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#91 chicagoresident

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 08:44 PM

How much foreign money was Clinton receiving?Where are those indictments?This entire Trump and Russia nonsense is getting old.

Weaponized government, create a patchwork of laws and loopholes arbitrarily enforced when someone needs to be knocked down a peg or two.

Ask the average impeach Trump idiot to explain the alleged charge of the week. Most respond "it doesn't matter as long as it gets rid of Trump".

Since we're going by what we "feel" is corruption ask them to explain why other politicians aren't guilty of the same arbitrarily enforced laws around campaign finance and foreign influence/cash. "Duh, because they follow the laws and Trump's stupid".

The outrage isn't trying to defend Trump, it's the demand for equal treatment among all politicians. It's all our nothing. The biggest risk to our faith in democracy and the system is when we pick leaders through arbitrary legal wrangling. If he is more corrupt then other politicians let 2020 be the judge. Not the deep state.

Up to 2016 from the DNC camp we heard that lax IT practices weren't a threat to national security, foreign contributions from Oligarchs through a nonprofit with Clinton's name on it were perfectly legal, and that our election process was secure from rigging or outside influence.

This is gaslighting. I'm not for everything Trump stands for, but he has been great at wreaking the kind of havoc where normal non militant non tinfoil types are finally questioning the establishment.

Edited by chicagoresident, 29 July 2018 - 08:50 PM.


#92 Tango7

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 12:37 AM

Ask the average impeach Trump idiot to explain the alleged charge of the week. Most respond "it doesn't matter as long as it gets rid of Trump".


Much like the patchwork of P-hat wearers, socialists, communists and resisters that attended the "march for (their) lives" events weren't "children" and weren't there to protest guns, but rather Trump.
You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#93 Raw Power

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 07:14 AM

 

How much foreign money was Clinton receiving?Where are those indictments?This entire Trump and Russia nonsense is getting old.

Weaponized government, create a patchwork of laws and loopholes arbitrarily enforced when someone needs to be knocked down a peg or two.

Ask the average impeach Trump idiot to explain the alleged charge of the week. Most respond "it doesn't matter as long as it gets rid of Trump".

Since we're going by what we "feel" is corruption ask them to explain why other politicians aren't guilty of the same arbitrarily enforced laws around campaign finance and foreign influence/cash. "Duh, because they follow the laws and Trump's stupid".

The outrage isn't trying to defend Trump, it's the demand for equal treatment among all politicians. It's all our nothing. The biggest risk to our faith in democracy and the system is when we pick leaders through arbitrary legal wrangling. If he is more corrupt then other politicians let 2020 be the judge. Not the deep state.

Up to 2016 from the DNC camp we heard that lax IT practices weren't a threat to national security, foreign contributions from Oligarchs through a nonprofit with Clinton's name on it were perfectly legal, and that our election process was secure from rigging or outside influence.

This is gaslighting. I'm not for everything Trump stands for, but he has been great at wreaking the kind of havoc where normal non militant non tinfoil types are finally questioning the establishment.

 

 

 

Trump is a danger to democracy in the exact same way that the hippies were a danger to democracy... the "question everything" mantra has lead to believing nothing, and to a huge rise in wacko conspiracy theories.

 

Trump has declared journalists "enemies of the people", and has whipped up fervor and support for the plethora of verifiable lies coming out of his mouth and twitter feed. As someone once said: If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.


Edited by Raw Power, 30 July 2018 - 07:15 AM.


#94 chicagoresident

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 09:30 AM

Trump is a danger to democracy in the exact same way that the hippies were a danger to democracy... the "question everything" mantra has lead to believing nothing, and to a huge rise in wacko conspiracy theories.
 
Trump has declared journalists "enemies of the people", and has whipped up fervor and support for the plethora of verifiable lies coming out of his mouth and twitter feed. As someone once said: If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.

This is the heart of Trump derangement syndrome. Trust in government/the system needs to be an all or nothing arrangement. It has the opposite effect when it's polarized. You either question the whole system or let it go on as business as usual.

Again, going back to the Bill Clinton era idiom "it's the economy, stupid". America is mostly at peace and the economy is chugging along. Now might not be the best time to ask questions people aren't ready for the answers to.

Some aspects of Nixon leaving Bretton Woods has fostered global peace with being able to correct bad behavior with sanctions. But it also fosters global peace through global debt arrangements which is a precarious balance. The end of Obama and the beginning of Trump have really seen America flexing its muscles in the dangerous balance of global economics.

As a nonpartisan observer this is where I question Trump and its a gamble I'm not convinced will pay off. But time will tell and I can admit to being wrong.

The first shots of war or revolution are always economic. Our rising debt ceiling may have America telling our allies to pound sand in repayment. Our allies may question our sanctions (if seemingly arbitrary) and stop investing in our country and start investing in other countries. This is where the information war plays a huge factor.

The China, US, and Russia debt swapping is a danger to our economy. Russia needs credit, they have a much better debt to GDP ratio then most countries. America has become so dependent on the Chinese buying our debt we continue to devalue the debt by raising the debt ceiling. At some point China, even slightly, is going to divest a little in American debt and start extending credit to Russia.

The answer to avoiding all of this is raising taxes and cutting spending, which is why I say there are questions nobody wants to ask. The first Bush attempted this and it cost him reelection. The second Bush, inspired by Clinton's second term avoided this and it cost us the financial crisis. I'm simplifying as a lot of actors were involved, but it shows how much control government now has over the wellbeing of the economy.

Combine China's tech exports and their expansion that's raising their energy dependence with Russia's desire to expand control of energy resources and their industrial military complex dependent GDP and you can see where this is going. When 2 countries that control most of the landmass in the world are expanding their influence into the Middle East and Africa that should be sending big red flags up.

A more constructive left right dialog should be the left needs to question why we have Russian sanctions (and if yes why are we not sanctioning other threats to our security) and the right needs to question if Trump's trade (and labor market) policies are best for the US. Everyone needs to question the raising debt ceiling. This is the exact opposite of hippys. It's basic economic theory, which maybe means we should also be questioning education.

Economics is a lot easier to grasp then the subject of our messed up legal system with arbitrary laws and loopholes. Most of the evidence is present in the Trump collusion case (or whatever other laws they might claim Trump broke) but the nation's top lawmakers and enforcers can't figure out if and which laws have been broken. Yet every dirty hippy, trailer park resident, and social media pundit seems to be an expert on our legal system now.

Edited by chicagoresident, 30 July 2018 - 10:44 AM.


#95 ScottFM

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 07:40 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Trump is a danger to democracy in the exact same way that the hippies were a danger to democracy... the "question everything" mantra has lead to believing nothing, and to a huge rise in wacko conspiracy theories.

 

Trump has declared journalists "enemies of the people", and has whipped up fervor and support for the plethora of verifiable lies coming out of his mouth and twitter feed. As someone once said: If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.

 

Exactly!!! 

 

Trump has no respect for the rule of law and the US Constitution. 

 

BTW his latest rant where he says his kid did not break the law in meeting with foreign nationals to influence an election is once again not based in reality. 

 

The law:

 

52 U.S.C. § 30121 and generally, 11 CFR 110.20. In general, foreign nationals are prohibited from the following activities:

 

  • Making any contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or making any expenditureindependent expenditure, or disbursement in connection with any federal, state or local election in the United States;
  • Making any contribution or donation to any committee or organization of any national, state, district, or local political party (including donations to a party nonfederal account or office building account);
  • Making any disbursement for an electioneering communication;
  • Making any donation to a presidential inaugural committee.

 

Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to an FEC enforcement action, criminal prosecution, or both.

https://www.fec.gov/...eign-nationals/


--

Beer, it's the reason I get out of bed every afternoon!

 

 


#96 chicagoresident

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:43 AM

Trump is a danger to democracy in the exact same way that the hippies were a danger to democracy... the "question everything" mantra has lead to believing nothing, and to a huge rise in wacko conspiracy theories.
 
Trump has declared journalists "enemies of the people", and has whipped up fervor and support for the plethora of verifiable lies coming out of his mouth and twitter feed. As someone once said: If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.

Exactly!!! 
 
Trump has no respect for the rule of law and the US Constitution. 
 
BTW his latest rant where he says his kid did not break the law in meeting with foreign nationals to influence an election is once again not based in reality. 
 
The law:
 
52 U.S.C. § 30121 and generally, 11 CFR 110.20. In general, foreign nationals are prohibited from the following activities:
 
  • Making any contribution
     or donation
     of money or other thing of value, or making any expenditure
    independent expenditure
    , or disbursement
     in connection with any federal, state or local election in the United States;
  • Making any contribution or donation to any committee or organization of any national, state, district, or local political party
     (including donations to a party nonfederal account or office building account);
  • Making any disbursement for an electioneering communication
    ;
  • Making any donation to a presidential inaugural committee.
 
Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to an FEC enforcement action, criminal prosecution, or both.
https://www.fec.gov/...eign-nationals/
I'd have to dig deeper, but I believe Citizens United and the formation of superpacs gets around this. Both the Clintons and the Trump's indirectly got foreign donations so its a nothingburger.

The meeting wasn't for an exchange of money, other then FUSION GPS soliciting money for opposition research (IE the dirt on Clinton's). Fusion GPS had prepared a Dossier like the Steele Dossier (remember, the Russian was working for Fusion GPS, even though unbeknownst she was a double agent). But the Dossier the Trump team was offered was linking a Clinton donor to tax evasion, which must of been laughable given the parties present (Don Jr, Manafort, and Kirshner). Appearantly tax evasion is a bigger deal in Russia then America.

People try to simplify something that's very difficult by our complex campaign and foreign agent laws.

You must either admit bias one way or the other, or admit that both the Clintons, Trump's, and most politicians engage in highly unethical and arbitrarily illegal behavior when it comes to campaign finance and foreign influence.

Then you must accept that A. No laws were broken by Trump (doubtful), or B. The laws broken were also broken by Clinton and previous politicians.

So the 2 reasons why the investigation is dragging on is Mueller is trying to find the one law Trump broke that Clinton didn't. Or it ends up like prior Clinton investigations were a low level guy goes down, gets pardoned, people feel some sense of justice and we let 2020 decide if Trump should be president or not.

Edited by chicagoresident, 06 August 2018 - 08:47 AM.


#97 tkroenlein

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:47 AM

 

How much foreign money was Clinton receiving?Where are those indictments?This entire Trump and Russia nonsense is getting old.

Weaponized government, create a patchwork of laws and loopholes arbitrarily enforced when someone needs to be knocked down a peg or two.
Ask the average impeach Trump idiot to explain the alleged charge of the week. Most respond "it doesn't matter as long as it gets rid of Trump".
Since we're going by what we "feel" is corruption ask them to explain why other politicians aren't guilty of the same arbitrarily enforced laws around campaign finance and foreign influence/cash. "Duh, because they follow the laws and Trump's stupid".
The outrage isn't trying to defend Trump, it's the demand for equal treatment among all politicians. It's all our nothing. The biggest risk to our faith in democracy and the system is when we pick leaders through arbitrary legal wrangling. If he is more corrupt then other politicians let 2020 be the judge. Not the deep state.
Up to 2016 from the DNC camp we heard that lax IT practices weren't a threat to national security, foreign contributions from Oligarchs through a nonprofit with Clinton's name on it were perfectly legal, and that our election process was secure from rigging or outside influence.
This is gaslighting. I'm not for everything Trump stands for, but he has been great at wreaking the kind of havoc where normal non militant non tinfoil types are finally questioning the establishment.
 


 
 
Trump is a danger to democracy in the exact same way that the hippies were a danger to democracy... the "question everything" mantra has lead to believing nothing, and to a huge rise in wacko conspiracy theories.
 
Trump has declared journalists "enemies of the people", and has whipped up fervor and support for the plethora of verifiable lies coming out of his mouth and twitter feed. As someone once said: If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.


Do you have a cite for your quote?

Or are you following the model of the progressive media and using a few of his words and a few of your own to make something that sounds a bit more nefarious?

While you hate our President, you should consider the notion that most Americans agree that he is appropriately calling out media bias.

#98 chislinger

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 12:10 PM

Trump said fake news was the enemy of the people, he did not say that journalists were the enemy of the people.

As for getting information from foreign nationals being illegal that is absolute nonsense. That would directly conflict with the 1st Amendment, and when a law conducts with the Constitution the law loses. And you'd be hard pressed to find a presidential campaign in the last 50 years that didn't get information from foreign nationals.

Edited by chislinger, 08 August 2018 - 12:10 PM.

"I'm not worried about following the U.S. Constitution." - Washington County, Alabama Judge Nick Williams

#99 2smartby1/2

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 10:43 AM

Trump said fake news was the enemy of the people, he did not say that journalists were the enemy of the people.

As for getting information from foreign nationals being illegal that is absolute nonsense. That would directly conflict with the 1st Amendment, and when a law conducts with the Constitution the law loses. And you'd be hard pressed to find a presidential campaign in the last 50 years that didn't get information from foreign nationals.

 

That is parsing.   Fake news is bad.  Real news isn't.  If Trump calls everything negative about him fake news, then calls specific media fake news, there is no difference in the term "Fake News" vs "Journalists".    

 

He's being saying that garbage for a long time.  He had just gotten into office when he tweeted this gem. 

 

 

The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!

 

Edited by 2smartby1/2, 09 August 2018 - 10:44 AM.


#100 chicagoresident

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 12:21 PM

Trump said fake news was the enemy of the people, he did not say that journalists were the enemy of the people.
As for getting information from foreign nationals being illegal that is absolute nonsense. That would directly conflict with the 1st Amendment, and when a law conducts with the Constitution the law loses. And you'd be hard pressed to find a presidential campaign in the last 50 years that didn't get information from foreign nationals.

 
Fake news is bad.  Real news isn't.  If Trump calls everything negative about him fake news, then calls specific media fake news, there is no difference in the term "Fake News" vs "Journalists".    
 
He's being saying that garbage for a long time.  He had just gotten into office when he tweeted this gem. 
Since when is pushing people to use critical thinking skills and question bias "bad". I love how the left has perverted classical liberal arts teaching of discourse into straight up unquestionable propaganda in learning institutions and newsrooms across the country.

It took "Drumf", the "dumbest president ever" to reawaken critical thinking in America.

Fake news=an opinion that doesn't editorially align with your worldview.

This goes a step further in old media trying to scoop new media by playing fast and loose with the facts to bolster their editorialization. The difference is when new media gets sued or loses too much credibility they shut down and respawn elsewhere. People follow it because they get stuff right more then wrong and have the scoop first.

Old media exists based on their reputation alone, it's much more damaging when they get it wrong but they've been doing it a lot more lately.

We already know you get your "knowledge" from single sided sources that doesn't challenge your worldview, don't confirm it by bandying about "fake news". It's fine if you're not a newshead like some of us, most people aren't. But don't pretend to be the expert on the media.

Edited by chicagoresident, 09 August 2018 - 12:25 PM.


#101 tbrooks

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 01:14 PM

I am a conservative "never Trumper." I'm not a Trump fan so everything he does is stupid to me. I openly can't stand the guy and hope they keep throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks. I don't care what anyone thinks about it either. The guy is a total disaster. Even if he does something good, he spoils it by opening his fat mouth. He's a disgrace and an embarrassment to the country. Even W wasn't this big of an embarrassment. I wish we could clone Regan and bring back a real true American conservative. But hey....one can dream. Even if trump wins in 2020, if he doesn't shut his mouth, he will continue to be an embarrassment. Just my two cents which mean absolutely nothing.


Edited by tbrooks, 09 August 2018 - 01:15 PM.


#102 tkroenlein

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 01:26 PM

I am a conservative "never Trumper." I'm not a Trump fan so everything he does is stupid to me. I openly can't stand the guy and hope they keep throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks. I don't care what anyone thinks about it either. The guy is a total disaster. Even if he does something good, he spoils it by opening his fat mouth. He's a disgrace and an embarrassment to the country. Even W wasn't this big of an embarrassment. I wish we could clone Regan and bring back a real true American conservative. But hey....one can dream. Even if trump wins in 2020, if he doesn't shut his mouth, he will continue to be an embarrassment. Just my two cents which mean absolutely nothing.


If you could, on any level, accept that any other candidate in this election was more fit for the presidency than Donald Trump, you are most definitely not a conservative.

This morning, I had my 4.1% GDP along with some record low minority jobless rates, how about yourself?

#103 chicagoresident

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 01:29 PM

I am a conservative "never Trumper." I'm not a Trump fan so everything he does is stupid to me. I openly can't stand the guy and hope they keep throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks. I don't care what anyone thinks about it either. The guy is a total disaster. Even if he does something good, he spoils it by opening his fat mouth. He's a disgrace and an embarrassment to the country. Even W wasn't this big of an embarrassment. I wish we could clone Regan and bring back a real true American conservative. But hey....one can dream. Even if trump wins in 2020, if he doesn't shut his mouth, he will continue to be an embarrassment. Just my two cents which mean absolutely nothing.

Reagan was awful, he ran one of the worst and longest recessions, he started and lost a trade war at the end, he handed Bush a huge budget deficit, ramped up "the war on drugs", signed off on bills deregulating finance that saw over a bunch of mini financial crises/scandals, out of touch welfare programs, and good ol trickle down Reagonomics.

His foreign defense policy was good, but I attribute that more to who he was surrounded by then him.

He was an excellent speaker and had good speechwriters, but so did Obama.

Name one thing he did that was domestically good for America? The Space program is all I got, which also got laughed at and called "Star Wars".

#104 2smartby1/2

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 03:13 PM

Since when is pushing people to use critical thinking skills and question bias "bad". I love how the left has perverted classical liberal arts teaching of discourse into straight up unquestionable propaganda in learning institutions and newsrooms across the country.

It took "Drumf", the "dumbest president ever" to reawaken critical thinking in America.

Fake news=an opinion that doesn't editorially align with your worldview.

This goes a step further in old media trying to scoop new media by playing fast and loose with the facts to bolster their editorialization. The difference is when new media gets sued or loses too much credibility they shut down and respawn elsewhere. People follow it because they get stuff right more then wrong and have the scoop first.

Old media exists based on their reputation alone, it's much more damaging when they get it wrong but they've been doing it a lot more lately.

We already know you get your "knowledge" from single sided sources that doesn't challenge your worldview, don't confirm it by bandying about "fake news". It's fine if you're not a newshead like some of us, most people aren't. But don't pretend to be the expert on the media.

 

Is "fake news" is good????    I don't think you believe that.  I'm not sure what you replied other than to attack me. 

 

So, I will give you credit, it was an excellent attempt at strawmen arguments, coupled with a gaggle of non-sequitor statements with both direct and indirect ad-hominen attacks.  But enough....

 

 

 

 

1. Please, please, please point out where I said ANYTHING about not using critical thinking skills or questioning bias.  

2. Don't attempt to (incorrectly) define "Fake News" to/for me, then attack that definition as it if were MY position.  

3. That diatribe about old media? You have to be kidding me!  I shall define that as "ironic preemptive projection" (I will get to that later).

4. How do you type that last paragraph when you literally (correct usage and all) know nothing about me?  And by the way, you do realize that I'm not the one who first brought up "fake news"...right? 

 

 

I'm finally going to call this out because throughout the course of this thread (and others threads), you have repeatedly attempted to assign me my philosophy, my positions, my so called unidentified bias, ect.   I assume it is easier to attack me if you can pre-define me as some lefty "librul" sheep that is unsavvy enough to recognize bias and lacks any ability to think critically, while you define yourself as a bastion of fairness, knowledge, and self-awareness.   That attitude tends to permeate through many topics here.  It is a forum, so whatever....  On my motorcycle forum, guys that rode those other bikes were idiots.  On my Jeep forum, guys that drove Hummers were idiots....it happens.  

 

That leads me back to "ironic preemptive projection".    Let me point this out because it is an excellent summation of what I've just stated. 

 

 

This goes a step further in old media trying to scoop new media by playing fast and loose with the facts to bolster their editorialization. The difference is when new media gets sued or loses too much credibility they shut down and respawn elsewhere. People follow it because they get stuff right more then wrong and have the scoop first.

Old media exists based on their reputation alone, it's much more damaging when they get it wrong but they've been doing it a lot more lately.


We already know you get your "knowledge" from single sided sources that doesn't challenge your worldview, don't confirm it by bandying about "fake news". It's fine if you're not a newshead like some of us, most people aren't. But don't pretend to be the expert on the media.

Just.....wow....    "Ironic preemptive projection"  That needs to be in a textbook or something. 

 

 

Everyone thinks they are the smartest guy in the room.  We all do it, myself included....(although some clearly do it more than others)....and it is THE reason why I picked this user name...because none of us (again, myself included) are quite as smart as we think we are.   I don't pre-define you.  Please don't pre-define me and assume I'm some simpleton because I have a different viewpoint than you.  

 

 

 

 



#105 chicagoresident

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 04:33 PM

 
So, I will give you credit, it was an excellent attempt at strawmen arguments, coupled with a gaggle of non-sequitor statements with both direct and indirect ad-hominen attacks.  But enough....

All im basing my opinions on are several posts that subliminally sound copypasta'd out of the usual perveyors of heavily agenda'd editorialized news sources. In debate its important to acknowledge bias of a debator (everyone has several biases).

Not an attack, I'm guessing you're probably not far left but a pro authoritarian centrist. Possibly a Jeb or Rubio fan? But since the big ticket vote in always blue Illinois is a virtue signal you might of not voted for Trump to protest your distaste for the state of the GOP (Hilldawg, 3rd party, didn't matter). Nothing wrong with that, it's why we vote.

You're probably not in the education field so the lack of critical thinking being taught in leftist fortified educational institutions wasn't directed at you either. Just pointing out the source of poor critical thinking skills.

News is entertainment, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Not everyone is into the news where they follow a story across multiple publications, social media, etc to try to piece together the story from the bias. You probably have better things to do. I'm pointing out you're bias may come from a position of superficial cable news in the background. That wasn't meant to insult.

The debate premise is (yes its a slide thread):
I am critical of people declaring "Fake News is ruining America", I've made my argument that questioning if news is real, fake, biased and editorialized is good.

You've made the argument "fake news is bad, real news is good" as the authority on what's real news and fake news. Is that a claim you can back up? Not arguing your charecter or intelligence, only your bias. That's debate.

Edited by chicagoresident, 09 August 2018 - 04:40 PM.


#106 bmurph44

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 09:51 PM

I am a conservative "never Trumper." I'm not a Trump fan so everything he does is stupid to me. I openly can't stand the guy and hope they keep throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks. I don't care what anyone thinks about it either. The guy is a total disaster. Even if he does something good, he spoils it by opening his fat mouth. He's a disgrace and an embarrassment to the country. Even W wasn't this big of an embarrassment. I wish we could clone Regan and bring back a real true American conservative. But hey....one can dream. Even if trump wins in 2020, if he doesn't shut his mouth, he will continue to be an embarrassment. Just my two cents which mean absolutely nothing.


Well said.

#107 Raw Power

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 10:04 PM

 

I am a conservative "never Trumper." I'm not a Trump fan so everything he does is stupid to me. I openly can't stand the guy and hope they keep throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks. I don't care what anyone thinks about it either. The guy is a total disaster. Even if he does something good, he spoils it by opening his fat mouth. He's a disgrace and an embarrassment to the country. Even W wasn't this big of an embarrassment. I wish we could clone Regan and bring back a real true American conservative. But hey....one can dream. Even if trump wins in 2020, if he doesn't shut his mouth, he will continue to be an embarrassment. Just my two cents which mean absolutely nothing.


If you could, on any level, accept that any other candidate in this election was more fit for the presidency than Donald Trump, you are most definitely not a conservative.

This morning, I had my 4.1% GDP along with some record low minority jobless rates, how about yourself?

 

 

 

Just curious, were you jobless before Trump came into office? I wasn't.



#108 Raw Power

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 10:05 PM

 

 

How much foreign money was Clinton receiving?Where are those indictments?This entire Trump and Russia nonsense is getting old.

Weaponized government, create a patchwork of laws and loopholes arbitrarily enforced when someone needs to be knocked down a peg or two.
Ask the average impeach Trump idiot to explain the alleged charge of the week. Most respond "it doesn't matter as long as it gets rid of Trump".
Since we're going by what we "feel" is corruption ask them to explain why other politicians aren't guilty of the same arbitrarily enforced laws around campaign finance and foreign influence/cash. "Duh, because they follow the laws and Trump's stupid".
The outrage isn't trying to defend Trump, it's the demand for equal treatment among all politicians. It's all our nothing. The biggest risk to our faith in democracy and the system is when we pick leaders through arbitrary legal wrangling. If he is more corrupt then other politicians let 2020 be the judge. Not the deep state.
Up to 2016 from the DNC camp we heard that lax IT practices weren't a threat to national security, foreign contributions from Oligarchs through a nonprofit with Clinton's name on it were perfectly legal, and that our election process was secure from rigging or outside influence.
This is gaslighting. I'm not for everything Trump stands for, but he has been great at wreaking the kind of havoc where normal non militant non tinfoil types are finally questioning the establishment.
 


 
 
Trump is a danger to democracy in the exact same way that the hippies were a danger to democracy... the "question everything" mantra has lead to believing nothing, and to a huge rise in wacko conspiracy theories.
 
Trump has declared journalists "enemies of the people", and has whipped up fervor and support for the plethora of verifiable lies coming out of his mouth and twitter feed. As someone once said: If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.


Do you have a cite for your quote?

Or are you following the model of the progressive media and using a few of his words and a few of your own to make something that sounds a bit more nefarious?

While you hate our President, you should consider the notion that most Americans agree that he is appropriately calling out media bias.

 

 

From the horse's mouth:

18trumptweet-web-jumbo-v3.png?quality=90



#109 Smallbore

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 09:51 AM

A lot of words above.
Bottom line for me is that I like what Trump is doing. He is a far better negotiate then the so called expert career diplomats.
Trump has my support and vote.

#110 2smartby1/2

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:47 AM

 

 
So, I will give you credit, it was an excellent attempt at strawmen arguments, coupled with a gaggle of non-sequitor statements with both direct and indirect ad-hominen attacks.  But enough....

All im basing my opinions on are several posts that subliminally sound copypasta'd out of the usual perveyors of heavily agenda'd editorialized news sources. In debate its important to acknowledge bias of a debator (everyone has several biases).

Not an attack, I'm guessing you're probably not far left but a pro authoritarian centrist. Possibly a Jeb or Rubio fan? But since the big ticket vote in always blue Illinois is a virtue signal you might of not voted for Trump to protest your distaste for the state of the GOP (Hilldawg, 3rd party, didn't matter). Nothing wrong with that, it's why we vote.

You're probably not in the education field so the lack of critical thinking being taught in leftist fortified educational institutions wasn't directed at you either. Just pointing out the source of poor critical thinking skills.

News is entertainment, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Not everyone is into the news where they follow a story across multiple publications, social media, etc to try to piece together the story from the bias. You probably have better things to do. I'm pointing out you're bias may come from a position of superficial cable news in the background. That wasn't meant to insult.

The debate premise is (yes its a slide thread):
I am critical of people declaring "Fake News is ruining America", I've made my argument that questioning if news is real, fake, biased and editorialized is good.

You've made the argument "fake news is bad, real news is good" as the authority on what's real news and fake news. Is that a claim you can back up? Not arguing your charecter or intelligence, only your bias. That's debate.

 

You are still doing it. 

At this point your particular "style" has become as predictable as the sun rising. 

We have the usual ingredients:

*Blah, blah, blah, something about a cut and pasted mainstream talking points/news sources.....as a preemptive way to discount an opinion.

*Blah, blah, blah, something about said person cannot recognize their own bias...as a preemptive way to discount an opinion. 

*Blah, blah, blah, something about said person lacking critical thinking skills....as a preemptive way to discount an opinion.

*Blah, blah, blah, some non-sequitur comment thrown in.

*Blah, blah, blah, some armchair, chat room psychiatry in a wall of text, were you attempt to define said person because...you gotta be the smartest guy in the room. 

 

Throw in the usual strawman arguments, projection and deflection tactics, ad hominem attacks, and non-sequitur rants...and we have it all wrapped up.  (Example: What did your rant on leftist fortified educational institutions have to do with anything in this thread?)

 

Maybe that "style" works on other folks and on other forums.   Sorry, not me, I see right through it and I’m going to keep calling it out.

 

I still don’t know why you responded to my post, other than to argue for the sake of arguing and to attack.

You completely ignored 80% of my post, even the gigantic bolded section showing your hypocrisy….and you responded with the exact same stuff.  

 

Do you not realize that it was YOU who incorrectly defined “Fake News”, and it was YOU who gave the soliloquy on “Old Media”?

Yet it was YOU who condescendingly told me that was it “OK” if I’m not a newshead like you, but to not declare myself the expert on the media!?!?!   What the hey!!!…and when did I say I was the expert?!?!?  I gave a pretty general statement…Fake news is bad, Real news is good.   I think most people could agree with that unless you want to argue the definition of fake news.  

 

And then, you follow it up with this:

 

You've made the argument "fake news is bad, real news is good" as the authority on what's real news and fake news. Is that a claim you can back up? Not arguing your charecter or intelligence, only your bias. That's debate.

 

 


 

 

I didn’t say I was the authority on what is real news and fake news.  That is more projection from you…on multiple levels.  

 

And hey look, another “your bias” attack in that last sentence.  I didn’t see that one coming!  /sarcasm.  No, “my bias” is NOT the debate.  Another deflection attempt swatted away.

What is funny is that you seem to post as if YOU are the expert on the media, or on other’s people bias, critical thinking skills, cognitive dissonance, political traits, etc? Is that a blind spot? A lack of self-reflection?  Should I pull MORE examples from this thread alone?   

 

BTW, to answer your final question.  Here are some accepted definitions of “Fake News”.

 

Wikipedia - Definition. Fake news is a neologism often used to refer to fabricated news. This type of news, found in traditional news, social media or fake news websites, has no basis in fact, but is presented as being factually accurate.

 

Cambridge - Fake news meaning: false stories that appear to be news, spread on the internet or using other media, usually created to influence political views or as a joke:

 

Collins - false, often sensational, information disseminated under the guise of news reporting

 

Webster didn’t add it because the term “Fake News” makes no sense.  https://www.merriam-...ry-of-fake-news

 

They all share a similar trait...the information is false or not based on facts. 

 

Now, compare those definitions to what YOU posted and tried to assign to me to argue against.

 

Chicago Resident = Fake news=an opinion that doesn't editorially align with your worldview.

 

When you use the “generally accepted” definitions of Fake News in context to my initial comments, I’m once again left with…”why did you even respond to me?”  Are you saying Fake News (using the generally accepted definition) is good? That makes no sense, and I’m not going to engage with you using YOUR definition.   

 

Everything I’ve stated regarding strawman and projection are spot on.  You have repeatedly tried to assign me a flawed definition or position, which you can argue against. I’ve repeatedly called it out, and you throw in some ad hominan attacks and deflect to another red herring.   This bores me. There is nothing else to say.



#111 tkroenlein

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:26 PM

 

 
How much foreign money was Clinton receiving?Where are those indictments?This entire Trump and Russia nonsense is getting old.
Weaponized government, create a patchwork of laws and loopholes arbitrarily enforced when someone needs to be knocked down a peg or two.
Ask the average impeach Trump idiot to explain the alleged charge of the week. Most respond "it doesn't matter as long as it gets rid of Trump".
Since we're going by what we "feel" is corruption ask them to explain why other politicians aren't guilty of the same arbitrarily enforced laws around campaign finance and foreign influence/cash. "Duh, because they follow the laws and Trump's stupid".
The outrage isn't trying to defend Trump, it's the demand for equal treatment among all politicians. It's all our nothing. The biggest risk to our faith in democracy and the system is when we pick leaders through arbitrary legal wrangling. If he is more corrupt then other politicians let 2020 be the judge. Not the deep state.
Up to 2016 from the DNC camp we heard that lax IT practices weren't a threat to national security, foreign contributions from Oligarchs through a nonprofit with Clinton's name on it were perfectly legal, and that our election process was secure from rigging or outside influence.
This is gaslighting. I'm not for everything Trump stands for, but he has been great at wreaking the kind of havoc where normal non militant non tinfoil types are finally questioning the establishment.
 
 
 
Trump is a danger to democracy in the exact same way that the hippies were a danger to democracy... the "question everything" mantra has lead to believing nothing, and to a huge rise in wacko conspiracy theories.
 
Trump has declared journalists "enemies of the people", and has whipped up fervor and support for the plethora of verifiable lies coming out of his mouth and twitter feed. As someone once said: If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything.


Do you have a cite for your quote?
Or are you following the model of the progressive media and using a few of his words and a few of your own to make something that sounds a bit more nefarious?
While you hate our President, you should consider the notion that most Americans agree that he is appropriately calling out media bias.
 


 
From the horse's mouth:


Exactly. Trump specified that the “fake news media” was the enemy of the people, they are and I agree.

The poster above inferred that “journalists” were the enemy of the people.

Thank you for driving my point home.

#112 chicagoresident

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:44 PM

If you haven't noticed I love arguing on the internet. It forces me to research and back opinions up with facts.

Distilled down the debate isn't you're right VS I'm right, it's that we have a difference of opinions due to bias.

I think Trump calling, in your opinion "real news" outlets "fake news" is a good thing because it stimulates critical thinking.

2+2=4 and Trump is our president are facts. Why he's president and if he should remain president are, as of now, opinions.

I would argue people not being self aware of their biases is a bigger threat to America then people's opinions on the truthfulness of media outlets (no matter how right or wrong they get the story). It's the one thing stopping us from not all getting along.

For as irreligious as we are as a country these days it's amazing where else everyone adopts their dogma.

My intent isn't to insult, but to bait you into exposing your biases that reinforce your "facts" as opinions. All in the discourse of debate. On the internet. Which is fun, unless I am rustling jimmies, in which case I'll cease and let you enjoy the board without feeling picked on.





Also my wall of texts is a repository of research, I doubt everyone reads it, but I frequently go back to posts and pull from them in other debates and fact finding exercises.

Edited by chicagoresident, 10 August 2018 - 01:13 PM.


#113 steveTA1983

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 07:37 AM

.

Edited by steveTA1983, 11 August 2018 - 08:26 PM.


#114 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 10:09 AM

Biases that "allow" you to ignore blatantly contradictory facts regardless on which side of the turn signal your on. 

There's just a whole lot of that going on... 

My biases "allows" me to think who's worse, I could be wrong ;) 


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#115 chicagoresident

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 01:15 PM

Biases that "allow" you to ignore blatantly contradictory facts regardless on which side of the turn signal your on. 
There's just a whole lot of that going on... 
My biases "allows" me to think who's worse, I could be wrong ;)

Exactly, you're either "blue pilled" or "red pilled" and in the ether, or you've taken the black pill and are fully aware of how the world works. Idealism is good when you have little to lose, it keeps the youth and the proletariat from revolting. When you have a family, money, stuff, and your own network of non superficial friends a healthy dose of realism keeps you grounded in the "what's best for us state of mind. Related:
typology_age2.png

http://www.pewresear...oting-behavior/

Anybody that says they voted the way they did because "its best for America" instead of the lesser of two evils that were "best for them" is out of touch with their biases. They are repressing extreme cognitive dissonance that bubbles up in rage when questioned (the typical 2 sides of a left VS right screaming contest or fisticuffs).

I don't begrudge anyone in government or a business that benefits from a Democrat being in office for voting DNC. If someone votes Pritzker because they want legal marijuana good for them, they're at least more honest then the "he's best for Illinois" people. I loved my old neighbors, even if they hated Trump because a member of the family was illegal, I get it.

I just can't stand the people that call us stupid or evil for voting the way we do in a number of elections, be it gun control, finances, business, or whatever.

Yes, this board leans mostly right, but we're obvious about our bias of loving guns and gun rights for all. We're also not in the ether as we're quick to call out any GOP politician that doesn't support gun rights.

On the subject of liking or disliking the NRA as a gun owner that's fair. Plenty of threads/members (including myself) go back and forth on "they're the best we got" VS let's fund something better. Bias is often reinforced by NRA members (other board members) VS throwing money at something better (what I do). But no hate from me for lifetime NRA members, it still warms my heart to see the stickers on cars.

Edited by chicagoresident, 11 August 2018 - 01:50 PM.





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