Expungement Does Work - An Example

[Elmer Fudd]

I realize after reading a number of posts this evening that there are alot of people that are frustrated having discovered that something they may have done a very long time ago has come back to bite them in the butt when they have gone to apply for a CCL. I thought I would add a note of encouragement and share an example of what it is possible to accomplish with patience, time, and a skilled attorney. The example I am using involves convictions for personal use felony cocaine possession, disorderly conduct, and aggravated assault. If you look at the document the time lapse between the arrest and the expungement was eighteen months. I will add that in this instance, the drug offense fell under the first time offender "drug school" provisions with TASC, and there were conditional discharges negotiated for the other two charges.

 

The point is that with the proper effort it was possible to successfully obtain an expungement and successfully get a FOID restored. It thought it would be useful to see what actual documents look like.

Expunge Sample.pdf

[Dr. Rat]

Congratulations?

[Elmer Fudd]

Congratulations?

I will consider passing that along to the person it relates to..that isn't the point. The point I am driving at is simple.....the efforts to clean up what may be in a person's past are worth the time, they can be successful.

[DomG]

I'm glad that "upstanding citizens" like your friend can get a CCL.

[BIGDEESUL]

Yeah. That's all we need is violent cokeheads carrying.

[Elmer Fudd]

I am curious how you can guess what the underlying facts of the situation are.....there are thousands of people that this could potentially impact and each of them probably has different factual situations. Some may be guilty, some may be innocent, some may have been young, and some may have been stupid. Before you interject a moral judgment into the process, ask yourself, are there some people that deserve that break?

 

My guess is that there are plenty of people in the forum including instructors that did something less than brilliant at some point in their lives. They shouldn't be condemned.

[BobPistol]

Congrats.

[cberan]

Aggravated assault and felony coke possession??? I don't think someone like that should have a gun. Aggravated was committing an assault with a weapon. What if the weapon they could of had, was a firearm? I would bet the outcome would have been a bit different.

[Elmer Fudd]

Aggravated assault and felony coke possession??? I don't think someone like that should have a gun. Aggravated was committing an assault with a weapon. What if the weapon they could of had, was a firearm? I would bet the outcome would have been a bit different.

There is a deliberate absence of facts here...aggravated assault doesn't necessarily involve a weapon...it could be misdemeanor aggravated assault, it could involve a first responder or be on the "public way" and be agg assault. Just about any PCS charge is a felony...so it may not be significant....people are focusing on the wrong aspect of this...there is nothing in the document that even states that the person was convicted...it could be as simple as an arrest...I would seriously caution about jumping to a conclusion . The point being illustrated is that expungement is possible. Rather than passing judgment on what you think you see.....consider the intent being to show that if the person, for example was wrongly arrested on all of the above, the information could be removed so that they had a fair shot to obtain a license.

[cberan]

 

Aggravated assault and felony coke possession??? I don't think someone like that should have a gun. Aggravated was committing an assault with a weapon. What if the weapon they could of had, was a firearm? I would bet the outcome would have been a bit different.

There is a deliberate absence of facts here...aggravated assault doesn't necessarily involve a weapon...it could be misdemeanor aggravated assault, it could involve a first responder or be on the "public way" and be agg assault. Just about any PCS charge is a felony...so it may not be significant....people are focusing on the wrong aspect of this...there is nothing in the document that even states that the person was convicted...it could be as simple as an arrest...I would seriously caution about jumping to a conclusion . The point being illustrated is that expungement is possible. Rather than passing judgment on what you think you see.....consider the intent being to show that if the person, for example was wrongly arrested on all of the above, the information could be removed so that they had a fair shot to obtain a license.

 

In the application, it asks for convictions, not arrests, so I don't see how this is even relevant.

[pdpsc]

 

In the application, it asks for convictions, not arrests, so I don't see how this is even relevant.

 

 

Arrests without convictions are being used for the basis for an LE objection and subsequently for a CCLRB denial. Worse than that, police interactions without even an arrest are being used as the basis for an LE objection and subsequently a CCLRB denial. So it is very relevant.

[jkdkaliman101]

I am curious how you can guess what the underlying facts of the situation are.....there are thousands of people that this could potentially impact and each of them probably has different factual situations. Some may be guilty, some may be innocent, some may have been young, and some may have been stupid. Before you interject a moral judgment into the process, ask yourself, are there some people that deserve that break?

 

My guess is that there are plenty of people in the forum including instructors that did something less than brilliant at some point in their lives. They shouldn't be condemned.

well stated and I agree. I know people like you described. Folks that at one time made some very dumb mistakes. Mostly due to immaturity. Some hanging with the wrong crowd, intoxicated and got swept up into activities through poor decision making. Some of those people grew up and matured Since those days. Some of them would make great sunday school teachers now and are 180 from their former self.

 

Obviously their are others using this forum whose greatest sin would appear to be self righteousness.

[AJR]

 

Aggravated assault and felony coke possession??? I don't think someone like that should have a gun. Aggravated was committing an assault with a weapon. What if the weapon they could of had, was a firearm? I would bet the outcome would have been a bit different.

There is a deliberate absence of facts here...aggravated assault doesn't necessarily involve a weapon...it could be misdemeanor aggravated assault, it could involve a first responder or be on the "public way" and be agg assault. Just about any PCS charge is a felony...so it may not be significant....people are focusing on the wrong aspect of this...there is nothing in the document that even states that the person was convicted...it could be as simple as an arrest...I would seriously caution about jumping to a conclusion . The point being illustrated is that expungement is possible. Rather than passing judgment on what you think you see.....consider the intent being to show that if the person, for example was wrongly arrested on all of the above, the information could be removed so that they had a fair shot to obtain a license.

 

+1

[Dr. Rat]

I am curious how you can guess what the underlying facts of the situation are.....there are thousands of people that this could potentially impact and each of them probably has different factual situations. Some may be guilty, some may be innocent, some may have been young, and some may have been stupid. Before you interject a moral judgment into the process, ask yourself, are there some people that deserve that break?

 

My guess is that there are plenty of people in the forum including instructors that did something less than brilliant at some point in their lives. They shouldn't be condemned.

 

Actually, when you do things that hurt other people unnecessarily, you should be condemned - regardless of whether you were young or stupid. And there should be a damned good reason for having a record expunged. This idea that it's normal to have screwed up enough to get arrested is nuts. I don't think I even know anyone who has ever been arrested for anything, let alone aggravated assault. "Your friend" and his skilled attorney should be proud.

[Elmer Fudd]

 

I am curious how you can guess what the underlying facts of the situation are.....there are thousands of people that this could potentially impact and each of them probably has different factual situations. Some may be guilty, some may be innocent, some may have been young, and some may have been stupid. Before you interject a moral judgment into the process, ask yourself, are there some people that deserve that break?

 

My guess is that there are plenty of people in the forum including instructors that did something less than brilliant at some point in their lives. They shouldn't be condemned.

 

Actually, when you do things that hurt other people unnecessarily, you should be condemned - regardless of whether you were young or stupid. And there should be a damned good reason for having a record expunged. This idea that it's normal to have screwed up enough to get arrested is nuts. I don't think I even know anyone who has ever been arrested for anything, let alone aggravated assault. "Your friend" and his skilled attorney should be proud.

 

Well...I would venture to guess...that if we were to limit the universe to the number of people within this forum the number of people that have been arrested would astound you. Further...keep in mind that agg. assault comes in both felony and misdemeanor versions...and having a fist fight on a public sidewalk in Illinois becomes aggravated assault...so let's not jump to a conclusion and also keep in mind that in a practice with 400 clients for years...I run into quite a number of people.

[AJR]

 

I am curious how you can guess what the underlying facts of the situation are.....there are thousands of people that this could potentially impact and each of them probably has different factual situations. Some may be guilty, some may be innocent, some may have been young, and some may have been stupid. Before you interject a moral judgment into the process, ask yourself, are there some people that deserve that break?

 

My guess is that there are plenty of people in the forum including instructors that did something less than brilliant at some point in their lives. They shouldn't be condemned.

 

Actually, when you do things that hurt other people unnecessarily, you should be condemned - regardless of whether you were young or stupid. And there should be a damned good reason for having a record expunged. This idea that it's normal to have screwed up enough to get arrested is nuts. I don't think I even know anyone who has ever been arrested for anything, let alone aggravated assault. "Your friend" and his skilled attorney should be proud.

 

In the life you live in, you do not even have to carry. Your set.

For the rest of us, this is Illinois and the facts don't matter, so this is very useful information.

[Jefferson24]

I can see both sides. 10 years removed from something done as a dumb teen, maybe. I think most everybody has done something stupid at one time or another, 90% never got caught and went on to be upstanding citizens with clear records. Maybe 5% went on to become upstanding citizens with a record. The other 5% might have just stayed on the low road.

 

I guess I believe in second chances, if they are earned. I think I would like to see a little more time between the trouble and the time one applies for a CCL.

[bob]

If you are eligible for expungement the procedure is relatively painless and it is one of the few excursions into the legal system that most people can do on their own without legal expenses. It is pretty limited but for those that qualify, it is a good thing to do.

[BIGDEESUL]

The example I am using involves convictions for personal use felony cocaine possession, disorderly conduct, and aggravated assault. If you look at the document the time lapse between the arrest and the expungement was eighteen months.

 

You mentioned in the OP that it was convictions for cocaine possession and aggravated assault. Not just arrests. There's a difference.

 

So a violent cokehead gets to carry a gun now 18 months after possession and aggravated assault convictions?

 

Yet 1/5ers with clean records are still waiting for their licenses?

 

This state really is screwed up.

 

People can't have late payments from 18 months ago erased from their credit report, but a violent druggie? Yeah they deserve a fresh start. It's been 18 months, they're a completely different person. Just like pookie was an honor student that was turning his life around. BS.

[BIGDEESUL]

I've been arrested, I'm no angel. But there's a difference between being arrested and being convicted.

[Elmer Fudd]

I've been arrested, I'm no angel. But there's a difference between being arrested and being convicted.

You don't have to like the result..if the person follows the rules and achieves the result they are entitled to it...its permitted by the system we are all a part of. If you don't like it go and change the system but, you don't get to be god. Further, you are wrong....people get 18 month late payments erased off of credit reports ALL THE TIME. The reality in my profession is that if someone hires me to represent them dealing with IRS on a tax related matter I will bet they wind up with a better result then you get dealing with it by your self. Its done legally and within the system and thats the reality of how it works. Tell me where it says that a person isn't entitled to the best representation available.

[BIGDEESUL]

The system is ****** if a convicted violent cokehead can carry.

 

That's all I'm saying.

[AJR]

It sounds like those complaining are a danger to themselves or others. They seem so violent. I have never seen so much hate.

Oh, that's right, the anti's also hate without knowing the facts or caring about the truth. It's about feelings.

[Elmer Fudd]

The system is ****** if a convicted violent cokehead can carry. That's all I'm saying.

Given the fact that you don't know the specific facts of the underlying situation that's a pretty broad statement to make. Let's see if I can put it in another context...I have been able to take clients that have received bills from IRS for as an example $200,000 and obtain a settlement at for example $30,000...and the person ends up paying substantially less than they originally owed. Will everyone else get the same deal maybe or maybe not...fair or not that is the way our system works. However, the person has NOT done anything illegal, hasn't gone outside the system, hasn't bribed anyone, hasn't lied, cheated or done anything other than seek the best assistance they can obtain. Our adversarial system depends on aggressive advocacy on behalf of those that need it...that is what balances the powers of government.

[Jwg43]

I have been both a prosecutor and a defense attorney for going on 25 years now, as well as handling a number of expungements and Governor's clemency petitions. There's an old saying in the law that no one likes an attorney until they really need one. This is much the same. It is easy to condemn someone for "gaming the system" until you find yourself in a situation where you might lose substantial civil rights based upon either questionable conduct or overly-enthusiastic law enforcement. It's amazing how quickly the critics become interested in ways to avoid or ameliorate the damage when they find themselves in that situation. The ostensible point of criminal law is rehabilitation, not solely punishment. If someone is able to prove sufficient rehabilitation to merit an expungement or pardon under the law, who are we to judge?

[Dr. Rat]

 

The system is ****** if a convicted violent cokehead can carry. That's all I'm saying.

Given the fact that you don't know the specific facts of the underlying situation that's a pretty broad statement to make. Let's see if I can put it in another context...I have been able to take clients that have received bills from IRS for as an example $200,000 and obtain a settlement at for example $30,000...and the person ends up paying substantially less than they originally owed. Will everyone else get the same deal maybe or maybe not...fair or not that is the way our system works. However, the person has NOT done anything illegal, hasn't gone outside the system, hasn't bribed anyone, hasn't lied, cheated or done anything other than seek the best assistance they can obtain. Our adversarial system depends on aggressive advocacy on behalf of those that need it...that is what balances the powers of government.

 

 

You're missing his point. A system that allows this is broken and needs to be fixed. There will always be amoral individuals willing to twist the law to defend criminals without concerning themselves with justice. We need to continue to fine-tune the system to make that as difficult as possible.

[AJR]

$ We need to take those dangerous guns off the street. I mean those dangerous people. $

 

Let me give you another real instance.

Someone is arrested and accused of murder for shooting someone, then is told based on the facts, all they have is excessive use of force and convict him. He takes the attorneys word for it, since he is not one, and serves his time. This was about 19 years ago. He applied for his FOID three years ago and was denied.

[Elmer Fudd]

I wouldn't expect to have to do this but, I find myself compelled to. I have spent thirty plus years in tax practice...simply put providing individual and business clients with the benefit of my professional education and experience for one purpose...to help them obtain the best possible result that is legally available in an ethical and responsible way under the system as it operates. Our system of government is viable because it is possible for an individual to have zealous representation to challenge the government...be it Federal or local and its interpretation of laws, regulations and judicature for the benefit of that individual. The government passes laws...people challenge laws that they don't think are fair...[think of Otis McDonald and Mary Shepard]...thankfully, every so often those people prevail in our court system and existing laws are changed. There shouldn't be a single person among us that doesn't understand and appreciate that process....its one of the underlying principles that makes our system of government work.

 

The current climate that iSP is operating in isn't perfect.....if anyone isn't familiar with my own situation, I encourage you to search it. I can't think of too many people that have been screwed by existing rules and the way that ISP has chosen to apply them. Do I like it...no not at all. However, I accept that I need to address it and deal with it....there is a great expression that says...there may be a better deal out there, but this is the best one that you are going to get. I originally posted this thread, with the same intention that I have applied to numerous other posts that I have made here....the goal being to share the experience and knowledge I have been privy to in travels in the hope that it will benefit someone else that may not have been as fortunate. How often has any one of us had a rough idea of how something worked, and then through a post or a PM with someone who we may never have me had a lightbulb go on when we understood something.

 

The reality of our system of justice is that at points it isn't entirely fair. Those that are affluent have the ability to often achieve a more favorable result than those that aren't. I am not for one second denying that the difference exists. However, what I am seeking to point out in very clear terms is that through the efforts of Illinois Carry, NRA, ISRA, people like Todd and Valinda....each individual in this community, that probably wouldn't have access to the resources and knowledge that this forum provides is enabled AJR's link to the LegalAid "do it yourself" tools for doing expungements and sealing records was brilliant...it gives everyone that is willing to make the effort a series of tools to start the process of cleaning up their own affairs so that they are able to obtain the license that they are entitled to. It would be great if ISP were to get it right and make it's procedures work the way that they should..that hasn't happened yet and it may take a while. My intention in sharing the expungement example that I did was to provide a tangible example where the process was followed and it worked. My expectation was that anyone that knows someone that has been adversely impacted in this process would share the information presented here to help them achieve the proper result, not spent the time and energy HATING on someone that was able to achieve a result where they don't have sufficient facts to be able to reach a conclusion...thankfully our courts don't operate that way.

[Elmer Fudd]

I have been both a prosecutor and a defense attorney for going on 25 years now, as well as handling a number of expungements and Governor's clemency petitions. There's an old saying in the law that no one likes an attorney until they really need one. This is much the same. It is easy to condemn someone for "gaming the system" until you find yourself in a situation where you might lose substantial civil rights based upon either questionable conduct or overly-enthusiastic law enforcement. It's amazing how quickly the critics become interested in ways to avoid or ameliorate the damage when they find themselves in that situation. The ostensible point of criminal law is rehabilitation, not solely punishment. If someone is able to prove sufficient rehabilitation to merit an expungement or pardon under the law, who are we to judge?

+10...very well said...once again we are all very fortunate to have such a skilled and diverse membership within this group. I ought provide hope to anyone that is on the short end of ISP's process will invest the time and effort to get it right.

[d38runner]

 

I am curious how you can guess what the underlying facts of the situation are.....there are thousands of people that this could potentially impact and each of them probably has different factual situations. Some may be guilty, some may be innocent, some may have been young, and some may have been stupid. Before you interject a moral judgment into the process, ask yourself, are there some people that deserve that break?

 

My guess is that there are plenty of people in the forum including instructors that did something less than brilliant at some point in their lives. They shouldn't be condemned.

 

Actually, when you do things that hurt other people unnecessarily, you should be condemned - regardless of whether you were young or stupid. And there should be a damned good reason for having a record expunged. This idea that it's normal to have screwed up enough to get arrested is nuts. I don't think I even know anyone who has ever been arrested for anything, let alone aggravated assault. "Your friend" and his skilled attorney should be proud.

 

 

That is kind of naive. Reminds me of that NYC movie critic, Pauline Kael, who said after Nixon was reelected in a landslide that "how did he get reelected, no one I know voted for him." I would bet that plenty of people you know have been arrested -- they are probably just pretty quiet about it.

 

Plenty of people I know have been arrested at some point in their lives and these are not gang bangers or low lifes, these are accountants, lawyers, engineers, veterinarians, etc. There are a billion laws out there and cops have a lot of discretion in arresting people, including for the crime of "contempt of cop." I wouldn't be so quick to judge everyone who's ever been arrested without knowing their situation.

 

Also, there was a time when if you committed a "crime" it was a bad thing and you were immoral. These were the malum in se crimes, like murder, rape, kidnapping, arson, and robbery. But now we have all these malum prohibitum crimes that are only crimes because we decided to define the activity as illegal, not because the actual activity is evil. When people get arrested for these types of crimes, I give them a lot more leeway.