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CC & outdoor events.


RoyB

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Now that it's getting warmer out I figured I better brush up on my outdoor events.

 

(10) Any public gathering or special event conducted on property open to the public that requires the issuance of a permit from the unit of local government, provided this prohibition shall not apply to a licensee who must walk through a public gathering in order to access his or her residence, place of business, or vehicle.

 

Not to split hairs here, but some events you have to pay before entering and some are 100% free & "open to the public". I assume that any event/fest is off limits as I imagine most any street fest would require a permit from the "local government". What about a fest like Country Thunder that is on private grounds and put on by a private company? I realize that is Wisconsin, but if in IL, would it be off limits?

 

(17) Any stadium, arena, or the real property or parking area under the control of a stadium, arena, or any collegiate or professional sporting event.

 

My GFs daughter is in horse shows sometimes. Held at a private stable. No cost to watch, only participate. It is not professional in nature. Would that fall under the above or is it most likely exempt?

 

(11) Any building or real property that has been issued a Special Event Retailer's license as defined in Section 1-3.17.1 of the Liquor Control Act during the time designated for the sale of alcohol by the Special Event Retailer's license, or a Special use permit license as defined in subsection (q) of Section 5-1 of the Liquor Control Act during the time designated for the sale of alcohol by the Special use permit license.

 

I assume this would pretty much prohibit any of the above if they served alcohol? How are CC holders supposed to know if the event we are attending has been issued a special event license?

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The best indicator of the prohibition of legally carried firearms is the conspicuous presence of the legally required state approved sign to prohibit lawful carry.

 

While it is expected of us to know the law, it is not our responsibility to divine what properties or events the law may or may not apply to.

 

 

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The best indicator of the prohibition of legally carried firearms is the conspicuous presence of the legally required state approved sign to prohibit lawful carry. While it is expected of us to know the law, it is not our responsibility to divine what properties or events the law may or may not apply to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

This. Carry until you see a sign telling you not to.

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The best indicator of the prohibition of legally carried firearms is the conspicuous presence of the legally required state approved sign to prohibit lawful carry. While it is expected of us to know the law, it is not our responsibility to divine what properties or events the law may or may not apply to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Generally I follow that mentality, but where would the signs be posted at an outdoor event? Especially something like a cruise night where there isn't an "entrance". Are CC forest preserves posted?

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The best indicator of the prohibition of legally carried firearms is the conspicuous presence of the legally required state approved sign to prohibit lawful carry. While it is expected of us to know the law, it is not our responsibility to divine what properties or events the law may or may not apply to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Generally I follow that mentality, but where would the signs be posted at an outdoor event? Especially something like a cruise night where there isn't an "entrance". Are CC forest preserves posted?

 

 

My opinion is that it's not your (or my) problem. If an outdoor event is to be prohibited, then they should set a perimeter with controlled entrances and post accordingly. I stand by my previous statement.. carry until you see a sign telling you that you can't.

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The best indicator of the prohibition of legally carried firearms is the conspicuous presence of the legally required state approved sign to prohibit lawful carry. While it is expected of us to know the law, it is not our responsibility to divine what properties or events the law may or may not apply to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Generally I follow that mentality, but where would the signs be posted at an outdoor event? Especially something like a cruise night where there isn't an "entrance". Are CC forest preserves posted?

 

 

My opinion is that it's not your (or my) problem. If an outdoor event is to be prohibited, then they should set a perimeter with controlled entrances and post accordingly. I stand by my previous statement.. carry until you see a sign telling you that you can't.

 

 

What if it's not posted but you get pat downs at the entrance?

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What if it's not posted but you get pat downs at the entrance?

 

Refuse the pat down. Or let them do it, and if they object to your carrying concealed, inform them of the requirement to post.

 

 

I would like to see this played out in real life (not arguing). I agree with the posting because it's so confusing when not entering a building.

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Pat downs? No way I'm ever going to submit to a pat down anywhere. Is this the Soviet Union?

 

I think it's obvious the law is problematic. There's almost no way to know if an event is "permitted" or not. I think requiring permitted events to post is a little ridiculous too. As was said, many don't have a defined perimeter.

I would not let a lack of signs deter me...but most outdoor events do require a permit...even those events that are put on by a city. For instance, the "national night out" put on by your municipality most likely has issued itself a permit. I don't know if cruise nights have permits since they're basically held, for the most part, on public streets.

Of course, all of this could be solved by changing the law to something that makes sense. On the other hand, the law says the CCL holder must "knowingly" violate a GFZ. I'm not sure how they know if you knowingly or unknowingly violated the zone. I guess they can read your mind?

 

My guess is the average CCL holder is not going to go wild and become a mass murderer once he or she enters a permitted event. I don't even know why it's an issue. But, I'm preaching to the choir here...

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On the other hand, the law says the CCL holder must "knowingly" violate a GFZ. I'm not sure how they know if you knowingly or unknowingly violated the zone. I guess they can read your mind?

 

This is the exact reason for the signage requirement, which is exactly what I follow.

 

If a location is not obviously prohibited (hospital, school, etc), and it's not posted, I'm carrying. Period.

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On the other hand, the law says the CCL holder must "knowingly" violate a GFZ. I'm not sure how they know if you knowingly or unknowingly violated the zone. I guess they can read your mind?

 

This is the exact reason for the signage requirement, which is exactly what I follow.

 

If a location is not obviously prohibited (hospital, school, etc), and it's not posted, I'm carrying. Period.

 

 

Use your conscience, what else can I tell you? The reality is, if you're doing it right no one will know you're carrying anyway.

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The best indicator of the prohibition of legally carried firearms is the conspicuous presence of the legally required state approved sign to prohibit lawful carry. While it is expected of us to know the law, it is not our responsibility to divine what properties or events the law may or may not apply to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Generally I follow that mentality, but where would the signs be posted at an outdoor event? Especially something like a cruise night where there isn't an "entrance". Are CC forest preserves posted?

 

Cook County Forest Preserves are generally not posted, but they are part of the 23 categories of prohibited places in the FCCL. You are responsible for knowing the "23 Categories", regardless of whether or not signs are posted.

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There are some places that concealed carry is not allowed. Just because it isn't posted, doesn't mean you can carry. You should know the law and rules. There are places that signs can't be posted. Especially outdoor events. If you get caught carrying where it is prohibited, ignorance of the law doesn't cut it. You were supposed to be taught the rules before you received your permit. You should abide by the law as best possible, not see if you can circumvent the law by defiance.

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Tell me, where in the carry law is the requirement for a licensee to know where all the property boundaries are in the state, and who owns each property, and from where to where each outdoor events' permits cover?

 

How about playgrounds? What exactly is that? Does that mean there's playground equipment present? How about in a state park? Is that the mowed area next to bbq pits where the kids are running around but there's no equipment?

 

How about if I pull over out in the country to change a flat, and I step over into a field, that unbeknownst to me belongs to the U of I, am I in violation if there's no sign?

 

Practically speaking, how can anyone be expected to know where all of these prohibited locations are if they don't post the *REQUIRED* sign?

 

 

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There are some places that concealed carry is not allowed. Just because it isn't posted, doesn't mean you can carry. You should know the law and rules. There are places that signs can't be posted. Especially outdoor events. If you get caught carrying where it is prohibited, ignorance of the law doesn't cut it. You were supposed to be taught the rules before you received your permit. You should abide by the law as best possible, not see if you can circumvent the law by defiance.

 

Sorry, I disagree. I am not looking to circumvent the law, I am looking to follow the law.

 

Under the law ALL statutorily prohibited places, including those under discussion here, are REQUIRED to post unless they are a private residence.

If I KNOW a place is statutorily prohibited then I'll not carry regardless of posting, however, if I DO NOT KNOW that a place is prohibited and IT IS NOT posted I will carry, and feel free to do so. It is not incumbent upon me to determine whether an event requires a permit and should be posted, it is incumbent upon the event organizers to post if they are required to do so.

 

Reference Section 65 Paragraph (d).

 

 

Now, to further muddy the waters with respect to any outdoor event held on public streets, EVEN IF BY PERMIT, paragraph © of section 65 would seem to say that if one were to stay on public rights of way even within the boundaries of the event carry IS allowed.

 

 

© A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section

4 while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that

5 touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a),

6 (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is

7 carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions

8 of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the

9 licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of

10 law.

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There are some places that concealed carry is not allowed. Just because it isn't posted, doesn't mean you can carry. You should know the law and rules. There are places that signs can't be posted. Especially outdoor events. If you get caught carrying where it is prohibited, ignorance of the law doesn't cut it. You were supposed to be taught the rules before you received your permit. You should abide by the law as best possible, not see if you can circumvent the law by defiance.

Sorry, I disagree. I am not looking to circumvent the law, I am looking to follow the law.

 

Under the law ALL statutorily prohibited places, including those under discussion here, are REQUIRED to post unless they are a private residence.

If I KNOW a place is statutorily prohibited then I'll not carry regardless of posting, however, if I DO NOT KNOW that a place is prohibited and IT IS NOT posted I will carry, and feel free to do so. It is not incumbent upon me to determine whether an event requires a permit and should be posted, it is incumbent upon the event organizers to post if they are required to do so.

 

Reference Section 65 Paragraph (d).

 

 

Now, to further muddy the waters with respect to any outdoor event held on public streets, EVEN IF BY PERMIT, paragraph © of section 65 would seem to say that if one were to stay on public rights of way even within the boundaries of the event carry IS allowed.

 

 

© A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section

4 while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that

5 touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a),

6 (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is

7 carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions

8 of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the

9 licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of

10 law.

 

Wow, as to your last item --- good find! Never noticed that before. Loosens things up quite a bit.

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Yes, that is correct, if you are passing through an outdoor event, not staying and participating, you can carry through. That is allowed by law.

But someone posted, if they go to a hospital, which everyone knows by law can't be carried, if it isn't posted, they are carrying anyway. That should not be allowed.

Yes there are gray areas, if it is not definitive if carrying is allowed or not, then you are not breaking the law.

In my city, there is a bar. They sell little food. Almost all of their income is from the sale of alcohol. By statute, carrying is not allowed. It is not posted, but anyone that knows the place, knows, by law, it is not legal to carry in that bar. Should it be posted, yes, but it isn't but I won't carry in there because when I go there it is to consume.

In my book, even if it isn't properly posted, there are areas where we are not allowed to carry and should not. Just because it isn't posted doesn't mean you should carry there anyway.

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Yes, that is correct, if you are passing through an outdoor event, not staying and participating, you can carry through. That is allowed by law.

But someone posted, if they go to a hospital, which everyone knows by law can't be carried, if it isn't posted, they are carrying anyway. That should not be allowed.

Yes there are gray areas, if it is not definitive if carrying is allowed or not, then you are not breaking the law.

In my city, there is a bar. They sell little food. Almost all of their income is from the sale of alcohol. By statute, carrying is not allowed. It is not posted, but anyone that knows the place, knows, by law, it is not legal to carry in that bar. Should it be posted, yes, but it isn't but I won't carry in there because when I go there it is to consume.In my book, even if it isn't properly posted, there are areas where we are not allowed to carry and should not. Just because it isn't posted doesn't mean you should carry there anyway.

 

How does everyone know this? How would anyone passing through know this? There is NO way that you can make this claim unless you are the owner or the bookkeeper. This is why the sign is required, and in this case, under the penalty of law. It would be my assumption, because I DO know the law, that the bar did NOT make 51%+ on alcohol sales, because no one in their right mind would risk the fine, the liability, and their livelihood by intentionally not posting the sign on a bar.

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Yes, that is correct, if you are passing through an outdoor event, not staying and participating, you can carry through. That is allowed by law.

But someone posted, if they go to a hospital, which everyone knows by law can't be carried, if it isn't posted, they are carrying anyway. That should not be allowed.

Yes there are gray areas, if it is not definitive if carrying is allowed or not, then you are not breaking the law.

In my city, there is a bar. They sell little food. Almost all of their income is from the sale of alcohol. By statute, carrying is not allowed. It is not posted, but anyone that knows the place, knows, by law, it is not legal to carry in that bar. Should it be posted, yes, but it isn't but I won't carry in there because when I go there it is to consume.In my book, even if it isn't properly posted, there are areas where we are not allowed to carry and should not. Just because it isn't posted doesn't mean you should carry there anyway.

How does everyone know this? How would anyone passing through know this? There is NO way that you can make this claim unless you are the owner or the bookkeeper. This is why the sign is required, and in this case, under the penalty of law. It would be my assumption, because I DO know the law, that the bar did NOT make 51%+ on alcohol sales, because no one in their right mind would risk the fine, the liability, and their livelihood by intentionally not posting the sign on a bar.

 

That is why I included the part that I highlighted in blue. "Anyone that know the place" knows. Yes, anyone just passing through would not know, but if you are going to a place that just serves alcohol, you better not be carrying anyway.

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Yes, that is correct, if you are passing through an outdoor event, not staying and participating, you can carry through. That is allowed by law.

But someone posted, if they go to a hospital, which everyone knows by law can't be carried, if it isn't posted, they are carrying anyway. That should not be allowed.

Yes there are gray areas, if it is not definitive if carrying is allowed or not, then you are not breaking the law.

In my city, there is a bar. They sell little food. Almost all of their income is from the sale of alcohol. By statute, carrying is not allowed. It is not posted, but anyone that knows the place, knows, by law, it is not legal to carry in that bar. Should it be posted, yes, but it isn't but I won't carry in there because when I go there it is to consume.

In my book, even if it isn't properly posted, there are areas where we are not allowed to carry and should not. Just because it isn't posted doesn't mean you should carry there anyway.

 

 

You are certainly welcome to your opinions but that is not what the law actually states. I choose to follow what the law actually does state AND I expect others to as well.

 

The law is very specific as to where I cannot carry, by the same token, that same law is very specific as to the requirement to post.

No body gets a pass.

I will not KNOWINGLY carry where I am not allowed to, however, lacking the REQUIRED postings how am I to KNOW the conditions have been met to prohibit carry?

 

Some are easy, many are not - it's not the easy ones we're talking about. If everybody follows the law we are good, however, I should not be punished because some choose not to do their part. Again, not looking to circumvent the law - just looking for everyone to follow it.

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Yes, that is correct, if you are passing through an outdoor event, not staying and participating, you can carry through. That is allowed by law.

But someone posted, if they go to a hospital, which everyone knows by law can't be carried, if it isn't posted, they are carrying anyway. That should not be allowed.

Yes there are gray areas, if it is not definitive if carrying is allowed or not, then you are not breaking the law.

In my city, there is a bar. They sell little food. Almost all of their income is from the sale of alcohol. By statute, carrying is not allowed. It is not posted, but anyone that knows the place, knows, by law, it is not legal to carry in that bar. Should it be posted, yes, but it isn't but I won't carry in there because when I go there it is to consume.

In my book, even if it isn't properly posted, there are areas where we are not allowed to carry and should not. Just because it isn't posted doesn't mean you should carry there anyway.

 

You are certainly welcome to your opinions but that is not what the law actually states. I choose to follow what the law actually does state AND I expect others to as well.

 

The law is very specific as to where I cannot carry, by the same token, that same law is very specific as to the requirement to post.

No body gets a pass.

I will not KNOWINGLY carry where I am not allowed to, however, lacking the REQUIRED postings how am I to KNOW the conditions have been met to prohibit carry?

 

Some are easy, many are not - it's not the easy ones we're talking about. If everybody follows the law we are good, however, I should not be punished because some choose not to do their part. Again, not looking to circumvent the law - just looking for everyone to follow it.

 

But if you know, like I know my bar, would you carry anyway because it is not posted? I am talking about the places that you know for certain are prohibited by law but are not posted.

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IMO, I would not go out of my way to turn every event into a "prohibited event". If something obviously falls under the "prohibited categories", then that is one thing. If it's not directly & obviously under one of those categories, I would consider it "legal to carry" unless posted otherwise. No need to try and guess and see how it "might / possibly / under some scenarios" be covered.

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A lot of the shows and cruises we go to are held in private parking lots and the owners do NOT bother with permits. I know this for a fact. I carry at these events. Unfortunately there are some events held on public property (Hampshire Twilight, Huntley Village Square, Fiesta Days, etc) and these shows do have permits (the permit is required to close the street) which means you can't even bring a gun to the event when you are participating.

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But someone posted, if they go to a hospital, which everyone knows by law can't be carried, if it isn't posted, they are carrying anyway. That should not be allowed.

 

You misunderstood what I posted:

 

"If a location is not obviously prohibited (hospital, school, etc), and it's not posted, I'm carrying. Period."

 

Meaning hospitals, schools, etc ARE obviously prohibited. It's hard to not know that a hospital is a hospital, a school is a school, etc.

 

I'm referring to places which are NOT obviously prohibited. If it's not posted, I'm carrying.

 

By the way, that would also include the bar example you provided. It is not my job to know, or even care, how much money a place makes from alcohol sales. Case in point, the "home" bar for the pool league I shoot for has no kitchen. They have 3 video gambling machines which I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone playing them, a jukebox and an ATM. They are not posted. I carry.

 

 

 

A lot of the shows and cruises we go to are held in private parking lots and the owners do NOT bother with permits. I know this for a fact. I carry at these events. Unfortunately there are some events held on public property (Hampshire Twilight, Huntley Village Square, Fiesta Days, etc) and these shows do have permits (the permit is required to close the street) which means you can't even bring a gun to the event when you are participating.

 

Assuming you're referring to car shows and cruises, unless they are being held on federal or nuclear parking lots, you are absolutely allowed to carry in your car, and store it in your car if you're getting out to participate in the show.

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