, toss it in a drawer for 10 years. Then you get the urge to build an AR pistol so you make one out of the lower that's been sitting in a drawer for 10 years, instant felony!

 

Sheer stupidity.

[Hazborgufen]

The simple solution for any AR you build yourself is to always start as a pistol. It gives you the most flexibility, even if you ultimately SBR it since you can go back and forth from SBR to pistol to rifle and back to SBR at will. That makes it easier to cross state lines if you don't have a Form 20 for your SBR, just take the stock and vertical foregrip (if you have one) off and you're back to being a pistol, or put a 16" upper on it and you're a rifle.

 

If you're under 21 you can't do this though since you would need to buy a complete rifle to begin with and thus can't go down to being a pistol.

[mikeyk101]

If it started it's life a rifle, it is always a rifle. But if it started as a pistol, you can configure it into a rifle and back to a pistol with no problem.

It only becomes a rifle once a rifle upper is affixed. Until that happens, it can be built into a pistol first, then a rifle, and back to a pistol.

[chislinger]

 

If it started it's life a rifle, it is always a rifle. But if it started as a pistol, you can configure it into a rifle and back to a pistol with no problem.

It only becomes a rifle once a rifle upper is affixed. Until that happens, it can be built into a pistol first, then a rifle, and back to a pistol.

 

Wow, that's a whole 'nother layer of stupid!

 

Only government could devise such a rule!

[bw200]

Agree 21 ,

[Tango7]

Age Restriction & Interstate Transfer Reminders

Licensees are reminded that firearm frames, receivers, and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns

(rifles or shotguns) are considered “Other Firearms.” They cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person under

21 years of age. Additionally, 18 U.S.C. 922( B ) 3) <cursed smileys> states that a licensee shall not sell or deliver any firearm other than a

shotgun or rifle to any person who does not reside in the State in which the licensee’s place of business or activity is located;

this restriction includes handguns, pistol grip firearms utilizing shotgun ammunition, and frames and receivers.

ATF November 2009 FFL Newsletter (PDF) also addressed shotguns sold with pistol grips. If the firearm comes with the butt stock mounted and the PG in a bag, a citizen who can be drafted, sign contracts and get married can buy it. But if it arrives with the PG mounted instead of the stock, then the same citizen has to wait until the same age he can buy a pistol, drink and vote*.

 

 

*Ooops - guess the Dims must have "forgot" to change that one when pushed the 26th Amendment, huh?

[skinnyb82]

It cannot be converted back to a pistol if the barrel is less than 16". It would be converting an AR pistol to an SBR, which obviously requires a stamp, and once the SBR upper is fitted onto the lower, it cannot be converted back to a pistol.

 

Which is why I'm building an AR pistol that I plan on converting to an SBR. Having the lower marked as a pistol lower in my FFL's bound book helps fight any constructive possession garbage they could try throwing at me for having a sub-16" barrel and all of the other parts for an SBR. Might buy a pistol buffer and tube just as insurance.

 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

[Hazborgufen]

It cannot be converted back to a pistol if the barrel is less than 16". It would be converting an AR pistol to an SBR, which obviously requires a stamp, and once the SBR upper is fitted onto the lower, it cannot be converted back to a pistol. Which is why I'm building an AR pistol that I plan on converting to an SBR. Having the lower marked as a pistol lower in my FFL's bound book helps fight any constructive possession garbage they could try throwing at me for having a sub-16" barrel and all of the other parts for an SBR. Might buy a pistol buffer and tube just as insurance. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

Are you saying that going from pistol to SBR back to pistol is illegal? If so, can you forward the ruling you are basing that on? The general consensus is that if a lower starts as a pistol, you can always return it to a pistol configuration regardless of if it becomes an SBR or a rifle.

 

Basically, the ATF has posted a letter that if a lower is registered as an SBR but is no longer in an SBR configuration, it is no longer under the purview of the NFA. You can go back and forth between Title 2 (NFA) and Title 1 (standard firearm) configuration at will. Once it's back to Title 1 configuration you can treat it as any other Title 1 firearm under the law. Registering a pistol as an SBR doesn't change the fact that it started life as a pistol. Thus if you return to a Title 1 configuration, you can do whatever you want with the lower including returning it to a pistol configuration. This all assumes you built a pistol then sent the ATF a Form 1 to build an SBR.

 

Now, if you transfer an SBR on a Form 4, meaning you bought the SBR from a dealer in that configuration, I assume that the "started life as a rifle" rule applies and you can't make it a pistol (though a 16" rifle would be fine). Honestly though, I have not done any research into that fact though since it doesn't apply to any of my guns.

 

Basically, the best bet is to always build every AR, even one you plan to only keep as a 16" rifle, as a pistol first since it grants the most flexibility. You never know what you'll want to do years from now and starting as a rifle limits your options.

 

And, in case anyone was wondering, you don't need a special buffer tube to build a pistol. A regular carbine tube is fine so long as you don't have a stock in your possession that could go on it. If you already have a stock, keep it at a different location, like a friend's house, so that you aren't in constructive possession. The easiest way is to just order the stock last after you've already built the pistol.

[skinnyb82]

Yes, that is precisely what I am saying because, after you convert it to an SBR, you cannot convert a Title I item to a Title II (Class III) item, back to Title I. It's registered as an NFA item, but the second you modify it to not fall under Title II, well, it becomes Title I again. If that were legal, logically speaking I could just throw an SBR upper on any lower, go to the range, have some fun, and then swap out the upper either at the range or at home. You file the Form 1 stating you are building a rifle, here's the serial, etc. You are then committed to building a rifle. It is no longer a pistol.

 

"Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:

 

(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or

( Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including -

(1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and

 

(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.

 

Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA."

 

"Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA."

 

My interpretation of that pathetic clarification is that once the lower is registered as a rifle via Form 1, it's always a rifle. It cannot be both and it is illegal to convert an NFA item once it's registered. You can de-register it by destroying it, surrending it, donating it to a museum, etc, but you cannot convert it.

 

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/594415887b412/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Hazborgufen]

There was a time when "once a rifle always a rifle" was the rule. Meaning you could go pistol to rifle but not back again. The ruling in US v. Thompson/Center Arms, as referenced in your attachment, changed the ATF's opinion and now you can go pistol > rifle > pistol.

 

They have also ruled that you can go Title II back to Title I as long as you don't have the Title II parts with you. So you can throw a 16" upper on your SBR, leave the 10" upper at home, and cross state lines without a Form 20.

 

My SBR was not built from a rifle, it was built from a pistol. The Form 1 allows you to have the firearm in an SBR configuration. The moment it isn't in that configuration, it is no longer under the NFA's purview. This can be temporary without having to de-register the lower so long as the parts aren't in your possession.

 

If the gun started as rifle, it can never be a pistol. My SBR started as a pistol. Thus it can go pistol > rifle > pistol just as before. It just so happens that the rifle has a short barrel, which the stamp allows.

 

In fairness, there doesn't seem to be a ruling one way or the other. But the "R" in SBR stands for rifle, and the ATF says pistol > rifle > pistol is ok along with Title II > Title is ok so logically pistol > SBR > pistol makes sense. Additionally, there has been one off guidance from ATF agents such as the one I copied below (I'm not the original poster):

 

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_51/454312_.html

 

I asked this question via "Ask the Experts" in eForms.

Question:
"I will be submitting a Form 1 for a SBR soon. I will be building it on an 80% forging that I will complete. Prior to building the firearm in the SBR configuration I will be assembling it in a pistol configuration first, and then later changing the buffer tube and adding a stock to make it a rifle after the Form 1 is approved and returned to me. My question is; since the firearm will first be a pistol and then later a rifle, is it permissible switch the configuration back and forth between configurations as desired? I believe this is true after the Thompson Center decision. My rational is that I will want to use the firearm as a pistol in states that do not allow the SBR configuration."

Answer from Gary.N.Schaible on 27 Feb, 2015:
"Yes, that is acceptable."

 

 

Edited to add:

 

While we all understand that the serialized lower is "the gun," the ATF has long held that it's the configuration that makes an SBR. Thus a receiver that is not configured as an SBR is no longer an SBR even if you have the stamp for that receiver. You aren't creating a new gun, you are changing the configuration of the current gun. So a gun starting life as a pistol isn't "born again" as a rifle when you Form 1 it into an SBR. You are instead getting authorization to have a rifle in a SBR configuration. So pistol > rifle > pistol still applies.

 

Until they make a ruling saying otherwise. And then changing their mind again, like they did with the Sig brace.

[skinnyb82]

I talk to one person, it's read one way. I read it another way. Others read it...they don't clarify much when they do "clarify." Saw some huge debates on other forums. Conclusions are yes, maybe, no. It's fun being expected to read the minds of BATFE.

 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

[Hazborgufen]

That's totally fair. My view is that the little idiosyncrasies have generally been loosening recently. Even the Sig brace issue resolved in our favor. Coupled with the logic from the Thompson decision (pistol > rifle > pistol) and the ATF's guidance that you can switch from Title II to Title I, I personally feel pistol > SBR > pistol is reasonable.

 

I suppose I could write to the ATF and get one of those infamous letters back.

[skinnyb82]

You could, but you'd probably receive some convoluted answer that doesn't answer anything at all. Only further confuses everyone. BATFE probably thinks "Oh, they're confused. Let's show them real confusion."

 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Gamma]

He can purchase a lower. An FFL is just prohibited from transferring it to him, so private purchase or receiving as a gift are the only options.

[skinnyb82]

Pretty much. That verbiage has never made a bit of sense to me. A licensed dealer cannot transfer but a private party can. So illogical it boggles the mind.

 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Gamma]

Yes, that is precisely what I am saying because, after you convert it to an SBR, you cannot convert a Title I item to a Title II (Class III) item, back to Title I. It's registered as an NFA item, but the second you modify it to not fall under Title II, well, it becomes Title I again. If that were legal, logically speaking I could just throw an SBR upper on any lower, go to the range, have some fun, and then swap out the upper either at the range or at home. You file the Form 1 stating you are building a rifle, here's the serial, etc. You are then committed to building a rifle. It is no longer a pistol.

 

"Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:

 

(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or

( Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including -

(1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and

 

(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.

 

Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA."

 

"Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA."

 

My interpretation of that pathetic clarification is that once the lower is registered as a rifle via Form 1, it's always a rifle. It cannot be both and it is illegal to convert an NFA item once it's registered. You can de-register it by destroying it, surrending it, donating it to a museum, etc, but you cannot convert it.

 

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/594415887b412/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

The above is not correct.

 

An SBR can be reverted to Title I configuration, either a handgun (if it was originally a handgun), or Title I long gun/rifle. ATF says so directly in various communications. You can temporarily change to a Title I configuration and legally transport it through a jurisdiction that does not allow SBRs for example. You can also permanently revert it to a Title I configuration and sell it. They do recommend that you notify them to remove it from the registry if you are permanently changing it back to a non-NFA configuration.

 

SBRs are a particular configuration of a firearm. It is not something magical that is imbued into the receiver. Just because you have registered an SBR and have engraved a receiver does not mean that the receiver itself is an SBR, or that any firearm assembled on the receiver is an SBR.

 

Your post also contains a common fallacy, that of confusing an SBR (short barreled rifle) with a Title I long gun - Rifle. Just because both have "rifle" in the name does not mean they are the same, or that SBRs are somehow a subset of Rifles (as far as legal classifications). The whole "once a rifle always a rifle" mantra is not correct and in any event, does not include SBR's as they are not a Title I Rifle.

 

A receiver that is originally assembled as a handgun can be assembled as a handgun, or rifle, at will. If that receiver is subsequently registered as an SBR, it can then be assembled as a handgun, rifle, or SBR at will.