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FTIP delays June 2020


Illini2A312

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Have an FFL transfer I'll need to start paperwork for this weekend. Are most people getting delayed at this point, even if they've generally had instant approvals before the pandemic started ramping up?

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=75414&hl=

 

...The mandatory 72-hour background check — required by the state before getting a gun — has stretched to more than a week for some of his customers. On Monday, he was still waiting on five backgrounds he submitted on June 16, eight from June 17 and seven from Thursday.

 

The firearms services bureau of the Illinois State Police is taking an average of 94 business hours — not counting holidays, weekends, the day the gun is purchased, or the day the sale is approved or denied — to process background checks, roughly a day longer than usual, according to state police spokeswoman Beth Hundsdorfer....

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I bought a new Glock at the Shoot Point Blank in Mokena last week and was approved right away.

FWIW, I got checked today. The result returned clear immediately, but I've always gotten immediate results. (No SSN, of course.)I think that, if you typically have to wait, expect to wait longer.

Thanks, this answers my question. My checks have always been instant approved so I was trying to figure out if these absurd delays were happening for everyone or just for people who typically get delayed.

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As you are allowed to proceed with transfer 72 hours after running the check anyway, who cares if they are not doing their job.

There is a difference of opinion between yourself and the ISP

 

Q7. What happens if a customer orders a firearm, and when he or she comes in to pick it up, ISP issues something other than an approval on the FTIP?

 

A. The actual transfer of the firearm cannot take place until there is an approval from the FTIP system, regardless of when the agreement was reached. If the FFL receives a transaction number, they cannot complete the transfer until they receive an approval.

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there is also a difference in what the ISP says, in their FAQ, and what the statute's plain language actually says.

 

I can also show you where the ISP says replica muzzleloaders require a FOID card, but can show you in the regulations where is says you dont, and have the sworn deposition testimony of the head is the ISP FSB that says you don't, so what does that prove? The FAQ is wrong in two places.

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Background checks are taking 6-8 days to clear unless you get an "instant approval." Also, coming early to do a background check might become a thing of the past. The new ATF Background Check Forms (4473) are going to require all firearm info before a background check can be ran. Many receipts will show the firearm info but not the serial number and if you bought an imported firearm, like the Mossberg Int'l 20ga that's made in Turkey, best practice will have you wait until the firearm arrives because you don't know who the Turkey Mfg is. Sometimes the distributor will show, on the invoice right before shipment, the serial number of the firearm being shipped to you but running a background as soon as that shows up might be pushing it.

 

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

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FTIP is placed

72 hours pass and the FFL hands over the firearm without the numbers to put on the paperwork

Now, 6 days later the FFL gets a denied response from the ISP/FTIP

Think they are going to track peeps down and then gave a **** ton of used firearms to unload? Think not.

 

Covering ones a** is better business than losing your business skirting paper details.

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IL State law requires an FTIP Approval before you can transfer the firearm. But what you described ^^^ happens alot in states that go by federal law only, they call it, "The Brady Date." That's the date NICS gives to the FFL dealer that if there is no Denial response, you can legally transfer the firearm. We don't have that in IL.
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When you say go ahead with the transfer are you talking about a p2p purchase and transfer?

If this is the case, then yes the ISP relies on the FOID check on their site and gives a transfer number to be included on the transfer form.

If not, can you post the LGS who gives firearms out without an approval?

I thought the OP was referring to a firearm purchased at a federally licensed dealer when it comes to delays on bcg checks. As far as P2P, the FOID check should be instant, the ISP is only allowed to do a state check using the FOID Check System. I don't personally know of any IL LGS that will transfer a firearm without an FTIP Approval. If there are some that do and the FTIP later on shows a Denial or a "forever pending," that FFL Dealer is going to Club Fed. In states like; Arizona, Texas, etc. a federally licensed dealer is allowed to transfer a firearm after the "Brady Date" has passed and NICS has not issued a denial.

 

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

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I have ran 300+ bcg checks and one thing I noticed is, if you get a pending it was always be a pending and if you get an "instant approval" it will always be an "instant approval." I only had one instance where an "instant approval" guy got a pending during the beginning of the Corona Virus closings. Also, I have had 2 "instant approval" guys get a pending for like 5 minutes. If you log off of FTIP and log back in it will change that quick. I have a customer who did 3 transfers with me and got all "instant approvals" but on this day he got a pending. The weather was bad and sometimes the system will go down, it is debatable whether it's the NICS System or the FTIP System, so the software will always kick a pending. If you log off and log back on again, sometimes, it will open back up again and clear that pending that you just submitted 5 minutes ago. The system is like Terminator, it has a mind of its own.

 

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

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When you say go ahead with the transfer are you talking about a p2p purchase and transfer?

If this is the case, then yes the ISP relies on the FOID check on their site and gives a transfer number to be included on the transfer form.

If not, can you post the LGS who gives firearms out without an approval?

I thought the OP was referring to a firearm purchased at a federally licensed dealer when it comes to delays on bcg checks. As far as P2P, the FOID check should be instant, the ISP is only allowed to do a state check using the FOID Check System. I don't personally know of any IL LGS that will transfer a firearm without an FTIP Approval. If there are some that do and the FTIP later on shows a Denial or a "forever pending," that FFL Dealer is going to Club Fed. In states like; Arizona, Texas, etc. a federally licensed dealer is allowed to transfer a firearm after the "Brady Date" has passed and NICS has not issued a denial.

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

The language in the statutes and rules could arguably be read either way, but if I were the dealer I would ask myself if its worth the risk to transfer without approval. I would say no.

 

I believe there is also language in the new dealer licensing law that references a dealer being required to receive an approval before transferring the firearm.

 

All things read together, Id say any FFL who transfers the firearm without an approval is taking a huge risk.

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Federal law allows transferring a firearm after the "Brady Date" has passed and NICS does not enter a Denial in the software. FFL Dealers in "free states" do it all the time. IL Law does not allow that, it's not debatable. During my ATF IOI interview, he said state law will not allow a transfer even after the "Brady Date." IL Law requires an Approval through FTIP. This law is Pre-Gun Licensing Bill.

 

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

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Hello everyone, and again thank you illinoiscarry.com for your help with CCL. My question has to do with the FTIP system. I am a recently new FFL out of Plainfield, IL and I've been trying for the last two weeks to contact the ISP FTIP # and it states there closed due to unforeseen circumstances, does anyone know how a new FFL can register on the Dealer portal? it seems its down for new registration or how long it maybe.. i obtain my FFL June 22, 2020 and still have not been able to contact anyone over at ISP. I am at a lost on how to proceed.... Also my Dealer certification is still pending... any help would be appreciated. I know FTIP is taking up to a week to process from what i hear, is there a loop hole that i can transfer a firearms as person to person since i hold an FFL im kinda on the fence about it.. But if the state is closed because of covid19 how can I register with FTIP?

 

Joe P- Owner

USA Veteran Firearms Training, LLC

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Hello everyone, and again thank you illinoiscarry.com for your help with CCL. My question has to do with the FTIP system. I am a recently new FFL out of Plainfield, IL and I've been trying for the last two weeks to contact the ISP FTIP # and it states there closed due to unforeseen circumstances, does anyone know how a new FFL can register on the Dealer portal? it seems its down for new registration or how long it maybe.. i obtain my FFL June 22, 2020 and still have not been able to contact anyone over at ISP. I am at a lost on how to proceed.... Also my Dealer certification is still pending... any help would be appreciated. I know FTIP is taking up to a week to process from what i hear, is there a loop hole that i can transfer a firearms as person to person since i hold an FFL im kinda on the fence about it.. But if the state is closed because of covid19 how can I register with FTIP?

 

Joe P- Owner

USA Veteran Firearms Training, LLC

Does your FFL License say July 01, 2020? If yes, you have to wait until then for you to be allowed to have access to FTIP. Also, I believe you have to fill out your application for the gun licensing law (FDLC) in order to have access to FTIP. After the initial problems the state had with the rollout, all they asked later was for the dealer to have a signed affidavit that your FFL License is valid. That was enough to have FTIP access. This is how the top of your FTIP screen will look when you are logged in:

post-18810-0-95064000-1594180551_thumb.png

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Thank you for the reply and my FFL only says my expiration date of July 1, 2023. My (FDLC) is still in pending status, been about 3weeks now since I first applied. Hopefully it gets approved soon. Thanks again.

 

Joe P. -owner

 

USA Veteran Firearms Training, LLC

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Federal law allows transferring a firearm after the "Brady Date" has passed and NICS does not enter a Denial in the software. FFL Dealers in "free states" do it all the time. IL Law does not allow that, it's not debatable. During my ATF IOI interview, he said state law will not allow a transfer even after the "Brady Date." IL Law requires an Approval through FTIP. This law is Pre-Gun Licensing Bill.

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

Just to clarify, I think were talking past each other here, saying the same thing in different ways. The language in the statute actually is debatable, like everything else that isnt crystal clear, and there was discussion about it years ago. The State sided with requiring approval, and ATF is likely going to defer to the State, especially a point of contact State, and their interpretation of that States statute unless its complete nonsense. My point about risk is: to my knowledge that interpretation has never been challenged in Court, so is it worth the risk on an FFLs end to turn over a firearm after the clock has run, but no approval has been given, then get charged for doing so, and challenge the statutory interpretation in court? No, I wouldnt do it. Especially after there is a pretty clear additional evidence of the States interpretation in the new dealer licensing law. And its doubtful anybody in power now is going to support a change that makes that interpretation more dealer friendly.
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Federal law allows transferring a firearm after the "Brady Date" has passed and NICS does not enter a Denial in the software. FFL Dealers in "free states" do it all the time. IL Law does not allow that, it's not debatable. During my ATF IOI interview, he said state law will not allow a transfer even after the "Brady Date." IL Law requires an Approval through FTIP. This law is Pre-Gun Licensing Bill.

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

Just to clarify, I think were talking past each other here, saying the same thing in different ways. The language in the statute actually is debatable, like everything else that isnt crystal clear, and there was discussion about it years ago. The State sided with requiring approval, and ATF is likely going to defer to the State, especially a point of contact State, and their interpretation of that States statute unless its complete nonsense. My point about risk is: to my knowledge that interpretation has never been challenged in Court, so is it worth the risk on an FFLs end to turn over a firearm after the clock has run, but no approval has been given, then get charged for doing so, and challenge the statutory interpretation in court? No, I wouldnt do it. Especially after there is a pretty clear additional evidence of the States interpretation in the new dealer licensing law. And its doubtful anybody in power now is going to support a change that makes that interpretation more dealer friendly.
I guess I am not understanding your viewpoint of interpretation on the IL 3day waiting period pending Approval. My ATF IOI guy during the interview stated IL does not have a "Brady Date." An Approval is required per state law and 72hrs must pass from the "agreement." The ISP requires an Approval before I am allowed to transfer any firearm, including LEO. My IOI guy has explained some very unclear language in federal law vs state law but the required Approval was very clear by him and ISP. Other dealers I have spoken with in IL acknowledge the Approval as a requirement for any firearm transfer with the only exception being gun dealers and to be extremely specific, sole proprietor dealers who are buying firearms for themselves do not have to undergo a background check. If there was at one time a different interpretation on whether an Approval was required to transfer a firearm vs going by the "Brady Date," I'm all ears, send me what you read so I could be aware of that in the future.

 

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

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Federal law allows transferring a firearm after the "Brady Date" has passed and NICS does not enter a Denial in the software. FFL Dealers in "free states" do it all the time. IL Law does not allow that, it's not debatable. During my ATF IOI interview, he said state law will not allow a transfer even after the "Brady Date." IL Law requires an Approval through FTIP. This law is Pre-Gun Licensing Bill.

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

Just to clarify, I think were talking past each other here, saying the same thing in different ways. The language in the statute actually is debatable, like everything else that isnt crystal clear, and there was discussion about it years ago. The State sided with requiring approval, and ATF is likely going to defer to the State, especially a point of contact State, and their interpretation of that States statute unless its complete nonsense. My point about risk is: to my knowledge that interpretation has never been challenged in Court, so is it worth the risk on an FFLs end to turn over a firearm after the clock has run, but no approval has been given, then get charged for doing so, and challenge the statutory interpretation in court? No, I wouldnt do it. Especially after there is a pretty clear additional evidence of the States interpretation in the new dealer licensing law. And its doubtful anybody in power now is going to support a change that makes that interpretation more dealer friendly.
I guess I am not understanding your viewpoint of interpretation on the IL 3day waiting period pending Approval. My ATF IOI guy during the interview stated IL does not have a "Brady Date." An Approval is required per state law and 72hrs must pass from the "agreement." The ISP requires an Approval before I am allowed to transfer any firearm, including LEO. My IOI guy has explained some very unclear language in federal law vs state law but the required Approval was very clear by him and ISP. Other dealers I have spoken with in IL acknowledge the Approval as a requirement for any firearm transfer with the only exception being gun dealers and to be extremely specific, sole proprietor dealers who are buying firearms for themselves do not have to undergo a background check. If there was at one time a different interpretation on whether an Approval was required to transfer a firearm vs going by the "Brady Date," I'm all ears, send me what you read so I could be aware of that in the future.

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

Again, Im not disagreeing with your understanding, Im just saying its not as black and white as it seems, and really relies on a long-winded interpretation by the State. There is nothing in the statute that plainly and clearly says a dealer cannot transfer until they receive and approval. What it says is that the Department is required to conduct a check, and, within the time required under the criminal code (which is 72 hours) approve or deny the transfer, provide a number, etc. The criminal code says that a dealer cannot transfer to someone who is prohibited. The administrative rules on FTIP say that the department provides an approval, denial, or conditional denial, and when a conditional denial is sent the dealer cannot transfer without an approval or the waiting period expires. It then goes on to say that when no response is given, that doesnt relieve the dealer of any responsibility that may be elsewhere, etc, etc.

 

Thats a long-winded, paraphrased way of saying, its not as clear one way or the other as it could be. In fact a lot of it is clear as mud. The State has read everything together and interpreted it as requiring a dealer to receive an approval before transferring, even if that takes longer than 72 hours. And that has never been challenged in court, as far as I know. And until it is, and overruled (which I think is doubtful), it is the law.

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Federal law allows transferring a firearm after the "Brady Date" has passed and NICS does not enter a Denial in the software. FFL Dealers in "free states" do it all the time. IL Law does not allow that, it's not debatable. During my ATF IOI interview, he said state law will not allow a transfer even after the "Brady Date." IL Law requires an Approval through FTIP. This law is Pre-Gun Licensing Bill.

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

Just to clarify, I think were talking past each other here, saying the same thing in different ways. The language in the statute actually is debatable, like everything else that isnt crystal clear, and there was discussion about it years ago. The State sided with requiring approval, and ATF is likely going to defer to the State, especially a point of contact State, and their interpretation of that States statute unless its complete nonsense. My point about risk is: to my knowledge that interpretation has never been challenged in Court, so is it worth the risk on an FFLs end to turn over a firearm after the clock has run, but no approval has been given, then get charged for doing so, and challenge the statutory interpretation in court? No, I wouldnt do it. Especially after there is a pretty clear additional evidence of the States interpretation in the new dealer licensing law. And its doubtful anybody in power now is going to support a change that makes that interpretation more dealer friendly.
I guess I am not understanding your viewpoint of interpretation on the IL 3day waiting period pending Approval. My ATF IOI guy during the interview stated IL does not have a "Brady Date." An Approval is required per state law and 72hrs must pass from the "agreement." The ISP requires an Approval before I am allowed to transfer any firearm, including LEO. My IOI guy has explained some very unclear language in federal law vs state law but the required Approval was very clear by him and ISP. Other dealers I have spoken with in IL acknowledge the Approval as a requirement for any firearm transfer with the only exception being gun dealers and to be extremely specific, sole proprietor dealers who are buying firearms for themselves do not have to undergo a background check. If there was at one time a different interpretation on whether an Approval was required to transfer a firearm vs going by the "Brady Date," I'm all ears, send me what you read so I could be aware of that in the future.

Ernesto A Alcala-Owner

Ernie's Arms Accessories

Again, Im not disagreeing with your understanding, Im just saying its not as black and white as it seems, and really relies on a long-winded interpretation by the State. There is nothing in the statute that plainly and clearly says a dealer cannot transfer until they receive and approval. What it says is that the Department is required to conduct a check, and, within the time required under the criminal code (which is 72 hours) approve or deny the transfer, provide a number, etc. The criminal code says that a dealer cannot transfer to someone who is prohibited. The administrative rules on FTIP say that the department provides an approval, denial, or conditional denial, and when a conditional denial is sent the dealer cannot transfer without an approval or the waiting period expires. It then goes on to say that when no response is given, that doesnt relieve the dealer of any responsibility that may be elsewhere, etc, etc.

Thats a long-winded, paraphrased way of saying, its not as clear one way or the other as it could be. In fact a lot of it is clear as mud. The State has read everything together and interpreted it as requiring a dealer to receive an approval before transferring, even if that takes longer than 72 hours. And that has never been challenged in court, as far as I know. And until it is, and overruled (which I think is doubtful), it is the law.

That was much clearer, appreciate the info.

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  • 2 weeks later...

My last point will simply be that of "deference". As the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly noted, the goverment's interpretation of a criminal statute not only is not entitled to any deference, it is irrelevant.

 

I'll also say this, maybe I am persnickety, but if I don't personally know the buyer, and I get any bad smell on a transaction, no sale, whether its been 72 hours, or no, whether they have ISP approval, or not. I'd rather be out a little money than sell to someone that would illegally hurt someone.

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My last point will simply be that of "deference". As the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly noted, the goverment's interpretation of a criminal statute not only is not entitled to any deference, it is irrelevant.

 

I'll also say this, maybe I am persnickety, but if I don't personally know the buyer, and I get any bad smell on a transaction, no sale, whether its been 72 hours, or no, whether they have ISP approval, or not. I'd rather be out a little money than sell to someone that would illegally hurt someone.

The point of “deference” is that statues, and the State’s interpretation and enforcement of the statute, is presumed to be correct and constitutional unless and until a Court decides otherwise. Should you be willing to risk transferring without approval, having something happen and be potentially charged with a crime based on the State’s interpretation, you are more than free to use that as your defense against the charges. I think it would be a stupid chance to take, and not worth the risk. That’s a lot of money to spend money on attorneys (which you won’t be reimbursed for), with a very good chance you’d lose that argument, for the sole purpose of challenging an interpretation that lets you complete a sale maybe a few days quicker.

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