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Too good for range qualification?

range qualify accuracy instructor training concealed carry license shooting

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#1 hoopeystar

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 09:36 PM

During the explanation of the shooting qualification of my CCL course my instructor informed us that he could only count distinct bullet holes. He stated that if we were a great shot and 'shot out the bullseye' that we would fail the class as he could not count 21 distinct holes out of 30 (70%). Thoughts and opinions about this? 



#2 jumperj

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 09:43 PM

During the explanation of the shooting qualification of my CCL course my instructor informed us that he could only count distinct bullet holes. He stated that if we were a great shot and 'shot out the bullseye' that we would fail the class as he could not count 21 distinct holes out of 30 (70%). Thoughts and opinions about this? 

Maybe my instructor was doing it wrong, but my target only had 12 distinct holes. The one in the middle was the size of a golf ball and he said I passed.



#3 Hoffsoft

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 09:49 PM

Can you hold an CCL instructor card and a medical marijuana card simultaneously?  Asking for your instructor.



#4 Retiredguns

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 09:51 PM

Then I suggest not showing up with this...

 

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#5 Tip

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 09:54 PM

Perhaps time for a new instructor?
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#6 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 10:05 PM

I agree. You need a new instructor....

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#7 Molly B.

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 10:06 PM

He's covering his posterior.  Overly cautious, probably.


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#8 POAT54

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 10:30 PM

I heard an instructor say if you put a fist size hole he did not care if you put the rest into the floor.


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#9 Quiet Observer

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 11:17 PM

My instructor gave us about the same instructions when I qualified in December 2013.  We were supposed to put holes all over in the black torso.  He had us sign the target with marker and he took pictures of them for his records.  I think there was some confusion CYA then.  From what I understand the standard has been clarified.   I have seen instructors and others post on other threads about the clearer standards.  Of course none of the holes designate the distance.  It would seem that if someone can put 10 shots in a 3" group at 30ft, they would do at least as good at the shorter distances. 

 

Maybe the 30 shot requirement was pushed by the ammo industry to sell more bullets. ;)



#10 Gamma

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:37 AM

Thoughts and opinions about this? 

Your instructor is mentally deficient and you should find a different instructor.

 

Plus, if you watch someone shoot at the ranges of the FCCL qualification it would be obvious if their aim was so off as to be off the paper entirely, at least at the shorter distance.


Edited by Gamma, 30 January 2016 - 03:38 AM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#11 WARFACE

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 05:47 AM

My instructor said the same thing to me about spreading the holes out so he could count them. Even though he was a jerk, in his defense, he was being overly cautious about everything because it was all new. I took the training as soon as it was available and knowing what I know today, my instructor was full of ,well, baloney about alot of the things he was teaching. He wouldn't even give credit for prior training. Again, the law and curriculum was all brand new and he had his CYA program in effect, but any instructor still saying you have to spread your shots out should probably not be teaching. I think everyone who carries, owes it to themselves and others, to stay up to date on the carry law and any updates. That's what makes this site so valuable because this is where you get that info.


Edited by WARFACE, 30 January 2016 - 05:51 AM.

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#12 patriot1776

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 06:55 AM

So i guess these instructors don't want accurate shots ? I guess they don't care where a students of theirs shots go in a real shooting ?  " I was instructed , in my CCL training and qualification to spray my shots all around and not aim for the bullseye ."



#13 Terry 9595

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 08:24 AM

As the Instructor at Midwest Guns I have told Students that blowing out the X in the center is great and I will score all the hits.  But also I tell them any hit in the scoring part of the target is also great.

 

I teach them that hitting the X is great in the range, but on the street any hit counts!  Aim center mass and accept the results.


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#14 SFC Stu

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 08:51 AM

Shoot until the threat stops doing what he/.she/it is doing!



#15 Hap

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 09:17 AM

My instructor said something like this (spread 'em out so he could count) and was appalled when someone took him seriously.

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#16 kster

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 09:21 AM

t8AjWApl.jpg  my instructor passed me just fine.   yours should too



#17 hoopeystar

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 09:40 AM

Well it's a non-issue for me. I spread out each grouping of 10 shots from 5,7, and 10y (mid, top, bottom respectively) to a different spot. Judging by him only giving me '29/30'I think he might have seriously failed me if I punched out the red.

#18 gangrel

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 11:14 AM

For defensive shooting, pitting them all through the X ring at 10 yards means you're shooting too slow. That's not to say that you should purposely spread your shots around or that a tight group doesn't count. I thought all the instructors who were teaching this way had already washed out and gone back to teaching underwater basket weaving. Sadly, this appears not to be the case. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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#19 Quiet Observer

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 11:55 AM

I do not agree with those who say that OP should find a different instructor. If this instructor passes him, it would be a waste of time and money to take another FCCL class. The bone of contention here is the practical qualification. This is no information on how he taught the rest of the class. He may have done an excellent job of teaching all the requirements listed in the FCCA. If we compared 20 good instructors, they would not agree on every single aspect of the law and how it would apply in various situations. That does not mean that each of their classes is not well taught and informative. Anyone preparing to take the CCL should read the Firearm Concealed Carry Act, and later review and keep track of any changes.

The shooting qualification is little more than a ritual. I think all instructors teach that it is only a start and that everyone who has a gun for protection should practice regularly and seriously consider taking additional training.


Edited by Quiet Observer, 30 January 2016 - 11:56 AM.


#20 gangrel

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 12:19 PM

The issue is, the way the instructor teaches students on the range is indicative of his/her overall understanding of how to teach shooting. Teaching students to "spread their shots around" is instilling bad habits. Indeed, it is the opposite of what students (especially new ones) should be developing. Much of this comes from inexperienced instructors wh got certified to cash in on CCW. The NRA teaches instructors to score targets based on whether the line is broken. If a shot is touching or breaks a line, you give the higher score. No where does the NRA say anything about "spreading shots around" to "count individual holes." This is pretty basic stuff. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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#21 Rockdiver

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 12:23 PM

WOW.

Ill admit I have busted the chops of a student or two by telling them I can't score their target because of the lemon size hole....but I only did so until the look on their face hit confusion/panic.

Is it possible your instructor was just joking around with you? Some try to lighten it up for the newer shooters on the range....I hope...
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#22 Rockdiver

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 12:24 PM

The issue is, the way the instructor teaches students on the range is indicative of his/her overall understanding of how to teach shooting. Teaching students to "spread their shots around" is instilling bad habits. Indeed, it is the opposite of what students (especially new ones) should be developing. Much of this comes from inexperienced instructors wh got certified to cash in on CCW. The NRA teaches instructors to score targets based on whether the line is broken. If a shot is touching or breaks a line, you give the higher score. No where does the NRA say anything about "spreading shots around" to "count individual holes." This is pretty basic stuff.

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Agree. IF the instructor was serious, I would love to see how he taught the Legal segments.

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#23 Quiet Observer

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 02:43 PM

There is nothing in the OP that states that the instructor taught to spread shots around in actual combat. I will venture to say that all instructors require students to wear ear and eye protect when qualifying. The B-27 target has no face or legs, and often no arms or hands (no way to carry a weapon). So following the extrapolations here, all instructors are teaching their students that they can only defend themselves against faceless, legless, unarmed motionless assailants, and they must put on eye and eye protect first. What about those instructors who will provide a pistol (usually a .22) for those who have none to qualify? Are people claiming that those instructors are teaching those particular students that they should carry a .22?



#24 gangrel

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 02:55 PM

Apples and oranges on all you say except possibly the .22. I do not believe in having a CCW student qualify with a .22, though nothing in the rules prevent it. I just don't enable it by providing a .22. Whether you are wearing eye and ear protection or not, the shooting skills are the same. Shooting groups at center of mass reinforces those skills. Spreading shots around the paper so 30 individual holes are visible contributes nothing of value, and runs the risk of teaching new students bad habits. An instructor who is doing this needs to relearn how to teach or get out of teaching. He is doing more harm than good. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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#25 metye7

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:22 PM

I have had multiple students inform me that their friends told them they had to spread their shots because otherwise they would fail. I have had to explain to them, that I am not that way and not to worry, I would be watching them and the target and would know if they hit or not, and did not only wait until the end to count them.



#26 BIGDEESUL

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 12:00 AM

Did the instructor take video to ensure that the 10 shot strings were all fired from the proper distances too? If an instructor is present and witnessed all the shots, it doesn't matter if they're all in the exact .355 diameter hole, or all over the place. By passing the student, the instructor certifies that all of the shots they witnessed were in the scoring area. Not that big of a deal, but not someone I'd want to train with. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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#27 Jimster

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 08:03 AM

I tried my best to make one big ragged hole! I took my CCL course before applications were being accepted so that I would be ready. Who else took their class early? By the way, check out my awesome t-shirt.
6A8491C4-4DFE-4FB1-9052-654A5033AF00-498

#28 cola490

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 09:53 AM

I tried my best to make one big ragged hole! I took my CCL course before applications were being accepted so that I would be ready. Who else took their class early? By the way, check out my awesome t-shirt. 6A8491C4-4DFE-4FB1-9052-654A5033AF00-498

I took my class and range qualification in October 2013.

My application was accepted on January 4, 2014.

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Edited by cola490, 31 January 2016 - 09:55 AM.


#29 Mr. Fife

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 10:44 AM

Back when I was teaching, I did my class over 2 days. The first 8 hours was NRA Basic Pistol, and that included a trip to the range where we practiced safety and marksmanship. We would use a blank target and practice shooting groups. We used blank targets and they were a fraction of the size of the B-27 used in the qualification test. You would aim for the center of the paper and make your first hole, than your following shots were supposed to get as near as possible to the first hole. If anyone had a problem making that first hole, I would draw a circle in the middle of the paper that was about the size of a half dollar, and hand them aim for that. That seemed to work in getting them started. The range time during my first 8 hours was to practice your marksmanship.

 

For the second 8 hours, I taught the CLIC curriculum. For the range portion of this class, I wrote the name of each student on their target and when I verified the target, I wrote PASS on it and signed my name. The student would take the target home, and I took photo proof of the students holding their target, in case there was any question about it later. I told them that I would like to see a minimum of 21 distinct holes in the target, and that I had plenty of extra targets if anyone had to reshoot. Nobody had a problem with this since everyone wanted a problem free license without any cloud hanging over their training.

 

Now, most of my students were not expert marksmen so it wasn't a problem, and the ones who could put all the bullets in one hole didn't have such large egos, and they could see the wisdom of having a target that would not need to undergo extra scrutiny. Since my job was to instruct them, I wasn't going to let anyone fail my class for failing to pass the target shooting portion, because that would mean that I failed to instruct them properly. Luckily for me, I never had a problem with any student passing on the first go around and never did need to use any of the extra targets I brought along. I attribute that to the marksmanship skills that they learned in NRA Basic Pistol.


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#30 gangrel

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:01 AM

Back when I was teaching, I did my class over 2 days. The first 8 hours was NRA Basic Pistol, and that included a trip to the range where we practiced safety and marksmanship. We would use a blank target and practice shooting groups. We used blank targets and they were a fraction of the size of the B-27 used in the qualification test. You would aim for the center of the paper and make your first hole, than your following shots were supposed to get as near as possible to the first hole. If anyone had a problem making that first hole, I would draw a circle in the middle of the paper that was about the size of a half dollar, and hand them aim for that. That seemed to work in getting them started. The range time during my first 8 hours was to practice your marksmanship.

 

For the second 8 hours, I taught the CLIC curriculum. For the range portion of this class, I wrote the name of each student on their target and when I verified the target, I wrote PASS on it and signed my name. The student would take the target home, and I took photo proof of the students holding their target, in case there was any question about it later. I told them that I would like to see a minimum of 21 distinct holes in the target, and that I had plenty of extra targets if anyone had to reshoot. Nobody had a problem with this since everyone wanted a problem free license without any cloud hanging over their training.

 

Now, most of my students were not expert marksmen so it wasn't a problem, and the ones who could put all the bullets in one hole didn't have such large egos, and they could see the wisdom of having a target that would not need to undergo extra scrutiny. Since my job was to instruct them, I wasn't going to let anyone fail my class for failing to pass the target shooting portion, because that would mean that I failed to instruct them properly. Luckily for me, I never had a problem with any student passing on the first go around and never did need to use any of the extra targets I brought along. I attribute that to the marksmanship skills that they learned in NRA Basic Pistol.

Riddle me this, Batman.  If the student only fired 30 rounds at the target, and there is a big hole in the X/10 ring, with a couple of stragglers in the 9 ring, and nothing in the 8 or 7, how much extra scrutiny does it take to conclude that the student shot 30/30 inside the scoring area of the target?


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