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People vs Aguilar


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#31 Phatty

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:06 PM

The Illinois Supreme Court will release its opinion in this case on Thursday morning (September 12).

#32 RoadyRunner

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:40 PM

Is there a website we can F5 all morning? :)

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#33 NakPPI

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:45 PM

http://www.state.il....ent_supreme.asp

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#34 RoadyRunner

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:38 PM

Thanks!

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#35 Tvandermyde

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 06:34 AM

fingers crossed
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#36 bmyers

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 06:39 AM

Wow, another interesting case. Trying to keep up with all this is almost a full time job.

#37 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:08 AM

Wow, another interesting case. Trying to keep up with all this is almost a full time job.

I think it is a full time job, for Todd.

I can tell you for sure since I found this site my productivity has really suffered. I think I need to find a way to "parental control" it from myself if only for 6 hours a day so I can get some work done.

Patiently awaiting the "opinion" from the SCOIL.

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#38 press1280

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:52 AM

It'll be real interesting if Aguilar loses. You then have the Illinois supremes splitting with CA7, and a sure appeal to SCOTUS. WHile Aguilar is not a good plaintiff, the law itself is simple in that its a total ban. Scotus may want this over a may-issue case.

#39 Netechsys

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:55 AM

Wow, another interesting case. Trying to keep up with all this is almost a full time job.

I think it is a full time job, for Todd.

I can tell you for sure since I found this site my productivity has really suffered. I think I need to find a way to "parental control" it from myself if only for 6 hours a day so I can get some work done.

Patiently awaiting the "opinion" from the SCOIL.


I could not agree more with the drop in productivity! But, that is why I have employees, right?

Now, I was looking at SCOIL, and thought it to be funny that it means, in Irish:
  • Leisure time given to learning.
  • A school; a place for learning or instruction.
  • A student body; the disciples of a teacher.
  • A sect; body of followers of a teacher or system, such as the Praetorian guard.
  • An art gallery.
Hmm.. Interesting. So, the SCOIL is a SECT. And a Sect is what again? A group of people with somewhat different religious or political beliefs from those of a larger group to which they belong. Very fitting description of SCOIL!

Sorry for my rant.. Thought it too funny..

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#40 Phatty

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:20 AM

Two big wins in the Illinois Supreme Court this morning. Update with more information to follow.

Edit with more info:

In People v. Aguilar, the Illinois Supreme Court held that there is a 2A right to carry a firearm outside the home for self-defense (essentially agreeing with the 7th Circuit's opinion in Moore) and therefore found that AUUW was unconstitutional and reversed Aguilar's conviction. However, the Illinois Supreme Court found that it is constitutional to ban minors from possessing firearms and upheld Aguilar's conviction under the minor in possession of a firearm statute.

In Coram v. The State of Illinois, the plaintiff was previously convicted of misdemeanour domestic battery, and therefore, was barred by federal law from possessing a firearm. The plaintiff sued in state court seeking to force ISP to issue him a FOID based on the argument that the federal ban was unconstitutional. The downstate judge ruled in plaintiff's favor finding that the federal ban was unconstitutional and ordering ISP to issue the plaintiff a FOID. ISP appealed and the Illinois Supreme Court affirmed the trial court's order forcing the ISP to give a FOID to the plaintiff, but the supreme court also found that it was unnecessary for the trial court to reach the constitutional question so the supreme court overruled that part of the judge's order that found the federal ban unconstitutional. The take away from this case is that a person who has been convicted of a misdemeanour domestic battery charge has the opportunity to convince a judge that they are not a danger and should be entitled to regain their right to possess a firearm. If the judge is persuaded, the judge can revest the plaintiff with the right to possess a firearm and order the ISP to issue a FOID card.

Edited by Phatty, 12 September 2013 - 08:32 AM.


#41 Federal Farmer

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:29 AM

Looks like the court has agreed with Moore that AUUW is unconstitutional, but upheld unlawful possession of a firearm by a minor charges. This isn't the win we hoped for.

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#42 Phatty

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:37 AM

Looks like the court has agreed with Moore that AUUW is unconstitutional, but upheld unlawful possession of a firearm by a minor charges. This isn't the win we hoped for.

It may not have been a 100% win, but it is still a huge victory, especially considering the venue (Illinois Supreme Court).

#43 Tvandermyde

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:45 AM

Guys these are big wins.

A state supreme court finds the right to keep and bear arms goes beyond the home. Stick. It brady, bunch, bloomberg et al

And our process for restoring rights in constitutional. And the anti gunners plan no to fund it just failed

Todd
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#44 BrowningHP

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:53 AM

sweet sweet justice


Farmer - the thing on minors isn't so bad, the ruling just says specifically that it falls outside the scope of the 2nd amendment, it could be a 14th amendment issue though maybe.

In other words, the IL law that defines what a minor is, is to be considered a separate issue from 2nd amendment rights, thus they didn't find it relevant to the limitations the 2nd amendment puts on government wrt/ right to bear arms...

Edited by BrowningHP, 12 September 2013 - 08:54 AM.


#45 twjones

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:55 AM

Guys these are big wins.

A state supreme cour finds the right to keep and bear arms goes beyond the home. Stick. It brady, bunch, bloomberg et al

And our process for restoring rights in consitutional. And the anti gunners plan no to fund it just failed

Todd

+1

#46 Davey

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:57 AM

So lets say a person convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence gets a FOID. Wouldn't he or she still be in violation of federal law? What about FFLs and the 4473 forms? Wouldn't the individual have to write down that they were convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence?

#47 Phatty

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:06 AM

So lets say a person convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence gets a FOID. Wouldn't he or she still be in violation of federal law? What about FFLs and the 4473 forms? Wouldn't the individual have to write down that they were convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence?

Under federal law, if a state has restored the civil rights of a person convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence, then that person is no longer banned by federal law from possessing firearms. So the state judge's order should be treated under federal law as a restoration of the person's civil rights, and the federal ban would no longer apply to that person.

#48 TyGuy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:12 AM

So is that 2 rulings that IL UUW is unconstitutional?
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#49 cshipley92

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:15 AM

So is that 2 rulings that IL UUW is unconstitutional?


Yes, but the court pointed out in a footnote that the UUW statue was amended by the FCCA and that neither the FCCA or the amended UUW law was at question, just the prior UUW under which the defendant was convicted.

Also, while the court ruled that the 2nd Amendment didn't apply to the defendant due to his age, he was only 17 at the time of conviction so it shouldn't effect the court case involving an 18 year old suing the state over the foid provisions of requiring a parental signature for those under 21.
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#50 ming

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:15 AM

Some discussion at TTAG:

http://www.thetrutha...me/#more-256063

and more at Volokh:

http://www.volokh.com/category/guns/

Edited by ming, 12 September 2013 - 09:41 AM.

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#51 cm.stites

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:16 AM

So is that 2 rulings that IL UUW is unconstitutional?

yes and that the 7ths decision is now the precedent in illinois courts.

#52 cshipley92

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:25 AM

So is that 2 rulings that IL UUW is unconstitutional?

yes and that the 7ths decision is now the precedent in illinois courts.


So does that mean we can start carrying today?
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#53 TyGuy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:26 AM

So is that 2 rulings that IL UUW is unconstitutional?

yes and that the 7ths decision is now the precedent in illinois courts.


So does that mean we can start carrying today?

That's what I was saying.....

Edited by TyGuy, 12 September 2013 - 09:28 AM.

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#54 NakPPI

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:45 AM

No you can't carry today. See the foot note about how the opinion doesn't address the FCCA?

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#55 Phatty

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:46 AM

So does that mean we can start carrying today?

That's what I was saying.....

And that's the million dollar question. The Illinois Supreme Court only held that the law pre-FCCA was unconstitutional. They could very well hold that the law is no longer unconstitutional after FCCA was enacted. More specifically, after FCCA was enacted but before anyone can actually get a license, is the law still unconstitutional? This is the same question that the 7th Circuit is currently considering.

#56 Tango7

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:49 AM

After reviewing these two lines of authority—the Illinois cases
holding that section 24-1.6(a)(1), (a)(3)(A) is constitutional, and the
Seventh Circuit’s decision holding that it is not—we are convinced
that the Seventh Circuit’s analysis is the correct one. As the Seventh
Circuit correctly noted, neither Heller nor McDonald expressly limits
the second amendment’s protections to the home. On the contrary,
both decisions contain language strongly suggesting if not outright
confirming that the second amendment right to keep and bear arms
extends beyond the home. Moreover, if Heller means what it says,
and “individual self-defense” is indeed “the central component” of
the second amendment right to keep and bear arms (Heller, 554 U.S.
at 599), then it would make little sense to restrict that right to the
home, as “[c]onfrontations are not limited to the home.” Moore, 702
F.3d at 935-36.

Of course, in concluding that the second amendment protects the
right to possess and use a firearm for self-defense outside the home,
we are in no way saying that such a right is unlimited or is not subject
to meaningful regulation. See infra ¶¶ 26-27. That said, we cannot
escape the reality that, in this case, we are dealing not with a
reasonable regulation but with a comprehensive ban. Again, in the
form presently before us, section 24-1.6(a)(1), (a)(3)(A) categorically
prohibits the possession and use of an operable firearm for self defense
outside the home. In other words, section 24-1.6(a)(1),
(a)(3)(A) amounts to a wholesale statutory ban on the exercise of a
personal right that is specifically named in and guaranteed by the
United States Constitution, as construed by the United States
Supreme Court. In no other context would we permit this, and we will
not permit it here either.


You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#57 cshipley92

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:52 AM

No you can't carry today. See the foot note about how the opinion doesn't address the FCCA?

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I saw that. However, since the UUW law wasn't really amended, just an exception added, and the court has ruled that the UUW law is unconstitutional (I noticed there was no stay like the 7th issued)....

:ermm: :logik: :hmm:

Using logic, how can you have an exception to a law that is no longer in existence? ie, it was struck down as unconstitutional.
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#58 NakPPI

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:57 AM

The exception - - FCCA - - means that there isn't a total ban on carrying outside the home. All this case does is give us a state law precedent that 2A exists outside the home, which is huge for future cases.

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.

#59 Phatty

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:00 AM

The exception - - FCCA - - means that there isn't a total ban on carrying outside the home. All this case does is give us a state law precedent that 2A exists outside the home, which is huge for future cases.

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It's also huge for everyone in the state that is currently being prosecuted for an AUUW charge that was pre-FCCA. They've all just been given a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Edit: It also shows why many state's attorneys that refused to prosecute anyone for UUW charges after the Moore decision came down were very wise not to waste resources on those cases.

Edited by Phatty, 12 September 2013 - 10:02 AM.


#60 NakPPI

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:02 AM

I suppose that the NRA could now file a suit arguing that the delay language in FCCA is unconstitutional in State court.

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Stung by the result of McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010), the City quickly enacted an ordinance that was too clever by half. Recognizing that a complete gun ban would no longer survive Supreme Court review, the City required all gun owners to obtain training that included one hour of live‐range instruction, and then banned all live ranges within City limits. This was not so much a nod to the importance of live‐range training as it was a thumbing of the municipal nose at the Supreme Court.




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