KarlJ Posted April 1, 2014 at 09:57 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 09:57 PM http://www.isp.state.il.us/media/pressdetails.cfm?ID=790 Illinois State Police Uncover More Complaints of Improper Firearms Training Press Release Date: April 1, 2014327 Applicants Notified of Improper Training SPRINGFIELD Illinois State Police (ISP) announced today that another firearms instructor from Bolingbrook is no longer approved to instruct Illinois Concealed Carry Curricula, and 327 applicants trained by the instructor will receive notification that their application has been denied due to improper training. Since January, ISP has investigated numerous complaints from the public alleging that firearms instructors were improperly training and /or awarding certificates to students who had not completed the required 16 hours of training required by law. The Firearms Concealed Carry Act (430 ILCS 66/75) states that firearms instructors are required to teach all applicants, who are not eligible for prior training credit, a minimum of 16 hours of curriculum approved by the Illinois State Police prior to receiving an Illinois Concealed Carry License Training Certificate. After conducting numerous interviews and reviewing records, ISP investigators have confirmed that the training was not conducted in accordance with the law, and are in the process of providing investigative findings to the Will County States Attorneys Office. The public expects firearms instructors to provide a thorough understanding and solid foundation of the curriculum and practical training that meets all qualifications of the law, said ISP Director Hiram Grau. When these instructors fall short, safety is compromised and the integrity of the training process raises concerns, he stressed. The ISP is notifying the applicants that their training is invalid and their applications will be denied. The applicants will have the opportunity to become re-trained without incurring the $150.00 application fee, and will be allowed to appeal the denial by submitting a written petition through the ISPs administrative review process. Once the Will County States Attorneys Office has reviewed the ISPs investigative findings, prosecutors will work with the ISP to determine if sanctions against the firearms instructors are appropriate. A list of more than 2700 certified firearms instructors can be found on the ISP Concealed Carry website, and any instructor who is no longer approved will be eliminated from the approved list. These investigations remain on-going and the public is encouraged to file complaints. To date, 13 firearms instructors are no longer approved to teach Illinois Concealed Carry Curricula, and 425 applicants have been notified of the invalid training. Beginning today, the ISP will be posting the names of the unapproved instructors on the Concealed Carry website under the firearms instructor section. Integrity is an important part of the Concealed Carry License process and the Illinois State Police is committed to ensuring the guidelines and criteria are met under the law. The ISP strongly urges applicants to review the rules governing the firearms training requirements, ask questions and demand credentials from the certified firearms instructor they are considering. The public can report abuses by completing the complaint form on the ISP Concealed Carry website at: http://www.isp.state.il.us/, or by calling (217) 782-7980. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:02 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:02 PM · Hidden by Molly B., April 24, 2014 at 03:50 PM - No reason given Hidden by Molly B., April 24, 2014 at 03:50 PM - No reason given dupe Link to comment
d38runner Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:03 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:03 PM More here from this article: 327 denied concealed carry licenses because of poor training http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/suburbs/bolingbrook/chi-327-denied-concealed-carry-licenses-because-of-poor-training-20140401,0,2695924.story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlJ Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:03 PM Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:03 PM I'd be very angry if I was denied because my instructor, in a later class, cut corners. If I was part of a class that cut corners I would have spoke up but what about those people who don't know? That's horrible for them. I personally don't agree with the training requirements but I do abide by the law. These guys give instructors and permit holders a bad name. Hope we don't see anymore of these reports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlJ Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:04 PM Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:04 PM · Hidden by Molly B., April 24, 2014 at 03:50 PM - No reason given Hidden by Molly B., April 24, 2014 at 03:50 PM - No reason given dupeDag nab bit, I searched and didn't find Link to comment
InterestedBystander Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:05 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:05 PM · Hidden by Molly B., April 24, 2014 at 03:50 PM - No reason given Hidden by Molly B., April 24, 2014 at 03:50 PM - No reason given dupetechnically, the other one is the dupe...assuming the server time is right! Link to comment
KarlJ Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:06 PM Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:06 PM · Hidden by Molly B., April 24, 2014 at 03:50 PM - No reason given Hidden by Molly B., April 24, 2014 at 03:50 PM - No reason given dupeDag nab bit, I searched and didn't find Never mind, I was in first Link to comment
garywilk Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:09 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:09 PM I am just happy that my instructor was an ISP instructor from Springfield. If they pull him, they will need to pull a whole lot of troupers. Besides the insurance, it was a very good class and a few stories of real live experience stories. Even if I was not getting the CCW, I would recommend it for every gun owner just for how to handle the gun. I am just wondering what the instructors did/did not do to get pulled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJR Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:10 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:10 PM I feel bad for the students. 425 students.--That brings to 13 the number of instructors who’ve had their certification revoked to teach concealed carry classes, and 425 students who had their concealed carry applications denied based on not getting enough training.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WtJen Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:10 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:10 PM One wonders. How far back in time do they go on the students who took the substandard training? All of the students the instructor ever taught? What would seem more fair to me is to pull the instructor's credentials based on actual observation by an ISP stealth student but not punish students where there is no actual knowledge of substandard training. From the reports listed on this board it seems the issue is time not subject matter being taught. How does the ISP know that the class just before the one they taught was not the full 8 or 16 hours? I suppose through that phone survey they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrich Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:17 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:17 PM The great thing here is the ISP denied the applications, but still get to keep the $150 application fee, so that is almost $68,000 -- Not to shabby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d38runner Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:24 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:24 PM The great thing here is the ISP denied the applications, but still get to keep the $150 application fee, so that is almost $68,000 -- Not to shabby. Would you expect any less? Question is: will they make the applicants pay another $150 and wait another 3 months after getting "correct" training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:25 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:25 PM dupetechnically, the other one is the dupe...assuming the server time is right! no actually the original thread was started yesterday: http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=47501&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:26 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:26 PM The great thing here is the ISP denied the applications, but still get to keep the $150 application fee, so that is almost $68,000 -- Not to shabby. Would you expect any less? Question is: will they make the applicants pay another $150 and wait another 3 months after getting "correct" training? No. the state is allowing the students to reapply (after receiving retraining) at no additional charge. But of course the students will have to pay for the retraining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Fife Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:27 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:27 PM An instructor would have to be pretty blatantly bad to get suspended for not teaching the full 16 hours. I purposely make my classes 9 hours or more per day just to avoid any doubt. I'm sure I've bored a few of my students to death and they would like to get back at me for that! But, think about this... it would have to be pretty blatant because who would want to throw their instructor under the bus and risk losing their own permit? I can think of a couple reasons... 1- The student would have had to be totally dissappointed with the training and felt they didn't learn anything2- A student was denied for other reasons and then decided that he was going to take everyone else down with him.3- A student received and then lost their right to carry a permit and wants to bring others down4- ? Anyway, now they are posting the revoked instructors for the world to see. It would be so embarrassing to be shamed like this especially if they were revoked for reasons 2 & 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RacerDave6 Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:28 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:28 PM The great thing here is the ISP denied the applications, but still get to keep the $150 application fee, so that is almost $68,000 -- Not to shabby. Would you expect any less? Question is: will they make the applicants pay another $150 and wait another 3 months after getting "correct" training? Denied students have 60 days to obtain proper training and submit a new certificate onto their original application so they won't have to pay another $150. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d38runner Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:34 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:34 PM The great thing here is the ISP denied the applications, but still get to keep the $150 application fee, so that is almost $68,000 -- Not to shabby. Would you expect any less? Question is: will they make the applicants pay another $150 and wait another 3 months after getting "correct" training? Denied students have 60 days to obtain proper training and submit a new certificate onto their original application so they won't have to pay another $150. Well, that's a relief. To have made them pay an additional $150 would have really added insult to injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Fife Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:53 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 10:53 PM Just checked the names against the curriculum list and at least 3 of these instructors submitted approved curriculums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrich Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:26 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:26 PM The great thing here is the ISP denied the applications, but still get to keep the $150 application fee, so that is almost $68,000 -- Not to shabby. Would you expect any less? Question is: will they make the applicants pay another $150 and wait another 3 months after getting "correct" training? Denied students have 60 days to obtain proper training and submit a new certificate onto their original application so they won't have to pay another $150. Correct: Per JCAR: 1231.100 (f) & (g)(f) Upon receipt of an incomplete application, the Department shall notify the FCCL applicant and advise the applicant as to what information is missing. The application shall not be deemed complete and the provisions of Section 10(e) of the Act shall not apply until the FCCL applicant provides a complete application including the requested missing information.(g) If an FCCL applicant has not provided the missing information in response to the Department's notification within 60 days after notice from the Department, the application shall be denied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrich Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:27 PM Share Posted April 1, 2014 at 11:27 PM From what it seems like we are hearing, the applicants are not being told that they are incomplete but are being denied for improper training. Instead they should be receiving a notice stating they need to redo the training and resubmit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiliconSorcerer Posted April 2, 2014 at 12:52 AM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 12:52 AM ISP press release about how many denied, how about how many applied and how many approved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrich Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:34 AM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:34 AM ^^ That's not nearly as exciting as saying that you smacked down a bunch of people for trying to game the system. Check back for the report requested next month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylok Posted April 2, 2014 at 02:02 AM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 02:02 AM I have self audited, had other instructors audit me and visa versa, had Leo's observe my class and take my class and I'm still nervous that because of these pencil whipping instructors it's going to cause ISP to knit pick the rest of us who are trying to do and go beyond the call of duty. Was that a run in sentence? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiliconSorcerer Posted April 2, 2014 at 10:09 AM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 10:09 AM I don't know how people do text from the paper but this is the best I could do in the tribune... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kirsey Posted April 2, 2014 at 12:55 PM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 12:55 PM Lucky me. Just so happens I am one of the students that were "bent over" by this sob. So now I guess I'll have to pony up for training yet again, wait another three months, and be the obedient subject of the state that jumps through hoop after hoop to get the privelege to protect me and my loved ones. Oh we'll at least I don't have to pay the application fee again. For you more seasoned members I feel like Schleprock from the Flintstones cartoon years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiliconSorcerer Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:06 PM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:06 PM Lucky me. Just so happens I am one of the students that were "bent over" by this sob. So now I guess I'll have to pony up for training yet again, wait another three months, and be the obedient subject of the state that jumps through hoop after hoop to get the privelege to protect me and my loved ones. Oh we'll at least I don't have to pay the application fee again. For you more seasoned members I feel like Schleprock from the Flintstones cartoon years ago.That really sucks but I believe there are a couple of trainers on the site that have offered to help out with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJim Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:21 PM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:21 PM No. the state is allowing the students to reapply (after receiving retraining) at no additional charge. But of course the students will have to pay for the retraining. Unless the instructor would like a class action lawsuit I would think the instructor would be mailing checks or crediting credit cards real fast for the cost of the class to the students he screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylok Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:49 PM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:49 PM If this happens in my area to anyone here ill run you for 1/2 price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly B. Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:57 PM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 01:57 PM The great thing here is the ISP denied the applications, but still get to keep the $150 application fee, so that is almost $68,000 -- Not to shabby.If applicants retrain and submit an appeal with new certificate within the 60 day appeal window, their fee will be honored. ISP may grant more time, discussion going on about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGDEESUL Posted April 2, 2014 at 02:05 PM Share Posted April 2, 2014 at 02:05 PM I've mentioned on Facebook, on other threads and pm's, anybody that got screwed over by those morons can attend one of my classes for cost. I'll make sure you get properly trained and certified. Wash your hands after using the facilitlies. You dont want to get pink eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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