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#1 Tvandermyde

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 08:43 AM

So a lot of people are asking and wondering what is going on at the capitol. Why are we under such an onslaught of bills, issues and votes. And why are we losing?

There are a couple of things that are going on. First is the state of mind that we have to do something. Even if it won't really make a difference. That is leading to republicans joining on bills trying to each find the path that they can appease gun controllers in their districts and the perceived wave that is out there.

Illinois is a blue state. And political types think we are going to get blue-er. Trumps numbers are in the tank. The Governor isn't polling well either, and in general, they just don't have a lot of good news to look forward too.

So you have a number of republicans and even downstate democrats who thin they can get away with this because they don't think gun owners are that big a threat to their election.

As gun owners who believe in the right to keep and bear arms, we have two major faults; 1 is we have lives to live. We go to work, mow the yard and generally just try to make some time to get to the range every so often.

Our leaders have gun clubs to run, matches to organize, dinners to attend and a host of other things to do day in and day out. The other side doesn't worry about the next hunt this fall, the match to shoot, or anything else. They only focus on taking away our rights.

The Second thing is we believe in the Constitution. And think that elected officials will adhere to that document and belief. Let me tell you that at any given moment at the capitol, some 50% will use it for toilet paper.

One other thing that comes to mind is that we tend to be focused on facts and logic. The other side runs on emotion. And no matter what right now, facts don't seem to matter. It goes back to the but we have to do something mentality.

So during this time of we have to do something, you have republicans running scared and justifying to themselves that this bill doesn't really hurt 2A rights.

There are enough suburban republicans that are wetting their pants over this that they each pick a couple of bills to vote for as cover and they end up putting the winning margins on ALL the bad gun bills and we end up getting screwed across the board.

And at the end of the day more than one of them has told me well the democrat that would replace me would be worse. And they think that gives them an out that we will just take what they give us and be happy with it.

On the ground Bloomberg's money is making a difference with providing the resources for them to organize and have an impact, going back to our guys think that the NRA or ISRA will be there to handle anything that comes up because we've been winning for so long,that the idea of loosing on this stuff is a bit foriegn to gun owners.

Couple that with the fact that NRA has never spent a lot of cash in this state on elections. I think one of the highest years they spent maybe $30,000 in contributions. And little orange post cards are not enough to win elections these days.

Its been a rough slog this year. We've had our ups and downs. And, after over 25 years of this, I've never seen it this bad. And in some ways I feel as though I've let people down.
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#2 Kingcreek

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 08:52 AM

I appreciate all you do but some things just can't be fixed.
I don't know how long I can continue to live in this state. Or where I would move to...

#3 herrmannd

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 08:55 AM

Are there things that you would like to see us do that you think would help, or at least be an encouragement to our side?



#4 cybermgk

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 08:56 AM

Todd, you're working against big Bloomberg money, misinformation and hysteria.  Some of us see that, and understand.

 

In fact, IF, we come out of this with the least painful version of 'lethal order of protection', 72 hour wait with no AW codification and no trigger cranks and bump stocks (and the sentencing transparency, which I actually see as a good thing), in THIS climate, with the push that is behind it, and that is it, then in many ways it is a realistic win.  There are far less blue states passing Lethal Order of Protection laws, that are actually worse than the current Illinois iteration.  Anyone thinking that we were not going to get that, in this state, in this climate, is just not living in reality.  Not saying I am happy about it, but, it is what it is.

 

The Hill's we need to die on are the preemption removal and Gun Shop Licensing bills And any AWBs and similar).   


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#5 cybermgk

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 08:59 AM

NOW, where I would really like to see effort, money et al by the big groups is getting a steel wave going for November (i.e. gun owning voters, including FUDDs) as well as a red wave.  Frankly, and unfortunately, we likely need a passed gun control law (like the 72 hour wait for all guns) to use to start that steel wave. 


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#6 TomKoz

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:01 AM

Are there things that you would like to see us do that you think would help, or at least be an encouragement to our side?


Tar & Feather them ?
Stay Alert ... Stay Alive !!

#7 Tvandermyde

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:02 AM

I would like to add that Valinda and Mike have been here along with Springfield Armory ISRA and NRA so its not for a lack of trying, or particpating. I think this is going to be a bad year for us. And we may have more republicans working behind our backs like they did in the senate
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#8 cybermgk

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:11 AM

I would like to add that Valinda and Mike have been here along with Springfield Armory ISRA and NRA so its not for a lack of trying, or particpating. I think this is going to be a bad year for us. And we may have more republicans working behind our backs like they did in the senate

So what are your 'predictions' on particular bills?


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#9 BobPistol

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:10 AM

Todd, you are like the little Dutch boy holding his finger in the dike.     We appreciate your hard work.  


The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.

#10 herrmannd

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:16 AM

 

Are there things that you would like to see us do that you think would help, or at least be an encouragement to our side?


Tar & Feather them ?

 

There is a place for fantasizing. 


Edited by herrmannd, 25 May 2018 - 09:18 AM.


#11 Mr. Fife

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:20 AM

I remember when Bud used to post here before we got CCW and he moved to MO. He predicted we would get CCW, he used the phrase "the camel stuck his nose under the tent and likes what it sees". I didn't quite understand that phrase but Bud explained that it was more likely that the camel would eventually end up inside of the tent rather than pull its head out. The antis have been gaining traction and I'm afraid that they've been sticking their noses up our a** and they like what they see.
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Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?
 
 

#12 TomKoz

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:23 AM

I remember when Bud used to post here before we got CCW and he moved to MO. He predicted we would get CCW, he used the phrase "the camel stuck his nose under the tent and likes what it sees". I didn't quite understand that phrase but Bud explained that it was more likely that the camel would eventually end up inside of the tent rather than pull its head out. The antis have been gaining traction and I'm afraid that they've been sticking their noses up our a** and they like what they see.


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#13 chicagoresident

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:57 AM

First is the state of mind that we have to do something. Even if it won't really make a difference. That is leading to republicans joining on bills trying to each find the path that they can appease gun controllers in their districts and the perceived wave that is out there.

Seeing Todd and this system in action I can say without a doubt this is what we're up against.

Harmon verbally acknowledges what he wants won't make any difference other then showing his constituents that he's doing something.

What we see time and time again is they ask our side what we'd be willing to give up to show their constituents they are doing something. Then when we give something up like bump stocks they get greedy and add more.

We've moved on from compromise to power grabs. When they don't get what they want they throw everyone, even their own under the bus for not being strong enough on gun control. Which cycles back to everyone getting tougher and tougher.

There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order.


Because the gun lobby is so small, relatively speaking, I don't know that we can use the ballot box any more. It's not just Bloomberg money, they are getting money from everyone that also "wants to do something".

The battle of Nauvoo, IL didn't work out so well back then, and would be worse now so that ideas out.

That leaves us the soap box and the jury box. That seems to be the only place gun rights are being won.

Edited by chicagoresident, 25 May 2018 - 10:07 AM.


#14 speedbump

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:57 AM

These two statutes need to be included in all subsequent county sanctuary resolutions, and that ANY entity attempting to enforce unconstitutional laws that violate the civil/ Natural rights of Illinoisans will be subject to arrest for these Federal felonies. The time for half measures is over:

https://www.law.corn...ode/text/18/241

https://www.law.corn...ode/text/18/242

Edited by speedbump, 25 May 2018 - 09:57 AM.

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#15 steveTA1983

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:59 AM

Todd, I think its time for us to be as rabid and as vocally emotional as them. The lines have been drawn and sides have been chosen. One side is Gun grabbing socialist types, the other is freedom loving. As you stated, they run on emotion. Facts and logic doesnt work for the antis. Plain and simple. Thoughts???

Edited by steveTA1983, 25 May 2018 - 10:01 AM.


#16 evilbrownrifle

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:00 AM

Belatedly, because the time to do it was 5 years or so ago, a few of us in areas where we are on the bubble for local gun control have been trying to get some grass roots stuff going in the past few months. I have a marcom background and volunteer the production of content for brochures, informative proactive powerpoints, webinars and other education, etc. Unfortunately, we don't have the direct organization YET to get materials in the hands of people and organize a coordinated response, etc. We have developed some ideas on that but I'm not sure if they should be discussed openly, though that probably doesn't matter. There are also some possible outlets, maybe with the national conservative media and youtube gun channels where we can get national pressure and frankly awareness among illinois gun owners focused on the bad republican actors. IMO it might be easier to reach illinois gun owners who are not Illinois Carry or ISRA members from the outside-in at this point.


Edited by evilbrownrifle, 25 May 2018 - 10:01 AM.


#17 steveTA1983

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:03 AM

Belatedly, because the time to do it was 5 years or so ago, a few of us in areas where we are on the bubble for local gun control have been trying to get some grass roots stuff going in the past few months. I have a marcom background and volunteer the production of content for brochures, informative proactive powerpoints, webinars and other education, etc. Unfortunately, we don't have the direct organization YET to get materials in the hands of people and organize a coordinated response, etc. We have developed some ideas on that but I'm not sure if they should be discussed openly, though that probably doesn't matter. There are also some possible outlets, maybe with the national conservative media and youtube gun channels where we can get national pressure and frankly awareness among illinois gun owners focused on the bad republican actors. IMO it might be easier to reach illinois gun owners who are not Illinois Carry or ISRA members from the outside-in at this point.


Last sentence 100%. It needs to be done

#18 markthesignguy

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:07 AM

Worse than THIS reaming?

 

November should turn out to be the WORST year for Illinois Republicans TOO.

 

Teach them to FEAR us, as they contemplate the wreckage of their party.

 

LET Illinois BURN with unfettered idiotic democrats - give them enough rope to hang themselves,

 

USE the supposed "blue wave". If the margin is THAT thin - when we abandon them, well, WRECKAGE.

 

Time to spit on one's hands, hoist the black flag, and start ending POLITICAL CAREERS!!!

 

We've been making nice long enough - time to let the junkyard dog show through.


Edited by markthesignguy, 25 May 2018 - 12:34 PM.

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#19 steveTA1983

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:11 AM

Example: the moms posted this

KGnQMiv.jpg

So maybe the ISRA should reach out to groups like this.

https://ppchi.org

They are on our side in this fight. Put other politics/thoughts aside and join forces. Kill the anti-gun narrative

https://www.nraila.o...gun-rights-meet


Id be willing to reach out if needed, even though Im not a lobbyist or politician (yet lol)

Edited by steveTA1983, 25 May 2018 - 10:12 AM.


#20 Kingcreek

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:26 AM

Maybe instead of a peaceful and courteous march in Springfield, we should have loud disruptive aggressive protests in other places. Take a page from our opponents play book.

#21 steveTA1983

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:27 AM

Maybe instead of a peaceful and courteous march in Springfield, we should have loud disruptive aggressive protests in other places. Take a page from our opponents play book.


I like the way you think.....what county are you in?

#22 evilbrownrifle

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:29 AM

We need to organize with all like minded groups. Similarly we can put together a proactive pro 2nd Amendment facts and education presentation that can be used in outreach to a range of audiences - village boards, religious institutions, civic groups, etc. We also need to organize smaller gun dealers, CCW instructors, range operators etc not only to identify activists on our side in all potentially impacted communities but to identify folks who could volunteer that have useful skill sets.  Any motivated app developers out there who want to be part of the fight? etc.

 

It IS a lot of work but it can be spread around. And if we are efficient IMO we can match Bloomberg and Steyers' millions at pennies on the dollar. The most challenging (but maybe not really) would be building up the activist database. Beyond that it would then be fairly easy to organize in person or through gotomeeting some media/public speaking training and get material in their hands, etc. A lot of efficiency could come from good IT folk in our midst who could help prot over tools that would make database administration less time intensive.


Edited by evilbrownrifle, 25 May 2018 - 10:34 AM.


#23 evilbrownrifle

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:33 AM

Maybe instead of a peaceful and courteous march in Springfield, we should have loud disruptive aggressive protests in other places. Take a page from our opponents play book.

 

IMO, particularly at the local level and with nuance at the state official level (we would want to pressure them but not back them into a corner I would think, at least initially) we need to link these efforts to the partisan and progressive politics that are driving them which we can show are not really related to safety. Make it very clear and not be afraid to confront, respectfully but forcibly, the Moms and students, etc. And not be afraid to do that. I swore an oath to protect the constitution and not some ill informed persons feelz. I would have no problem with calling them on it in person at any meeting.



#24 chicagoresident

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:38 AM

Example: the moms posted thisKGnQMiv.jpg
So maybe the ISRA should reach out to groups like this.https://ppchi.org
They are on our side in this fight. Put other politics/thoughts aside and join forces. Kill the anti-gun narrative https://www.nraila.o...gun-rights-meet
Id be willing to reach out if needed, even though Im not a lobbyist or politician (yet lol)

This is where we as a gun community do a horrible job. We fail to make gun rights a bipartisan issue.

There are entire groups of fiscally conservative socially liberal and anti authority fiscally socialist people that all could be potential gun owners. But all our gun rights representation comes from the upper right quadrant of the political spectrum (ie guns for me and the government, but nobody else).

While some elected officials lean towards the lower right (Ron Paul) and lower left (Bernie Sanders pre presidential run) most don't. But you'll find most voters do. Gun rights can be an issue the left and right support the less authoritarian our elected officials are.

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Edited by chicagoresident, 25 May 2018 - 10:42 AM.


#25 tricolor

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:41 AM

 

Maybe instead of a peaceful and courteous march in Springfield, we should have loud disruptive aggressive protests in other places. Take a page from our opponents play book.

 

IMO, particularly at the local level and with nuance at the state official level (we would want to pressure them but not back them into a corner I would think, at least initially) we need to link these efforts to the partisan and progressive politics that are driving them which we can show are not really related to safety. Make it very clear and not be afraid to confront, respectfully but forcibly, the Moms and students, etc. And not be afraid to do that. I swore an oath to protect the constitution and not some ill informed persons feelz. I would have no problem with calling them on it in person at any meeting.

 

 

The difficulty with this is that we cannot rely on a sympathetic media like the antis can.  The media "overlooks" the antis disruptive actions, while you can rest assured that same media would love to label us as disruptive or worse.  Just something to think about. 


Edited by tricolor, 25 May 2018 - 10:42 AM.


#26 steveTA1983

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:41 AM

Maybe instead of a peaceful and courteous march in Springfield, we should have loud disruptive aggressive protests in other places. Take a page from our opponents play book.

 
IMO, particularly at the local level and with nuance at the state official level (we would want to pressure them but not back them into a corner I would think, at least initially) we need to link these efforts to the partisan and progressive politics that are driving them which we can show are not really related to safety. Make it very clear and not be afraid to confront, respectfully but forcibly, the Moms and students, etc. And not be afraid to do that. I swore an oath to protect the constitution and not some ill informed persons feelz. I would have no problem with calling them on it in person at any meeting.

This x100! They are using “feelz” to try and get their way. Time to call then emotional crybabies that don’t care about real solutions, only “feel good” infringements that will do NOTHING for safety. They oppose armed security and instead want therapists. They oppose CCW, when just yesterday in Oklahoma a CCW holder stopped a massacre. Personally, I think it’s time to attack them and call them (MDA and the like) and the anti-gun legislators what they really are: emotionally immature opportunists that use tragedies to further an agenda rather than caring about making kids safer at school. The blood is on their hands (regarding schools) and if they support infringing on individuals rights, they are going against the 2nd amendment of the constitution (shall not be infringed) and are committing treason whether they like it or not

#27 steveTA1983

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:43 AM

Maybe instead of a peaceful and courteous march in Springfield, we should have loud disruptive aggressive protests in other places. Take a page from our opponents play book.

 
IMO, particularly at the local level and with nuance at the state official level (we would want to pressure them but not back them into a corner I would think, at least initially) we need to link these efforts to the partisan and progressive politics that are driving them which we can show are not really related to safety. Make it very clear and not be afraid to confront, respectfully but forcibly, the Moms and students, etc. And not be afraid to do that. I swore an oath to protect the constitution and not some ill informed persons feelz. I would have no problem with calling them on it in person at any meeting.
 
The difficulty with this is that we cannot rely on a sympathetic media like the antis can.  The media "overlooks" the antis disruptive actions, while you can rest assured that same media would love to label us as disruptive or worse.  Just something to think about.

Screw the media. They’ll never be unbiased. Take them or if the equation. Record events/town halls and if they write a biased article, link it to a video on the full thing on what went down.

#28 steveTA1983

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:45 AM

Example: the moms posted thisKGnQMiv.jpg
So maybe the ISRA should reach out to groups like this.https://ppchi.org
They are on our side in this fight. Put other politics/thoughts aside and join forces. Kill the anti-gun narrative https://www.nraila.o...gun-rights-meet
Id be willing to reach out if needed, even though Im not a lobbyist or politician (yet lol)

This is where we as a gun community do a horrible job. We fail to make gun rights a bipartisan issue.
There are entire groups of fiscally conservative socially liberal and anti authority fiscally socialist people that all could be potential gun owners. But all our gun rights representation comes from the upper right quadrant of the political spectrum (ie guns for me and the government, but nobody else).
While some elected officials lean towards the lower right (Ron Paul) and lower left (Bernie Sanders pre presidential run) most don't. But you'll find most voters do. Gun rights can be an issue the left and right support the less authoritarian our elected officials are.

I agree. Gun owners need to push other differences aside in this fight. The 2nd amendment is for ALL Law abiding Americans. Want to gain more support? Reach out to everyone, even if their personal life choices and other political views are not the same.

#29 evilbrownrifle

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:48 AM

 

 

Maybe instead of a peaceful and courteous march in Springfield, we should have loud disruptive aggressive protests in other places. Take a page from our opponents play book.

 

IMO, particularly at the local level and with nuance at the state official level (we would want to pressure them but not back them into a corner I would think, at least initially) we need to link these efforts to the partisan and progressive politics that are driving them which we can show are not really related to safety. Make it very clear and not be afraid to confront, respectfully but forcibly, the Moms and students, etc. And not be afraid to do that. I swore an oath to protect the constitution and not some ill informed persons feelz. I would have no problem with calling them on it in person at any meeting.

 

 

The difficulty with this is that we cannot rely on a sympathetic media like the antis can.  The media "overlooks" the antis disruptive actions, while you can rest assured that same media would love to label us as disruptive or worse.  Just something to think about. 

 

 

We bypass the MSM in most cases. We have a non traditional conservative media up to an including local conservative talk radio to focus on. Social media as well. It's not like the moms have some huge arly. We can more than ,match the moms but IMO it's an awareness issue, as Todd touched on initially. Too many gun owners just don't know. make 10,000 more aware and get a few percent of that to become activist. And we get out there in person. Trump didn't have the media but he campaigned in person at a tremendous pace. That's also part of how Truman beat Dewey and one of the reasons I was fairly confident the polls were going to be wrong on election day.


Edited by evilbrownrifle, 25 May 2018 - 10:54 AM.


#30 steveTA1983

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:51 AM

Social media is where to hit them. It is a very effective weapon when used correctly. Just look what happened between Kurt Eichenwald and Kyle Kashuv......

Edited by steveTA1983, 25 May 2018 - 10:53 AM.





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