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IL CCW Trainer Curriculum Questions


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#91 mjw45

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:33 AM


You don't accept anything. You teach your course, period. The student submits all their certificates equaling 16 hours of approved courses to the ISP.

If you have a prerequisite course the students must have before they take your course, that's up to you.


Exactly. You do not want to be the person deciding if a class taken by the student is valid or not. It is for ISP to decide and the student to figure out.


Unfortunately that is not how the latest emergency act reads, it looks like it has become the instructors problem, the ISP wants to do as little as possible.
Another thing we need to get fixed.

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#92 nrainstr

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 08:15 AM

Any Idea on when the Illinois Carry Cericulum will come out.

#93 wacker45acp

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:55 PM

Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8.

The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it.

My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one?


No. Just one.

So That means they can approve my instructors credentials without me sending in the approval form? If I am team teaching I realize we will have to stay within their guidelines. But there does not seem to be a place to submit any thing, so this is not about approving any thing. It is about me agreeing to teach the mandated subjects . That would make it seem that I would have to submit the form to get my credentials. Do I submit with no curriculum in hand, swearing to do right, or wait and risk not being approved? HELP!

#94 bobapunk

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:03 PM

If you did not create your own curriculum, you should not submit a request for curriculum approval. You still need to use an approved curriculum for any classes that you teach.

Edited by bobapunk, 09 September 2013 - 05:04 PM.


#95 Molly B.

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:38 PM

If you did not create your own curriculum, you should not submit a request for curriculum approval. You still need to use an approved curriculum for any classes that you teach.


Correct. If you did not create a curriculum, you DO NOT send in the approval form. The ISP hope to begin posting approved courses this week.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#96 wtr100

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:40 PM

If you did not create your own curriculum, you should not submit a request for curriculum approval. You still need to use an approved curriculum for any classes that you teach.


Correct. If you did not create a curriculum, you DO NOT send in the approval form. The ISP hope to begin posting approved courses this week.


excellent - lets hope it's a bit faster than the 6 instructors per day they're releasing

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#97 boog

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 06:51 PM

And how will we be notified if our course is approved
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#98 sirflyguy

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 06:54 PM

If you did not create your own curriculum, you should not submit a request for curriculum approval. You still need to use an approved curriculum for any classes that you teach.


Correct. If you did not create a curriculum, you DO NOT send in the approval form. The ISP hope to begin posting approved courses this week.

Then should I tell them to tear up the form? I couldn't get a definitive answer before I sent my stuff in, so i sent it in, listing Basic Pistol and CLIC.

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#99 boog

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:29 PM

If you did not create your own curriculum, you should not submit a request for curriculum approval. You still need to use an approved curriculum for any classes that you teach.


Correct. If you did not create a curriculum, you DO NOT send in the approval form. The ISP hope to begin posting approved courses this week.

Then should I tell them to tear up the form? I couldn't get a definitive answer before I sent my stuff in, so i sent it in, listing Basic Pistol and CLIC.

That's what I did too. Now what

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#100 Molly B.

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:34 PM

When the official approval of the CLIC program is announced, we will have a curriculum number. You will use that number. If you receive a curriculum number for the form you sent in, you will be able to notify the ISP that you plan to use the CLIC curriculum and the extra number issued to you can be removed from the list.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#101 sirflyguy

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:37 PM

When the official approval of the CLIC program is announced, we will have a curriculum number. You will use that number. If you receive a curriculum number for the form you sent in, you will be able to notify the ISP that you plan to use the CLIC curriculum and the extra number issued to you can be removed from the list.

You rock, girl! I was actually worried about this, but it was all so undefined, so I thought "better safe than sorry", though sometimes the whole process has left me sorry! And I assume NRA Basic Pistol (if approved, and I am assuming it will be) will have a number as well. Hey, Boog, two Marion guys messing up together. How about that?! :)

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#102 Molly B.

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:40 PM

NRA Basic Pistol will be approved and yes, it should have its own course number as well.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#103 sirflyguy

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:54 PM

NRA Basic Pistol will be approved and yes, it should have its own course number as well.

I trust you, but some of the naysayers get me spooked at times!

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

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#104 Molly B.

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:57 PM

NRA Basic Pistol will be approved and yes, it should have its own course number as well.

I trust you, but some of the naysayers get me spooked at times!


Tie yourself to the mast and do not listen to the song of the naysayers!
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#105 sirflyguy

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

NRA Basic Pistol will be approved and yes, it should have its own course number as well.

I trust you, but some of the naysayers get me spooked at times!


Tie yourself to the mast and do not listen to the song of the naysayers!

Aye, aye, cap'n! And when you are gonna be in my town, don't forget to let me know. Bennie's is calling...

Edited by sirflyguy, 10 September 2013 - 08:15 PM.

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#106 Carry Trainer

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:08 AM

Are those teaching the CLIC curriculum going through a certification process for that course? Who is taking responsibility to be sure it is being taught correctly?

It is my understanding that the CLIC course was to make use of video to teach the brunt of Section 4 if the ISP requirements, is that still ture, and if so, how does that jive with the requirement of "instructor lead" for what is arguably the most important section of the course?

Training our clients to survive an attack physically, morally, legally and financially

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#107 pdpsc

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:31 AM

Are those teaching the CLIC curriculum going through a certification process for that course? Who is taking responsibility to be sure it is being taught correctly?

It is my understanding that the CLIC course was to make use of video to teach the brunt of Section 4 if the ISP requirements, is that still ture, and if so, how does that jive with the requirement of "instructor lead" for what is arguably the most important section of the course?


A competent firearms instructor does not need to be taught how to use a curriculum. A competent firearms instructor can pick up any well-written curriculum and teach it.
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#108 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:50 AM

I wanted to reply but the coffee hadn't kicked in yet and my thoughts were a jumbled mess. pdpsc kinda summed up what I was thinking. But I want to further add that it appears the ISP is trusting the judgement of the instructors and placing the liability on the instructors to be sure the applicants of carry concealed will be properly trained. I don't think the ISP wants to get involved. At the end of the day it is the instructors responsibility to ensire that the instructor is properly following the ISP guide lines, even if that means adding some to the CLIC or not.

The CLIC for me is just a convenience of saving myself time writing a curriculum and also a way to support the people at IC who keep this site up and running etc... I mean who can't write a curriculum to meet the ISP requirements? They are afterall incredibly vague leaving lots of room for interpretation to the individual instructor.

ETA, I mean at the end of the day all an instructor has to do is make sure they meet these requirements....

All applicable State and Federal laws relating to the ownership, storage, carry, and transportation of a
fi

rearm; Minimum 4 hours Classroom

______ a. The Act in its entirety,

1) with emphasis on 430 ILCS 66/10(h) which includes instruction on the appropriate and lawful

interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed fi

rearm.

2) with emphasis on 430 ILCS 66/65 which includes instruction on prohibited areas and the parking

lot exception.

______ b. The FOID Act 430 ILCS 65/1 et. seq.

______ c. Relevant portions of the ILCS including but not limited to

1) 720 ILCS 5/7-1. Use of force in defense of a person**

2) 720 ILCS 5/7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling**

3) 720 ILCS 5/7-3. Use of force in defense of other property**

4) 720 ILCS 24/1 et. seq. Unlawful Use of Weapons**

**

Must defi

ne dwelling, aggressor, forcible felony and unlawful use of weapons pursuant to the ILCS.

5. Weapon Handling; Minimum 4 hours.

______ a. Dry fi re practice drills, handgun fundamentals

______ b. Dry fi re practice drills from concealment

______ c. Live fi re practice drills, handgun fundamentals

______ d. Live fi re qualifi cation with a concealable fi rearm consisting of minimum of 30 rounds which must

include 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds

from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Illinois State Police. (See

www.isp.state.il.us/fi

rearms/ccw/ccw-faq.cfm)

Edited by cgs, 11 September 2013 - 07:54 AM.

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#109 wtr100

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:58 AM

Are those teaching the CLIC curriculum going through a certification process for that course? Who is taking responsibility to be sure it is being taught correctly?

It is my understanding that the CLIC course was to make use of video to teach the brunt of Section 4 if the ISP requirements, is that still ture, and if so, how does that jive with the requirement of "instructor lead" for what is arguably the most important section of the course?


you mean like the NACFI? just a question who vetted you and yours? :getlost:

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#110 Carry Trainer

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:19 PM

Actually our course is being vetted by the ISP Academy as a part of being approved as an Instructor Certifying Organization. It is an extra step NACFI has always done.

Training our clients to survive an attack physically, morally, legally and financially

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#111 IAJack

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:58 PM

Are those teaching the CLIC curriculum going through a certification process for that course? Who is taking responsibility to be sure it is being taught correctly?

It is my understanding that the CLIC course was to make use of video to teach the brunt of Section 4 if the ISP requirements, is that still ture, and if so, how does that jive with the requirement of "instructor lead" for what is arguably the most important section of the course?


A competent firearms instructor does not need to be taught how to use a curriculum. A competent firearms instructor can pick up any well-written curriculum and teach it.


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#112 nrainstr

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:21 AM

Any update on the Illinois Carry Curriculum?

#113 MGF

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 04:56 PM

To my knowlege, the CLIC is approved (it comes with its own number included) and is being shipped. I'm not an Illinois Carry person other than being a supporting member here, but that's my experience. Mine's been put in a binder and all tabbed out for ease of transit while teaching.

#114 MGF

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:08 PM

Some thoughts:

1) Re experienced instructor picking up a curriculum .... yep. If it's well done, sure, it's doable. He or she likely would want to spend some time with it beforehand, but it's true. This is an 8 to 16 hour endeavor. It's not a semester.
2) Re convenience ... yep. I could have written my own, but why when you get the hardcopy, video and Power Point from CLIC? There's plenty of time or space within that curriculum to do what's needed. Heck, do a dry run at home. Or hand-select your first class to include experienced shooters, then get a critique of of the course and materials. You can make your own handouts re points of emphasis. You can even print out the Power Point slides if you choose. Says so right in the letter that comes with CLIC.
3) Re vetted ... I signed an affidavit promising I'd teach the minimums stated. So, I will teach indeed meet the minimums as updated by ISP and then some. Let's not add an extra step to the law outside of the act itself. We have the ISP for that.
4) As one instructor, I've got no problem with how NACFI wants to do its curriculum. It's theirs, and I'd guess distribution will be limited to NACFI members. But CLIC does have ISP approval. My own copy has the ISP-issued number smack dab on it.
5) Re " Who is taking responsibility to be sure it is being taught correctly?" That would be the instructors, who were vetted by ISP during the application process. Just like those using other curricula. And that would be for the state, by whichever manner it chooses to check on such matters. Surely, sir, you are not suggesting the state hire NACFI? Give some sort of exclusive or special recognition to NACFI? Or is NACFI planning to make its own product available? To non-members? At what cost? If so, I'm sure some of us would be interested.

I have no problem with NACFI. Heck, I have no experience with NACFI.
As this a public site, I suppose a representative of NACFI has every right to drop in and ask questions as anyone would.
With that said, I think questioning another organization's curriculum -- especially an organization funded solely through contributions and volunteerism -- in public on that very organization's own site might strain good taste. I'm fairly certain the IC folk would accept a PM or letter or call.
I'd humbly suggest that if NACFI is interested in recruiting members and/or truly improving instruction in Illinois, it work with the NRA and IC, not set itself up as a competitor or opponent.
But that's just my opinion, and it's worth about what you paid for it.

Edited by MGF, 14 October 2013 - 11:19 PM.


#115 stoph68

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:23 AM

Some thoughts:

1) Re experienced instructor picking up a curriculum .... yep. If it's well done, sure, it's doable. He or she likely would want to spend some time with it beforehand, but it's true. This is an 8 to 16 hour endeavor. It's not a semester.
2) Re convenience ... yep. I could have written my own, but why when you get the hardcopy, video and Power Point from CLIC? There's plenty of time or space within that curriculum to do what's needed. Heck, do a dry run at home. Or hand-select your first class to include experienced shooters, then get a critique of of the course and materials. You can make your own handouts re points of emphasis. You can even print out the Power Point slides if you choose. Says so right in the letter that comes with CLIC.
3) Re vetted ... I signed an affidavit promising I'd teach the minimums stated. So, I will teach indeed meet the minimums as updated by ISP and then some. Let's not add an extra step to the law outside of the act itself. We have the ISP for that.
4) As one instructor, I've got no problem with how NACFI wants to do its curriculum. It's theirs, and I'd guess distribution will be limited to NACFI members. But CLIC does have ISP approval. My own copy has the ISP-issued number smack dab on it.
5) Re " Who is taking responsibility to be sure it is being taught correctly?" That would be the instructors, who were vetted by ISP during the application process. Just like those using other curricula. And that would be for the state, by whichever manner it chooses to check on such matters. Surely, sir, you are not suggesting the state hire NACFI? Give some sort of exclusive or special recognition to NACFI? Or is NACFI planning to make its own product available? To non-members? At what cost? If so, I'm sure some of us would be interested.

I have no problem with NACFI. Heck, I have no experience with NACFI.
As this a public site, I suppose a representative of NACFI has every right to drop in and ask questions as anyone would.
With that said, I think questioning another organization's curriculum -- especially an organization funded solely through contributions and volunteerism -- in public on that very organization's own site might strain good taste. I'm fairly certain the IC folk would accept a PM or letter or call.
I'd humbly suggest that if NACFI is interested in recruiting members and/or truly improving instruction in Illinois, it work with the NRA and IC, not set itself up as a competitor or opponent.
But that's just my opinion, and it's worth about what you paid for it.

Well stated Mark.... I thought he sounded a bit snippy too...

#116 STR8*SHOT

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:12 PM

When the official approval of the CLIC program is announced, we will have a curriculum number. You will use that number. If you receive a curriculum number for the form you sent in, you will be able to notify the ISP that you plan to use the CLIC curriculum and the extra number issued to you can be removed from the list.


Received my course packet today - thnx for all your work. I have been reading/searching for an answer for this question but unable to find one. Yes we have a curriculum number but ISP sent an approval letter for our curriculum, NRA Basic and CLIC but sent a different number. Would this be business specific which approves both? Has anyone come across this? I feel that we will use both the CLIC specific number and the one ISP sent. Any ideas or input would be GR8!

Thnx - Jerry
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#117 bobapunk

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:27 PM

When the official approval of the CLIC program is announced, we will have a curriculum number. You will use that number. If you receive a curriculum number for the form you sent in, you will be able to notify the ISP that you plan to use the CLIC curriculum and the extra number issued to you can be removed from the list.


Received my course packet today - thnx for all your work. I have been reading/searching for an answer for this question but unable to find one. Yes we have a curriculum number but ISP sent an approval letter for our curriculum, NRA Basic and CLIC but sent a different number. Would this be business specific which approves both? Has anyone come across this? I feel that we will use both the CLIC specific number and the one ISP sent. Any ideas or input would be GR8!

Thnx - Jerry
Str8Shot Gun Safety


This is the mess that was created when dozens of instructors and instructor groups decided to submit curricula that they did not create... The muddy ISP rules did not help much either...

This is what I would do if I were in your position.

Teach NRA BP and issue the NRA cert
Teach CLIC.

On the ISP FCCL Cert, fill in the course name and number that you got with the CLIC kit. Mark the 2nd box, indicate that you verified 8 hrs of prior training and write in NRA BP (no course ID# needed)

#118 MGF

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:24 AM

I agree.
I signed the affidavit, threw down two names that I thought made sense and would satisfy ISP and put it in the mail. I wasn't sure what the heck ISP wanted, although I figured if they'd express it, I could develop it. I figured I'd use CLIC, or write my own from resources and experience, or both, as long as the content met the law and I was conveying good stuff.
In fact, I today saw two guys with incredible resumes blend CLIC and their own material, and it was awesome stuff. And they gave credit wherever credit was due.
I think CLIC almost demands you bring something to it. It is not a click and lean-back program.

Personally, I let the more senior instructors who use me figure out their curricula, and I get plugged in where I fit. So far, so good. I can teach a section, I can call a line ... happy being a worker in the fields.
I honestly don't want the whole ball of wax, and I marvel and wonder at people who go it alone. I do not think I'd enjoying teaching without a partner or partners.

#119 Drylok

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:35 PM

I just talked to an instructor who spoke with isp legal and they told him students can not combine 2 four hr classes to meet the first 8 hrs
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#120 wtr100

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:38 PM

I just talked to an instructor who spoke with isp legal and they told him students can not combine 2 four hr classes to meet the first 8 hrs


I think you might ought to pass the details to Molly B Todd V - pm or e-mail

Edited by wtr100, 07 November 2013 - 02:39 PM.

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