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Caliber question


Ocellairs

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Can a gun store person talk about ballistics in any less technical terms?

 

The FBI is re-adopting 9mm, but it is not because it has superior terminal ballistics to .40 S&W, it is because the terminal ballistics are close and 9mm is easier to shoot for some agents who may not have the hand, wrist and forearm strength that other agents have.

 

The 9mm generally is easier to make quicker follow-up shots than .40 S&W, but I think the best .40 S&W bullets have slightly better terminal ballistics than the best 9mm ammo - they're harder hitting, they penetrate a little more deeply and they expand to slightly greater diameter.

 

Departments who switch from .40 to 9mm are making a decision the the superior terminal ballistics of the .40 aren't worth the trade-off in increased recoil. And a 9mm semi-auto is going to hold more rounds than a .40 S&W pistol.

 

I think most law enforcement agencies that have switched have seen qualification scores for officers go up.

 

To say that "9mm is coming of age" is so vague that I'm not sure it has meaning. Most of the major improvements to bullet design have already happened, the Federal HST and the Winchester Ranger "T" Series and other top-performing rounds have been around for a while now and the .40 S&W caliber has benefited from those designs as well as the 9mm.

 

It's just my opinion, but I personally think more and more people are getting into 10mm now - I see more posts about it on forums - either asking about "the best" 10mm pistol, or "best" self-defense round for 10mm or people posting about the 10mm they picked up. And we're also seeing carbines being chambered for 10mm - I remember when there weren't any 10mm carbines.

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A gun shop owner may also be reporting based largely upon what he's selling and not selling. In Illinois I'd bet single stack 9mm guns have been selling fairly well relative to anything in .40

particularly since the carry law. In other states the sales may tell a different tale. I do agree that .40 is out of vogue now and I expect it's going to be sidelined like .357sig over the next few years. Based upon my browsing I see quite a bit of interest picking up in 10mm again.

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Yes it is so......until the next cycle when 9mm adopters get the urge to seek a 'more powerful' round for their users. Right now IS a terrific time to buy a great condition .40 cal police trade-in handgun.

 

Caliber wars are always amusing and always just 'opinions'. As the most world-wide popular, 9mm will remain the most economical center-fire caliber. And .380 will stay the smallest most popular SD caliber. 45 ACP will continue to make the largest hole in commonly carried rounds.

 

NO handgun caliber has 'stopping power', They are all simply highly portable substitutes for the rifles and shotguns that do. And that is MY opinion.

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9mm hollow point bullet technology is much better than it used to be. Now its caught up to .40S&W a little bit in terms of ballistics. .40S&W is always gonna be a superior round though.

But it has drawbacks.

 

.40S&W holds less rounds in every size of pistol, it has more recoil, its more expensive than 9mm and it beats up the guns and wears them out faster.

 

For what's considered as a small increase in stopping power over 9mm its probably not worth it to arm a large number of people with .40S&W. Especially in this day and age when most of those government entities are broke and on reduced budgets.

 

But all that stuff doesn't necessarily really mean anything to you though. You might shoot .40S&W just fine and you might not care about the cost or the increased wear and tear on the gun.

So for you the little increased stopping power of a .40S&W might be exactly what you want. But like the above poster said, all of the big three pistol calibers (9mm,.40,.45) suck at stopping people regardless. When you walk out the door with only a pistol you're already compromising. So the gun store guying steering you towards 9mm seems to be in line with what pretty much everyone else is thinking these days. You certainly can't fault him for that. But don't let him tell you what's best for you either.

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I do not think that we will see the 40 ever die out. There are too many people that use a 40 for competitive shooting to make major power factor. In limited you lose about 2-3 rounds of capacity, but have way more capacity than if you went with a 45. There are a few reasons why LE is making the switch to 9mm; recoil, hollowpoint tech has improved, and capacity. Most LE aren’t shooters so they need as many rounds as they can get. Cops today are not like they were back in the day when most were gun guys and would do a lot of practice shooting off duty.
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You also cannot make a pistol the size of the Rohrbaugh R9 chambered in .40 S&W, the 9mm can be made into pocket pistols and the 40 really cannot unless you are Señor Pantalones Gigantes.
Maybe not R9 sized, but my Kahr CM40 definitely qualifies as a pocket pistol.

 

 

ETA: I think this is the CM9, but the CM40 is only .04" wider and .05" longer, so it's a close enough comparison.

0aacabfe0dbee8000a5474acd24e98d1.jpg

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I carry a G29SF concealed, with a .40 S&W barrel conversion from KKM, for civilization-locations, and swap out for 10mm for field carry most of the time. I have a pair of 9mm conversion barrels for the same firearm, which I use for teaching and for "getting reps" behind the trigger at a less expensive cost. I actually prefer the .40, if I had to choose one round to use out of everything, because in the 29SF it is very tame, and in real tissue shooting tests I've done the same round does considerably more damage than the 9mm for the same type of round.

 

I could see carrying a G43 with a 4-round magazine extension as a backup firearm, and eventually I probably will get one, but I'd actually love to see a single stack .40 of similar design, proportionately scaled up for the .40. That way, I could use the same ammunition in both my primary EDC and BUG.

 

Single stack mini-Glock in .40 S&W, with a 6-shot magazine capacity, that I could bump up to 10 with a +4 extension, but still keep it slim and lean enough for a viable BUG (no Glock 27, thanks) . . . the Glock 44, perhaps? That would be quite nice, I think.

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Like a good porno: it's all about the penetration (and expansion, but hopefully that won't happen in porn).

 

FBI ballistic test standards have led most ammunition manufacturers to adopt their standards as industry standards. There have been a lot of advances in ammunition in the last decade, and that FBI standard has given manufacturers something to adhere to and aspire towards.

 

You don't want under penetration, but you also don't want over penetration.

 

Depending on your barrel length, you can find several 9mm self-defense rounds that penetrate just as well as .40 S&W does, and expand comparably. 9mm has the benefit of additional capacity, which matters to many folks including yours truly. If I'm not carrying 9mm, I'm carrying .45 ACP. .40S&W is a compromise that gains nothing IMHO. For that reason, I've gotten out of the caliber completely over the last few years.

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...all I have to say is I wouldn't want to shot by any of them.

 

 

 

Well said, well said.

 

 

 

It was supposed to say "I wouldn't want to BE shot by any of them" but I'm glad you got my point. If you shoot me with a .40 or 9mm I'm not going to ask you, "Hey just for my information is that a 40 caliber or a 9mm?" I'm most likely going to fall to the ground and scream "I've been SHOT!" Call me sissy but I think that's how it would go down, at that point what caliber I have been shot with is irrelevant.

YMMV

My son is a LEO in a small town in Crawford county. They switched from .40 to 9mm in the past year. Why, I don't know. He now carries a Glock 34 instead of the 22 or 23(whatever the 40 model was).

 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

 

 

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First, shot placement, then bullet choice. If you can hit a 5-7 inch steel plate with every round at 30 feet or so; odds are, regardless of caliber, you will better defend yourself than the push them out the front crowd with their Block nine. Reach out and double tap the perpetrators with a .380, 9mm, .38+P, .40 or .45 and odds are in your favor. Loud noises do not win gunfights. My humble opinion is that caliber wars is a silly game with silly prizes. There is no substitute for mass times velocity delivered with a good bullet, so .40 wins over a 9mm in math, the rest is speculation. 50 years ago when I was a wet behind the ears LEO I was dumb enough to buy into the Super Vel hype. When it didn`t deliver quits as promised I got corrected and switched to a .45, that worked out for me, and unfortunately not for the next bad guy. The best 9mm is not going to deliver the freight better than a .40; because it is math that does not lie in comparisons of handgun ammo. Like Austin said, "it's mass times velocity baby."
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For much of Law Enforcement 40 VS 9mm is $$$$$$$$$ in the purchase of ammo for carry and training . In the civilian market many new shooters and especially women find it more difficult to shoot the 40 especially weapons considered for concealed carry . Some so called experts have said the pressures of the 40 caliber beat the you know what , out of a pistol . Then there are follow up shots , capacity , weight of ammo and for most , more training to be comfortable with the more robust in every way caliber . Gun manufacturers are also looking at their sales data and the across the industry sales of the weapons , ammo and accessories . Then there are those of us that are like , well lets go all the way 10mm .

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  • 3 weeks later...

Besides caliber , I hear so many concerned about how many magazines and round capacity of the weapon . Like my best instructors said , it will be up close , fast , furious and over in a couple seconds . 1 to 3 shots . So why are you concerned with 12 , 15 or whatever high capacity magazine ? Why carry more than one extra magazine . Fancy sights ? You will point to shoot and trigger weight will not be felt even at 10 pounds . Do you get target ready faster with a small concealed carry weapon any faster than with a full or medium sized weapon ? Some do some don't . If I get off 1 to 3 shots with a .22LR weapon before you get off any with your weapon of caliber or choice , who would you rather be ? Then if I do the same with a .380 or 9mm ? What if I can control my pocket size or a tad bigger weapon with one hand from the draw / hip position tucked and canted away from me without coming to eye level , checking sights and extending my arms ? Speed and defense counts , this is not accurate target shooting for a score , for that I have a nice 5" 1911 . If someone else is armed and you have a malfunction , a pile of magazines of any caliber will mean you are shot and possibly killed so my carry weapons are quality , tested , clean and properly lubricated run with oem magazines and feedable ammo for the particular weapon .

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Besides caliber , I hear so many concerned about how many magazines and round capacity of the weapon . Like my best instructors said , it will be up close , fast , furious and over in a couple seconds . 1 to 3 shots . So why are you concerned with 12 , 15 or whatever high capacity magazine ? Why carry more than one extra magazine . Fancy sights ? You will point to shoot and trigger weight will not be felt even at 10 pounds . Do you get target ready faster with a small concealed carry weapon any faster than with a full or medium sized weapon ? Some do some don't . If I get off 1 to 3 shots with a .22LR weapon before you get off any with your weapon of caliber or choice , who would you rather be ? Then if I do the same with a .380 or 9mm ? What if I can control my pocket size or a tad bigger weapon with one hand from the draw / hip position tucked and canted away from me without coming to eye level , checking sights and extending my arms ? Speed and defense counts , this is not accurate target shooting for a score , for that I have a nice 5" 1911 . If someone else is armed and you have a malfunction , a pile of magazines of any caliber will mean you are shot and possibly killed so my carry weapons are quality , tested , clean and properly lubricated run with oem magazines and feedable ammo for the particular weapon .

Not to put too fine a point on it, but your talking about one (or a few) of many potential SD scenarios. What if there are multiple assailants. What if it's a mass shooting scenario (like a recent church.), a single assailant, but on one of many pain numbing drugs, etc. etc. etc.

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Besides caliber , I hear so many concerned about how many magazines and round capacity of the weapon . Like my best instructors said , it will be up close , fast , furious and over in a couple seconds . 1 to 3 shots . So why are you concerned with 12 , 15 or whatever high capacity magazine ? Why carry more than one extra magazine . Fancy sights ? You will point to shoot and trigger weight will not be felt even at 10 pounds . Do you get target ready faster with a small concealed carry weapon any faster than with a full or medium sized weapon ? Some do some don't . If I get off 1 to 3 shots with a .22LR weapon before you get off any with your weapon of caliber or choice , who would you rather be ? Then if I do the same with a .380 or 9mm ? What if I can control my pocket size or a tad bigger weapon with one hand from the draw / hip position tucked and canted away from me without coming to eye level , checking sights and extending my arms ? Speed and defense counts , this is not accurate target shooting for a score , for that I have a nice 5" 1911 . If someone else is armed and you have a malfunction , a pile of magazines of any caliber will mean you are shot and possibly killed so my carry weapons are quality , tested , clean and properly lubricated run with oem magazines and feedable ammo for the particular weapon .

 

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but your talking about one (or a few) of many potential SD scenarios. What if there are multiple assailants. What if it's a mass shooting scenario (like a recent church.), a single assailant, but on one of many pain numbing drugs, etc. etc. etc.

Statistically, the scenarios patriot1776 described are the great majority of SD events. Remember, 90 some odd percent of DGUs do not result in shots fired. So to patriot's point, gearing up for a terror attack or whatever may put you at a disadvantage for what is a much more likely event.

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Statistics and percentages mean exactly zero as they relate to a specific unique incident. In the extremely unlikely event that a person has to draw their firearm in self defense having more rounds available than 'needed' is not a negative and having fewer than needed is definitely not a positive. Based purely on the 'statistics' there's no real need to carry a SD firearm at all, but again, stats mean zip if that one in a zillion event happens to YOU. Common sense and the odds say I'm a dope for buying a Powerball ticket, but I still do cuz if you ain't in it, you can't win it.

 

I would suggest to carry what you can shoot well, bring along as much ammo as gives you comfort, carry as often as legal and hope to all the gods that you never have to supply data to create an 'average' statistic.

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