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Samuel v. Trame - Military Non-Resident Lawsuit


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#31 BobPistol

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 06:02 PM

"I know nothing, NOTHING"

 

I wonder where I heard that before?

 

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#32 kwc

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 09:28 PM

Today's docket entry shows the discovery hearing was held today. Status conference will be held on Jan 21, 2016.
 
Trame filed a motion for a stay on the motion for summary judgment. She needs time to investigate the plaintiff's claims of Montana legal residency, current residence in Illinois, and impact of the plaintiff's status as a member of the military as it pertains to her ability to possess and carry firearms concealed in Illinois.
 
Trame also says she needs time to investigate the plaintiff's standing to maintain a claim before the court, based in part on the above factors.

Attached Files


Edited by kwc, 23 September 2015 - 06:07 PM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#33 Teufel Hunden

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 06:01 AM

Is Trame's securement truly: "I can't say that the license shouldn't be issued, but I can't say that it should, either. So I denied it. I'm not sure what the rules are.". WTH? Unless Trame can provide definitive proof that an applicant does not qualify, shouldn't she be required to issue the license? The ISP is part of the executive branch in Illinois. It is disappointing that this type of thing is still going on with a ® in the governor's mansion.

#34 jmeyers

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 06:29 AM

damn kwc, your quick, i haven't even logged in pacer yet today



#35 kwc

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 06:37 AM

Teufel Hunden, that sounds close... but she never actually denied it since there is no mechanism for the plaintiff to even apply. It may be a stretch, but I interpret Trame's affidavit to hint (ever so subtly) she is having doubts about their own policies. The optimist in me wants to believe that, at least.

Edited by kwc, 22 September 2015 - 06:38 AM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#36 kwc

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 06:39 AM

jmeyers, pronounce "kwc" and it kinda sounds like "quick." :)
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#37 jmeyers

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Posted 22 September 2015 - 07:40 AM

touche`



#38 kwc

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 04:47 AM

Mr. Maag doesn't let any grass grow under his feet and has already filed a response to Trame's Motion to Stay the briefing and the plaintiff's motion for summary judgment. He accepts a 30-day extension for Trame to respond, but requests anything beyond that be denied.

Maag makes it clear that there is little that needs to be "discovered." Things like verifying military status and driver's license are easy to confirm. His sarcasm is entertaining:

There is a large building in Springfield, Illinois, full of people that do this for a living, and to think that it has not already been done stretches the imagination beyond the breaking point.


Simultaneously, the court established the discovery schedule timeline. Discovery is due by 4/15/2016 and Dispositive Motions are due by 5/15/2016.
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#39 Joebillybob

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 07:54 AM

Mr. Maag doesn't let any grass grow under his feet and has already filed a response to Trame's Motion to Stay the briefing and the plaintiff's motion for summary judgment. He accepts a 30-day extension for Trame to respond, but requests anything beyond that be denied.

Maag makes it clear that there is little that needs to be "discovered." Things like verifying military status and driver's license are easy to confirm. His sarcasm is entertaining:
 

There is a large building in Springfield, Illinois, full of people that do this for a living, and to think that it has not already been done stretches the imagination beyond the breaking point.


Simultaneously, the court established the discovery schedule timeline. Discovery is due by 4/15/2016 and Dispositive Motions are due by 5/15/2016.

 

Laughing out loud at lawyer sarcasm.. almost as good as my pharmacist satirical wit... almost :-)



#40 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 12:02 PM

Mr. Maag doesn't let any grass grow under his feet and has already filed a response to Trame's Motion to Stay the briefing and the plaintiff's motion for summary judgment. He accepts a 30-day extension for Trame to respond, but requests anything beyond that be denied.

Maag makes it clear that there is little that needs to be "discovered." Things like verifying military status and driver's license are easy to confirm. His sarcasm is entertaining:
 

There is a large building in Springfield, Illinois, full of people that do this for a living, and to think that it has not already been done stretches the imagination beyond the breaking point.


Simultaneously, the court established the discovery schedule timeline. Discovery is due by 4/15/2016 and Dispositive Motions are due by 5/15/2016.

 

 

Can you post a link to Maag's filing? I'd like to read that myself!


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“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
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#41 kwc

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 05:59 PM

I can't link directly to PACER... so here it is.

I just attached the defendant's Motion to Stay to post #32 above.

Attached Files


Edited by kwc, 23 September 2015 - 06:08 PM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#42 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 07:36 PM

I can't link directly to PACER... so here it is.

I just attached the defendant's Motion to Stay to post #32 above.

 

Man, the legal representation for agencies in this state have been taking such massive butt-whippings, you would think that the plaintiff's co-counsel was a dominatrix.


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 23 September 2015 - 11:07 PM.

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 


#43 kwc

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 07:38 PM

Yep, they're gettin' whooped, IMHO!

Edited by kwc, 24 September 2015 - 04:20 AM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#44 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 07:42 PM

Deleted


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 23 September 2015 - 11:07 PM.

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 


#45 kwc

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 07:51 PM

Well, that's disappointing... Just looked at the scheduling order entered by Magistrate Judge Williams. Presumptive trial date is September 2016. Yikes.

Edited by kwc, 24 September 2015 - 04:31 AM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#46 kwc

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 06:00 PM

I missed posting about the Sep 30 update. The defendant's motion to stay the summary judgment was partially granted. Defendant now has until Nov 30 to respond to the plaintiff's motion for a summary judgment.

Edited by kwc, 15 October 2015 - 06:13 PM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#47 domin8

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:09 AM

Imo, it won't really matter after Culp v Madigan. That case has a huge head start on this one.
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#48 kwc

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 04:27 AM

Since one focuses on nonresidents overall and the other specifically on military members, both cases have value. My prayer would be that the legislature, via HB4258/SB2150, or the ISP via changes to the administrative code, make Samuel v. Trame no longer necessary.
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#49 jmeyers

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 08:46 AM

kwc, 

Mine shall put some pressure on the administrative code and its guaranteed to stay in State Court :)



#50 kwc

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:29 PM

Today the State replied to Samuel's motion for Summary Judgment and filed one of their own. Looks like they borrowed heavily from their response to Culp v. Madigan.

Since Samuel v. Trame involves a military plaintiff, currently stationed in Illinois on active duty orders, I'm surprised the State doesn't realize (or at least doesn't acknowledge) they have full visibility into Samuel's criminal behavior and mental health status, since she currently lives here in Illinois. All of the whining about the expense and inability to get information on her is completely misguided when an applicant physically resides here. Any legal infractions or mental health assessments would be reported to the State as with any Illinois resident, and the State even does regular checks to validate her qualifications to maintain a FOID card.

I'm equally surprised the plaintiff's counsel hasn't pointed that out, either (unless that is his next move).

Documents are attached.


.

Edited by kwc, 30 November 2015 - 07:35 PM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#51 domin8

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:18 AM

I suspect their concern isn't about current requirements, but prior, including prior to joining the Air Force. I get where you're coming from. I'm just trying to get into Illinois head. Being able to see the argument before it's made is my favorite part of debate.

Edited by domin8, 03 December 2015 - 01:20 AM.

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#52 Gamma

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 02:15 AM

Their point is that they can't make everyone around the country report voluntary mental health treatment to them.

 

The utter failure of their argument is that the same situation also applies to Illinois residents. An Illinois resident could seek treatment in another state and presumably avoid reporting just as residents of other states do.

 

What it boils down to is they are trying to prove a negative which can't be done. They only have an illusion of success for Illinois residents.

 

The voluntary mental health prohibition is unenforceable and counterproductive.


Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#53 kwc

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 10:43 PM

Plaintiff's attorney scheduled a deposition with Jessica Trame (defendant) on Jan 7, and as a result has requested an extension of time until Jan 29 to reply to Trame's response.

Boy would I love to be a fly on the wall during that deposition. It should at least provide interesting reading material when filed with the reply (assuming it is included).


.

Edited by kwc, 21 December 2015 - 10:44 PM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#54 jmeyers

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 06:59 AM

Oh Goody.  Reading material.  



#55 jmeyers

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 08:23 AM

Isn't this nice of the State of Illinois

 

Minute Entry for proceedings held before Magistrate Judge Stephen C. Williams: Status Conference held on 1/21/2016. Tom Maag for Plaintiff. Bilal Aziz for Defendant. Defendant reports that a settlement conference would be futile in this case. Parties agree that case will be decided by outcome of motions currently being briefed. Should the case survive summary judgment, the parties are directed to contact the Court upon receipt of a ruling on the pending motions for the purpose of scheduling a status conference. (Court Reporter n/a.) (amv)THIS TEXT ENTRY IS AN ORDER OF THE COURT. NO FURTHER DOCUMENTATION WILL BE MAILED. (Entered: 01/21/2016)



#56 OldMarineVet

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 08:30 AM

Thank you, kwc



#57 kwc

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 11:06 PM

Today the plaintiff filed a response to the Defendant's Motion for a Summary Judgment and a Reply In Support of the Plaintiff's Motion for a Summary Judgment.

The response/reply and both exhibits are attached. Exhibit B is a deposition from Jessica Trame (director of the ISP's Firearm Services Bureau) and contains some intriguing statements.

Attached File  Plaintiff's Response and Reply.pdf   279.74KB   63 downloads

Attached File  Plaintiff's Response and Reply - Exhibit A.pdf   327.89KB   89 downloads

Attached File  Plaintiff's Response and Reply - Exhibit B.pdf   3.89MB   91 downloads


.

Edited by kwc, 29 January 2016 - 11:06 PM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#58 kwc

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 11:27 PM



Argh! My PDF uploads don't seem to work... no idea why.

I've temporarily uploaded these to another site:

http://morsel.info/w...e-and-Reply.pdf

http://morsel.info/w...y-Exhibit-A.pdf

http://morsel.info/w...y-Exhibit-B.pdf
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#59 Gamma

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:00 AM

 Exhibit B is a deposition from Jessica Trame (director of the ISP's Firearm Services Bureau) and contains some intriguing statements.

 

 

Indeed it does.

 

In addition, something occurred to me in reading through part of that. Is there a precedent in this circuit on requiring ID for voting? ISP has created a system that requires a state DL or ID card before being allowed to apply for a FOID or CCL.

 

There is something else that has been nagging at me for a long time. Their process for establishing the "substantially similar" states was extremely informal for something that would carry such weight. Many states did not even respond to the survey they sent out. They sent out a survey on other state's laws to licensing agencies or other police departments instead of state Attorney Generals or the like which I would think is normally how legal issues between states are addressed. Plus just the nature of sending out a survey rather than actually conducting a legal review, although that's really their whole approach to non-resident licensing, just get other states to do their work for them.


Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#60 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 06:07 PM

I especially love the way that the plaintiff's lawyer cleverly paints the parallel of Nazi-esque arms control to the defendant's behavior and actually gets her to essentially cop to it:

 

When it is pointed out to Defendant that it is equally difficult to perform background checks on residents and non-residents, Defendant invokes the so called “Nuremburg defense”.

 

A. I follow what is put forth in front of me.

Q. You’re just following orders

A. Well, if you want to simplify it, yes. 

 

Even funnier is that in the deposition Exhibit B, literally every time the state's counsel Bilal objects, Maag tells Trame that she can answer the question. It's like watching a petulant kid continually trying to butt in and being told, "Shut up, junior."


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 30 January 2016 - 06:29 PM.

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 





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