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Your opinion on best (suburban) home defense weapon and ammo.


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#61 2smartby1/2

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 12:51 PM

^That was a really good point.

 

A Tavor is a bit too rich for my blood (being that I have multiple AR's already), but muzzle distance does make for an interesting discussion.  I just walked towards a wall with my 10.5" with 3" KAK can.  Muzzle vs muzzle, there isn't much of a difference between how I "train" with my Shield vs how I shoot with my AR.

 

When I practice with my pistol, I'm in a set stance....arms extended (modified Weaver).   I've never really practiced "close quarter" shooting..(as in coming around the corner and being within bad breath distance) where the gun would be tucked in closer to my body. 

 

A Tavor with a 16" barrel is just over 26 inches....a bit more if you include the flash hider. 

What is a AR pistol with an 8.5 or 9 inch barrel from birdcage to buffer tube?  "23? 24"? 25"?  Add another inch for a LAW Tactical folding stock adapter.,..maybe a bit more depending on brace type and setting. 

 

The right 5.56 round out of a 16" barrel will be fragment the best...so that is a plus for the Tavor. 

 

I still need to find the right bullet (the Lehigh 194gr Max Expansion seems to be the least likely .300 round to over-penetrate....assuming you don't miss), but I'm kinda smitten with the thought of being able to fold up the .300 AR pistol and being able to toss it in a back-pack as a PDW when not being used for HD. 



#62 Lou

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 12:56 PM

^That was a really good point.
 
A Tavor is a bit too rich for my blood (being that I have multiple AR's already), but muzzle distance does make for an interesting discussion.  I just walked towards a wall with my 10.5" with 3" KAK can.  Muzzle vs muzzle, there isn't much of a difference between how I "train" with my Shield vs how I shoot with my AR.
 
When I practice with my pistol, I'm in a set stance....arms extended (modified Weaver).   I've never really practiced "close quarter" shooting..(as in coming around the corner and being within bad breath distance) where the gun would be tucked in closer to my body. 
 
A Tavor with a 16" barrel is just over 26 inches....a bit more if you include the flash hider. 
What is a AR pistol with an 8.5 or 9 inch barrel from birdcage to buffer tube?  "23? 24"? 25"?  Add another inch for a LAW Tactical folding stock adapter.,..maybe a bit more depending on brace type and setting. 
 
The right 5.56 round out of a 16" barrel will be fragment the best...so that is a plus for the Tavor. 
 
I still need to find the right bullet (the Lehigh 194gr Max Expansion seems to be the least likely .300 round to over-penetrate....assuming you don't miss), but I'm kinda smitten with the thought of being able to fold up the .300 AR pistol and being able to toss it in a back-pack as a PDW when not being used for HD.



Interesting.

You started this thread by asking for people’s opinions. I guess you found out that everyone has one.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -  George Orwell

A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again. 


#63 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 11:48 AM

I’ve got a Mossberg 12 GA pump loaded with reduced recoil 00 Buck.

 

Exactly what I have, pistol grip loaded with "law enforcement" reduced round 00 buckshot.  

I've tested penetration it's much better (safer) then a 9 and I can clear a texas star in 5 shots every time as fast as I can pump. 


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#64 chicagoresident

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 01:19 PM

 

But the tests I've seen of #4 Buck through 4 layers of denim has me convinced that #4 Buck is effective.
 
In the IWBA denim protocol, The majority of the #4 Buckshot pellets seem to penetrate 13" to 14" with some of the pellets traveling as far as 15" a few stopping at 11"

I've heard #4 buck is what most swat departments use. Personally I'd love a Benelli M4 just to have. I don't know if I'd use it for home defense as I'm not in the camp of long guns for urban home defense but it would be a competent option. Obviously cost is a major issue, but it's as reliable as a pump with almost any shotgun round.

^^^Tavors function pretty well, but are very expensive. For a simple test of compactness, stand a few feet from a wall (in a safe direction), shoulder a pinned 14.5" or 16" barreled AR, and move forward until the muzzle contacts the wall while in a shooting stance. Now, set aside the AR, draw your pistol, and repeat the exercise.
The result: SAME distance to the muzzle. ;)

The new school of thought that's beginning to catch on is shooting by muscle memory (used interchangeably with point shooting). The benefit is it doesn't require shooting from a full extended arms position.

Probably the best demonstration of this:
https://youtu.be/NNFlAzVhSVw

Seacamp pistols actually forgoes sights for this exact reason.
http://seecamp.com/faq.htm

An exhaustive NYPD report (NYPD SOP 9) revealed that in 70% of recorded police shootings (the majority under poor lighting conditions) officers did not use sights

I play paintball when I can and snap shooting is a skill that I think translates better to home self defense then target shooting at a gun range (quickly maneuvering from cover to shoot via muscle memory).

Even if most of us don't have the time to fully build muscle memory a red dot/holo sight or laser can help line up a shot from multiple stances/positions.

Again, the same benefit is you're not relying on your muscle memory from shooting from one single position like weaver or isosolice. I'd caution the use of laser and lean more towards a red dot/holo if you have no experience shooting from muscle memory (admittedly I'm not that good and find lasers difficult myself). If you can't paint a moving target naturally from a draw a laser is going to be a huge hindrance. But with practice it can be beneficial.

Edited by chicagoresident, 16 September 2018 - 02:17 PM.


#65 BigBL87

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 08:29 PM

For me, it depends on the layout of the house and the makeup of your family.

Me personally, I have a CZ P-07 with a Streamlight TLR1 HL that I will have if I need to leave the bedroom. Main reason for that would be to retrieve my 1 year old son from the room down the hallway, and to have something as I make my way from bedside to the safe across the room. As long as my wife and son are safe with me, at that point we're hunkering down in the bedroom with my Mossberg 500 loaded with 00 buck til the police arrive. I'm not going to be sweeping the house or going uber tactical, once everyone is safe there's no reason to risk seeking out an intruder.

If I were to go with anything different, I might consider switching the Mossberg out for an AR pistol with a brace and a red dot. If I'm going with something larger than a handgun, it's going to be in a rifle caliber. Pistol caliber carbines are fine, I just don't see the point of using a 9mm in the platform when I could just as easily go with 223 which is both powerful and penetrates less through walls.

#66 speedbump

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 09:49 PM

Chicagoresident,

"An exhaustive NYPD report (NYPD SOP 9) revealed that in 70% of recorded police shootings (the majority under poor lighting conditions) officers did not use sights"

That's one reason why NYPD officers MISS nearly 90% of their shots taken. Remember the hitman engaged by NYPD near the Empire State Building a few years ago? Seven bystanders hit...ALL by police gunfire. Dismal, plus 12 pound triggers on their Glocks, and pitiful range training. I have two buddies on NYPD, they seek outside training whenever possible.
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#67 Jeffrey

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 01:15 PM

Earlier in the thread many people brought up hearing protection being kept next to the gun.  In a break-in situation who is really going to grab earplugs?  Training with them is obvious but in a seconds count scenario?  The gun is all i'm grabbing.  God forbid a shot needs to be made.  With the adrenaline dump, I don't think hearing after the shot is effected much.  No experience in that situation I must admit.  I get the adrenaline dump hunting without any hearing protection.  I'd imagine even more dump in a self defense setting.


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#68 TRJ

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 01:26 PM

Earlier in the thread many people brought up hearing protection being kept next to the gun.  In a break-in situation who is really going to grab earplugs?  Training with them is obvious but in a seconds count scenario?  The gun is all i'm grabbing.  God forbid a shot needs to be made.  With the adrenaline dump, I don't think hearing after the shot is effected much.  No experience in that situation I must admit.  I get the adrenaline dump hunting without any hearing protection.  I'd imagine even more dump in a self defense setting.


How long will it take to put on a set of muffs? I keep a pistol on the nightstand. My preferred gun is in a quick access safe with the muffs close by. Bad guy in my second floor bedroom without first waking the dog so I can actually have time to react? If that happened then the gun is there to use, but he's probably the one using it on me then. I assume that the dog will bark up a storm once the bad guy rattles the door or breaks a window. If that doesn't happen I guess it's time to visit purgatory and await sorting.

#69 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 01:34 PM

Earlier in the thread many people brought up hearing protection being kept next to the gun.  In a break-in situation who is really going to grab earplugs?  Training with them is obvious but in a seconds count scenario?  The gun is all i'm grabbing.  God forbid a shot needs to be made.  With the adrenaline dump, I don't think hearing after the shot is effected much.  No experience in that situation I must admit.  I get the adrenaline dump hunting without any hearing protection.  I'd imagine even more dump in a self defense setting.

 

Given the opportunity, being in a house shooting one hand shouldn't be a issue, I would cross plug my ear with a finger.   (practice)

If you have never shot a firearm in a house or god forbid in a car (worse then a basement), you really want to keep it that way. 

You won't have to worry about answering questions from the police when they come you won't hear the questions. 


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#70 cybermgk

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 01:46 PM

Earlier in the thread many people brought up hearing protection being kept next to the gun.  In a break-in situation who is really going to grab earplugs?  Training with them is obvious but in a seconds count scenario?  The gun is all i'm grabbing.  God forbid a shot needs to be made.  With the adrenaline dump, I don't think hearing after the shot is effected much.  No experience in that situation I must admit.  I get the adrenaline dump hunting without any hearing protection.  I'd imagine even more dump in a self defense setting.

I have electronic ears right there.  It takes nothing to arm myself, and as I move to a defensive spot, put them on and turn them on .  Negligible.  Then my hearing is both enhanced and protected.


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#71 skrapyard

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 01:54 PM

I have electronic ears right there.  It takes nothing to arm myself, and as I move to a defensive spot, put them on and turn them on .  Negligible.  Then my hearing is both enhanced and protected.

 

 

 

 

 This thread and this reason is exactly why I will now be keeping my electronic ears by my bedside pistol. The hearing protection is great to have, but the ability to turn up the volume and hear things better than usual is the main advantage IMO.


When you're betting for stones in an archery contest, you shoot with skill.
When you're betting for fancy belt buckles, you worry about your aim. And when you're betting for real gold, you're a nervous wreck. Your skill is the same in all three cases - but because one prize means more to you than another, you let outside concerns weigh on your mind. He who looks too hard at the outside gets clumsy on the inside. -Chuang Tzu

#72 2smartby1/2

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 03:00 PM

A lot of interesting comments.   I'm taking bits and pieces of everything to help reevaluate what I'm looking.  

 

For instance, I never even considered a Tavor prior to this tread.  At $1750 from Bud's I will not be getting one, but it has made me consider a bullpup design or HD.

 

Everything I thought about shotguns has been confirmed.  Outside of the pump vs semi argument (since I'm not dropping $$ on semi-auto Benelli, it would be a pump), buck shot makes great HD ammo.  A Mossy 500 is still on my list....in the future.....

 

What is interesting is trying to match the best HD ammo with the best HD platform.  

I'm sold on buckshot as an HD ammo....but a shotgun platform isn't for me at moment. 

I'm sold on the SBR/AR-pistol platform, but I'm not sold on .300BLK ammo for HD.   There is awesome HD 5.56 ammo, but I don't want to lug around a 16" AR, nor fire a 10.5" AR indoors (Tavor = $$)

There is a lot of great HD ammo for handguns, but I would prefer a different platform. (Something easier to quickly aim, and is more accurate. Would also prefer something with a strap).  Pistol caliber carbines?   Hi-Point?    AR in 9mm (an even shorter barrel!)?   Maybe an MP5 will fall into my lap.

 

 

Interesting point about not aiming a handgun....I wonder what the stats are for shotguns as well?  I bet fully aimed target acquisition time is slowest in a handgun.   

 

Anyone run a red dot on a handgun? 



#73 bmyers

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 03:29 PM

Are plan is the G19s with Olight PL-2 on them. Plus, we have PCCs that use Glock magazines. Everyone in our house know how to use every firearm.

 

We tried shotguns and the girls didn't like the shotguns. Kick to hard and to loud.

 

We tried AR-15 platforms, they could shot them okay, but didn't care for them.

 

We tried the PCCs and the girls loved them. So, they are willing to practice with them and become proficient. 

 

So, that is what works for us. 



#74 TRJ

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 03:54 PM

.

Edited by TRJ, 17 September 2018 - 07:22 PM.


#75 soundguy

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 06:41 PM

Interesting point about not aiming a handgun....

Anyone run a red dot on a handgun?

Ive seen and shot red dots on a handgun. Seems to work just fine, but a bit bulky. Id prefer my best pistol fitted with Crimson Trace laser grips. The laser alone may cause an intruder to flee.

And by my best handgun, I mean the one I shoot best at the range... the one I shoot best anytime anywhere. For me its an SA High Power, hammer down cocked and locked. I know it backwards and forwards.

Edited by soundguy, 17 September 2018 - 06:48 PM.

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#76 chicagoresident

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 06:57 PM

Pictures speak louder sometimes.

Nice pair, B&T has the PDW down to a science. Thinking about getting the new PDW shell they came out with for your p320?

I've looked at B&T stuff for a while, other then their pistol PDW's is their other 2 platforms based on the tech 9 and uzi platform?

Edited by chicagoresident, 17 September 2018 - 07:02 PM.


#77 TRJ

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 07:21 PM

Pictures speak louder sometimes.

Nice pair, B&T has the PDW down to a science. Thinking about getting the new PDW shell they came out with for your p320?
I've looked at B&T stuff for a while, other then their pistol PDW's is their other 2 platforms based on the tech 9 and uzi platform?
The B&T USW320 shell has a stock so it's NFA if you take it out of the bag/box and put the trigger in. A braced version would be neat to play with.
The TP9 was designed by Steyr as the TMP. The magazines interchange between the Steyr and MP9, TP9, APC9, CH9, GHM9 and the P26 they just licensed to Beretta.

Edited by TRJ, 17 September 2018 - 08:38 PM.


#78 tkroenlein

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 08:33 PM

Honestly no offense, and I really mean that, but I think it's crazy to even consider the proposition that you will use ear pro in the case of a home invader.

#79 2A4Cook

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 08:52 PM

Honestly no offense, and I really mean that, but I think it's crazy to even consider the proposition that you will use ear pro in the case of a home invader.


I keep a Howard Leight Quiet Band next to my HD pistol, thinking that it is quick to put on, but I wonder if I would ever have the presence of mind to put it on when rushing for that pistol and a spare mag.

#80 tkroenlein

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 09:01 PM

Honestly no offense, and I really mean that, but I think it's crazy to even consider the proposition that you will use ear pro in the case of a home invader.

I keep a Howard Leight Quiet Band next to my HD pistol, thinking that it is quick to put on, but I wonder if I would ever have the presence of mind to put it on when rushing for that pistol and a spare mag.


That is just exactly my thought.

Self defense is 100% reactionary. I'm not planning a single second that does not directly relate to a more quickly resolved incident.

#81 chicagoresident

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 10:25 PM

Honestly no offense, and I really mean that, but I think it's crazy to even consider the proposition that you will use ear pro in the case of a home invader.
I keep a Howard Leight Quiet Band next to my HD pistol, thinking that it is quick to put on, but I wonder if I would ever have the presence of mind to put it on when rushing for that pistol and a spare mag.

That is just exactly my thought.
Self defense is 100% reactionary. I'm not planning a single second that does not directly relate to a more quickly resolved incident.
My neighbor, scoutmaster, marine, and first shooting instructor used to say "violence happens fast".

No amount of planning can make up for pure reaction.

You can't plan where an intruder enters, how far they get before meeting you, your position, if they're armed where you would draw fire, how you're going to react, etc.

Before moving out of Chicago someone did a mag dump right behind my house. My first instinct was to check the kids before even grabbing my gun, so already I was not acting strategically if they decided to break in the kitchen window. Ear protection was not on my mind.

I can only imagine how haphazardly I'd act under stress if I heard glass break out in the suburbs.

Edited by chicagoresident, 17 September 2018 - 10:27 PM.


#82 bmyers

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 04:20 AM

“You don’t rise to the occasion. You sink to your level of training.” Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

 

However you have trained to defend your home is what you will fall back on. If you never trained, then it makes it more challenging to overcome the obstacles. 

 

The few times things have went bump in the night in our house, grabbing ear protection never crossed my mind. I grabbed the G19 and headed to the noise with the wife right behind me with her 19 breaking off to head to the daughters room. I'm sure I was quite a sight in my tighty whiteys trying to figure out what had made the noise. 

 

I would encourage you and your spouse to take training together. We have enjoyed taking training classes together, with the one we enjoyed the most (probably because it was one of our first ones) was Personal Protection in the Home. The class got us thinking about things we hadn't considered at that time. The number one priority became to protect our daughter, everything else can be replaced. 



#83 2smartby1/2

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:24 AM

Pictures speak louder sometimes. 

Very nice! (yes, I started on this post yesterday, but didn't complete it until today, so I did see the thumbnail).

When I first started looking at HD weapons, I can honestly say that I thought pistol caliber non-pistols made zero sense to me.   I used to think "all the cons of a pistol, in something as big as a small rifle"   I take all of that back....especially with laws that go with CCW's and advancements in hollow points. 



#84 Raw Power

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:35 AM

Unless you live on a big piece of property you really don't want a rifle caliber anything for defense against intruders.

I built the smallest lightest 300blk pistol with this intention and the risk of overpenetration is too much, even with expanding rounds.

Your best bet is to look at handgun caliber PDW's or just a full sized handgun with a big magazine.

If you really want to stick to the AR platform look at the 458 socom or 50 beowulf, ballistics are very similar to the s&w 460 and 500 revolver rounds. But you only get 10 shots, so diminishing returns.

I use my EDC double stack compact with a 20 round magazine swapped in when it goes in a quicksafe.

You can get excellent capacity in a handgun with one hand free and maneuverability that you can't get in a rifle. The law as I recall is iffy on using real PDW's for self defense so a large capticity handgun like the glock 17 and a 33 round magazine can't be beat. Plus they have factory optics mounts for a red dot.

I'm not a huge fan of the thinking behind weapon lights, in home defense situations I think it's a bad idea to have your light also be the barrel of your gun. It forces you to violate 2 of the 4 golden rules of guns and many police departments are finding officers violating 3 of the 4 with the switch near the trigger. The LAPD switched to m&p's with lights and saw their negligent discharge and accidental death rate go way up.

 

 

Frangible rounds solve that issue. .300 blackout is a great round for home defense.

 

https://www.bitetheb...-frangible-nato

 

Like many others, I have a pistol with a TLR light, loaded with Federal HSTs. I also keep a second light handy and would use the modified FBI high hand hold if I had a chance to reach the other light.



#85 Capt_Destro

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 09:32 AM

Currently its either a G21 with a 15 round magazine, or my Mossberg 590 Shockwave are my HD guns. I have a light, micro red dot, and sling on it. Ammo used is low recoil 00 buck, aiming with it isn't even an issue. After putting quite a few slugs through it and practicing with it I feel confident.

 

Due to the design of the raptor grip the recoil isn't bad at all. Also bringing a sight to eye level doesn't run the risk of smacking you in the face like a conventional pistol grip would. Though the red dot is a bit higher than the bead sight, that totally helps lol. The recoil impulse feels totally different. I thought about putting a brace on it but I really like how compact/streamlined it is.

 

The low recoil buckshot/slugs aren't bad at all. 

 

5FJ7Dt5.jpg

 

IL needs to legalize SBS already.


Edited by Capt_Destro, 18 September 2018 - 09:33 AM.

When picking a firearm, you want one that is like a heavy chick. A gun that is reliable, doesn't mind getting rough, and one that goes bang every time. What's the point of having something pretty looking it isn't up for the task?

#86 Euler

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 12:20 PM

"You don’t rise to the occasion. You sink to your level of training." Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.
Archilochus, c. 680 – c. 645 BC

Edited by Euler, 18 September 2018 - 12:20 PM.


#87 2smartby1/2

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Posted 21 September 2018 - 08:54 AM

 

Unless you live on a big piece of property you really don't want a rifle caliber anything for defense against intruders.

I built the smallest lightest 300blk pistol with this intention and the risk of overpenetration is too much, even with expanding rounds.

Your best bet is to look at handgun caliber PDW's or just a full sized handgun with a big magazine.

If you really want to stick to the AR platform look at the 458 socom or 50 beowulf, ballistics are very similar to the s&w 460 and 500 revolver rounds. But you only get 10 shots, so diminishing returns.

I use my EDC double stack compact with a 20 round magazine swapped in when it goes in a quicksafe.

You can get excellent capacity in a handgun with one hand free and maneuverability that you can't get in a rifle. The law as I recall is iffy on using real PDW's for self defense so a large capticity handgun like the glock 17 and a 33 round magazine can't be beat. Plus they have factory optics mounts for a red dot.

I'm not a huge fan of the thinking behind weapon lights, in home defense situations I think it's a bad idea to have your light also be the barrel of your gun. It forces you to violate 2 of the 4 golden rules of guns and many police departments are finding officers violating 3 of the 4 with the switch near the trigger. The LAPD switched to m&p's with lights and saw their negligent discharge and accidental death rate go way up.

 

 

Frangible rounds solve that issue. .300 blackout is a great round for home defense.

 

https://www.bitetheb...-frangible-nato

 

Like many others, I have a pistol with a TLR light, loaded with Federal HSTs. I also keep a second light handy and would use the modified FBI high hand hold if I had a chance to reach the other light.

 

You might be on to something with the frangible ammo. 

 

I started researching that, but I've only found one gel test.  I need to find more, specifically in .300....both super and sub. 






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