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Suicide, access to mental health treatment and those who hate 2A


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#1 TRJ

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:01 AM

So we were bitching about how it sucks that people who need treatment are afraid they will lise their 2A rights if they seek treatment.

Carry on...

#2 vern

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 09:46 AM

Yes and that is a real shame!

#3 brianj - now in Kansas

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 12:23 PM

I was worried enough about it that I pinged Molly about it 3 or so years ago.  My wife's father (I was closer to him than my natural father) and my mother both died (one of an accident, the other of a massive heart attack) within 2 months of each other.  My wife and I felt the need to get some grief counseling, and I was worried that some mental health professional would completely misunderstand things, diagnose me with depression and get my FOID and CCL yanked.

 

That didn't end out happening, but I remained very concerned about it for quite some time.

 

Bri


"Your father's 1911..  Not as random or clumsy as a Glock.  A more elegant weapon for a more civilized age." -- Obi Wan Kenobi


#4 DD123

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 12:59 PM

It's really a double edged sword.  

 

On the one hand, there are 20K people per year who end their lives with a firearm they legally possess.  On the other hand, if one were to tell a mental health practitioner that they're depressed and share that suicidal ideation is something on their minds, then if that doctor warns someone and guns are taken, then we all get up in arms about that.  

 

There has to be a happy medium here otherwise we'll just keep going down this same road.  

 

If someone is merely depressed, then depending on the level of severity, and whether or not suicidal ideation is present, if it's just mild depression, you shouldn't have to worry about "what if the doctor has my guns taken away".  

 

One of the things that many people don't know is that people who are severely depressed who then get treated with one of the various drugs on the market, is that they typically take a couple of weeks to take hold in your system.  During this time, these folks experience increased levels of energy and motivation and then wind up committing suicide.  The reason they didn't do it before is that they didn't have the energy or motivation to actually carry through on it, and now they have a drug in their system that's giving them energy and motivation.  It's a well known problem in that area of healthcare.  

 

This is why I hate that mental institutions have all but disappeared.  Most of these folks should be able to be kept as inpatients until the drug takes effect and stabilizes their mood, and only then should they be released.  I believe if they were to do this, that would impact the above problem tremendously.  

 

It's definitely a tricky problem because with what I've described above, I can see why a doc would make sure that there were no guns in the house.  There just needs to be an easy mechanism to get them back once you are stabilized.  I would rather my guns go to someone I know rather than being taken though, that much I can tell you.  

 

I've known quite a few people who suffered and continue to suffer from depression.  For some treating it was fairly straightforward and they just sat down one day and really contemplated their lives when they were happy, and assessed what changes took place to get them to arrive at where they are.  If it was something out of their control, then they begin to rebuild that lifestyle and stop blaming themselves for something that they couldn't control.  Others needed meds, and for the most part they seemed to have helped.  I've been fortunate in that I've not had to personally deal with mental health problems in myself, but I attribute that more to keeping myself busy to avoid boredom than anything else.  

 

As easy solution to this problem would be to allow folks to have an option to where their firearms are kept, and have an easy way for them to be taken back once their stabilized.  In all honesty, if I were a psychiatrist and a patient who owns guns came in and said that they were severely depressed, thought of suicide, and my treatment plan required meds that have shown that incidence of suicide is greater than average until the meds saturate the body, I may have their guns temporarily taken too as a precaution, but as soon as those meds have taken effect, and they seem to be in a better place, I'd do everything possible to get them their guns back.  If someone is under my care, and they kill themselves in a way that I could've easily prevented, then I've failed, and I don't like failing, especially another person.  


Force and intimidation are the tools of tyrants.  - Ron Paul

 

If Democrats quit shooting people, "gun violence" would go down by 80%.......

 

Taxation is theft

 

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson


#5 brianj - now in Kansas

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 01:43 PM

And the problem is the lack of trust between the patient and either the provider or the government.  I expect that most folks would be willing to give up their firearms on a very temporary basis if required due to acute depression or something else, IF they had an expectation of being able to retrieve them with minimal difficulty after the crisis had passed.  Seeing some of the stories on IC of folks that have been disarmed by the government for various reasons, I doubt most of us would trust the state of Illinois to do anything more than melt down every firearm entrusted to them.

 

I've found that trust is much more important in psychological treatment than even it is while treating physical ailments.

 

Bri


"Your father's 1911..  Not as random or clumsy as a Glock.  A more elegant weapon for a more civilized age." -- Obi Wan Kenobi


#6 Hazborgufen

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 03:57 PM

It's really a double edged sword.  

 

On the one hand, there are 20K people per year who end their lives with a firearm they legally possess.  On the other hand, if one were to tell a mental health practitioner that they're depressed and share that suicidal ideation is something on their minds, then if that doctor warns someone and guns are taken, then we all get up in arms about that.  

 

There has to be a happy medium here otherwise we'll just keep going down this same road.  

 

If someone is merely depressed, then depending on the level of severity, and whether or not suicidal ideation is present, if it's just mild depression, you shouldn't have to worry about "what if the doctor has my guns taken away".  

 

One of the things that many people don't know is that people who are severely depressed who then get treated with one of the various drugs on the market, is that they typically take a couple of weeks to take hold in your system.  During this time, these folks experience increased levels of energy and motivation and then wind up committing suicide.  The reason they didn't do it before is that they didn't have the energy or motivation to actually carry through on it, and now they have a drug in their system that's giving them energy and motivation.  It's a well known problem in that area of healthcare.  

 

This is why I hate that mental institutions have all but disappeared.  Most of these folks should be able to be kept as inpatients until the drug takes effect and stabilizes their mood, and only then should they be released.  I believe if they were to do this, that would impact the above problem tremendously.  

 

It's definitely a tricky problem because with what I've described above, I can see why a doc would make sure that there were no guns in the house.  There just needs to be an easy mechanism to get them back once you are stabilized.  I would rather my guns go to someone I know rather than being taken though, that much I can tell you.  

 

I've known quite a few people who suffered and continue to suffer from depression.  For some treating it was fairly straightforward and they just sat down one day and really contemplated their lives when they were happy, and assessed what changes took place to get them to arrive at where they are.  If it was something out of their control, then they begin to rebuild that lifestyle and stop blaming themselves for something that they couldn't control.  Others needed meds, and for the most part they seemed to have helped.  I've been fortunate in that I've not had to personally deal with mental health problems in myself, but I attribute that more to keeping myself busy to avoid boredom than anything else.  

 

As easy solution to this problem would be to allow folks to have an option to where their firearms are kept, and have an easy way for them to be taken back once their stabilized.  In all honesty, if I were a psychiatrist and a patient who owns guns came in and said that they were severely depressed, thought of suicide, and my treatment plan required meds that have shown that incidence of suicide is greater than average until the meds saturate the body, I may have their guns temporarily taken too as a precaution, but as soon as those meds have taken effect, and they seem to be in a better place, I'd do everything possible to get them their guns back.  If someone is under my care, and they kill themselves in a way that I could've easily prevented, then I've failed, and I don't like failing, especially another person.  

 

In order for there to be an easy mechanism for returning guns we would need to have faith in our government and it's institutions. Sadly, that well seems to be poisoned thanks to the anti's efforts to chip away at our rights.

 

The really sad thing is that in Illinois, voluntary commitment to a mental health facility is makes you a prohibited possessor. So while in other states a person might not necessarily lose their guns if they seek help (though they might worry about it), in Illinois the law specifically requires you to lose your guns if you seek inpatient treatment. It's a real problem, though my cynicism makes me think that the anti's view it as a "solution."



#7 TriumphRider

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 06:15 AM

Does anyone really trust the Gov't to do the 'right' thing?  There is a solid history of the gov't acting against the Constitutional rights of it's citizens in regards to the Second Amendment.  Reminds me of an old saying -

 

"There are two types of people who desire to disarm citizens - Those who want to enslave us, and those who want to kill us."


The Problem is not the problem.  The Problem is your Attitude about the problem.


#8 bmyers

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 06:27 AM

I feel if you are voluntarily getting help and treatment, you shouldn't lose your gun rights. If you are forced into a treatment program then your rights (gun and voting, cause if you are to dangerous to have a firearm, you are to dangerous to vote) are suspended until successful completion of the program. Once completed all rights are restored.

 

Also, if you go into a volunteer program and leave against medical advise, then the courts could be petitioned to force you into a treatment program. Yet, you should have to go before a judge and get a chance to present your side/reason for stopping treatment before anyone can force you into the program or having a suspension of your rights.



#9 Tango7

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 01:27 PM

Does anyone really trust the Gov't to do the 'right' thing?


I don't, and I've worked at different levels of government for nearly 30 years.
You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#10 skinnyb82

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:12 PM

Way back in 1963, a 45 point list of Communist goals for America was published. Here are a few, one is directly pertinent to this discussion. "29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis." (We've been seeing this crap since the out of control Warren Court) And the two doozies.... "38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand or treat." (Hitler simply called these institutions concentration camps, Stalin had his gulags, Khmer Rouge had...mass graves, prisons such as S21 where only a handful made it out alive, and the list goes on) "39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose communist goals." (Psychiatry is dominated by flaming liberals who have no ethics, no morals if they see their actions as a means to a desirable end. Not desirable for others, just to satisfy their own desires such as disarming the populace. Example of a breach of ethics is the head shrinkers arm chair diagnosing Trump as a malignant narcissist) Put all 45 together, many have come to pass. Destroy the family, destroy our moral pillars, call any form of censorship or suppression of quasi-1A rights (such as the right to firebomb buildings because you're upset about the election) unconstitutional, and so on. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#11 DoYouFeelLucky

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:56 PM

While it is sad that the above referenced 20,000 people end their lives with a legally owned firearm, let me give you another perspective.  Years ago in central IA a good friend died in a head-on collision.  The person who suddenly crossed the centerline killed themselves and my friend.  That person was suicidal and had their guns taken away by family members.  Call me anything you want for this line of thinking, however my friend would be alive if that person had a gun and had taken their life with it, rather than taking two lives with their vehicle.  As said above, somewhere there is a happy-medium.  I just don't know where that is at?


Freedom has a cost, and a free society must always be vigilant and ready to defend themselves against those that would misuse those freedoms to harm others. You cannot legislate the protection of free people, they must turn to themselves to preserve and maintain their freedom. Copyright 2012 Niner8Zulu Consulting

#12 Raw Power

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:46 PM

Ugh, that story pains me DoYouFeelLucky. I'm sorry to hear that happened to your friend, even if it was years ago.

 

Mental health care isn't a priority in this country. I have some friends (and I'd say an ex-wife) who have some severe mental health issues, and don't have the thousands upon thousands of dollars for treatment that they need. It's certainly possible that a lot of the violence problems that we're having in Chicago may be due in part to there not being a budget and a lack of adequate mental health care here in Chicago due to that budget impasse. People literally do die over this as many of us can unfortunately illustrate.

 

Health care in this country is broken, and our mental health care is miles behind the rest of our health care. I don't see any plans by either of the major parties that gives me any hope of this being fixed any time soon.






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