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Clear & Present Danger? Police seize guns. FOID appeal?


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#1 Boxxer

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 11:22 PM

On the phone with customer service who kept giving me contradictory information and the runaround, I finally got upset and said I could just commit suicide and hung up on them. Police showed up and didn't give me much of a choice about going to the ER but they first seized my guns "for safekeeping" while refusing to let me do an inventory and refused to give me a receipt.
ER doctor released me under five minutes, especially when I admitted I was angry and acted like a drama queen. Police filed "clear and present danger" on me and said it's up to the ISP to determine if I really am a clear and present danger. Despite I don't have a criminal record, and I'm a veteran and work part-time at an IDOC facility, I got the feeling I'm pretty much screwed and can kiss my guns goodbye despite the majority of them are family heirlooms. The police Sgt said they'll probably rule in my favor but I have no idea how long it'll take ISP to determine that I'm one of the good guys. Then again with the school shootings on the news, I feel they won't rule out Am I screwed or should I sit back and wait for ISP to make their ruling? Then again how long will it take them to do that? Or should I start the process to appeal? Or is it time to get a lawyer?

#2 biggun 1

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 12:04 AM

i would talk to a lawyer.espically now with all the gun grabbers going totally crazy.



#3 Cerus

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 12:05 AM

Um...what customer service were you calling that you would use a threat of suicide as some sort of leverage and why would you even do such a thing? Also - what proof would the local police even have that it was you who made the statement? Lastly, while I’m not an expert on all of ILs laws, I’m not aware of one that allows the police to sieze firearms without a court order.

Seems to be some crucial information missing here.

#4 Euler

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 12:50 AM

... Also - what proof would the local police even have that it was you who made the statement? ...


A lot of customer service organizations record their phone calls. It's pretty standard procedure to forward threats of suicide to authorities. Anyone who ignores such a threat is open for civil liability if the suicide then actually occurs.

Edited by Euler, 03 March 2018 - 12:50 AM.

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#5 Cerus

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 01:00 AM

... Also - what proof would the local police even have that it was you who made the statement? ...

A lot of customer service organizations record their phone calls. It's pretty standard procedure to forward threats of suicide to authorities. Anyone who ignores such a threat is open for civil liability if the suicide then actually occurs.

Again where’s the actual proof? It’s not as if a person can’t give a fake name or spoof a phone number. Unless you admit to it they have zero proof when they show up.

And I don’t think a customer service center or individual can be held liable unless they directly caused the suicide. Those cases are hard to prove even still.

#6 GTX63

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 03:47 AM

How did they know you had guns?

 

How did they gain interior access to your home?

 

:geek:



#7 bmurph44

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 07:01 AM

On the phone with customer service who kept giving me contradictory information and the runaround, I finally got upset and said I could just commit suicide and hung up on them. Police showed up and didn't give me much of a choice about going to the ER but they first seized my guns "for safekeeping" while refusing to let me do an inventory and refused to give me a receipt.
ER doctor released me under five minutes, especially when I admitted I was angry and acted like a drama queen. Police filed "clear and present danger" on me and said it's up to the ISP to determine if I really am a clear and present danger. Despite I don't have a criminal record, and I'm a veteran and work part-time at an IDOC facility, I got the feeling I'm pretty much screwed and can kiss my guns goodbye despite the majority of them are family heirlooms. The police Sgt said they'll probably rule in my favor but I have no idea how long it'll take ISP to determine that I'm one of the good guys. Then again with the school shootings on the news, I feel they won't rule out Am I screwed or should I sit back and wait for ISP to make their ruling? Then again how long will it take them to do that? Or should I start the process to appeal? Or is it time to get a lawyer?

 

Did you really have to create a new user name to post this silly fake scenario?



#8 Boxxer

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 07:35 AM

Silly fake scenario? Then I guess having a millionaire reality show TV star for president who thought President Jackson's nickname was Stonewall is silly and fake too.

My insurance company kept giving me contradictory information. I was on the phone with them literally all day. They had me calling other places to get info they should already had. The last rep was laughing and I felt like she wasn't taking my case or me seriously and that's when I blew it. When the police showed up, I was till really ticked off. If I had 15 minutes to cool out, everything would be fine. When they said I go could willingly or in handcuffs to the ER, I asked if I could get my keys, wallet and put my shoes on. I said they could come in to be sure that's all I'm going to do. I was cooled off by then and told them I was fine. They asked if I had any weapons, I told the truth. They asked where they were, I told the truth. They said they were taking them for safekeeping, I only said OK and asked for a receipt. They said I didn't need one. I asked when I'd get them back, and they said probably that night. After the ER, I called the police and the officer was done his shift so I came back the next day and that's when they filed the "clear and present danger." The Sgt said I'd probably be okay cause there's a lot worse "clear and present danger" cases. He said they could give my guns to someone with a FOID but not me. I got a friend to help out and called the police for the procedure and was told there's a new form they had to get from ISP and it takes about a week and they would call me. It's been a week and half and I heard nothing. I emailed the Sgt but didn't get a reply I think maybe he's off duty. In meantime, I shopped around for a lawyer. I really could care less about getting my 2nd amendment rights back in Illinois. I just want my property out of the policy's custody and in the custody of my friend. I'm trying to get out of Illinois!

#9 Glock23

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:41 AM

Yeah, threatening suicide isn't really the best way to keep your guns... y'know, that whole danger to yourself or others thing is pretty much the foundation of being prohibited due to mental illness.

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#10 Sweeper13

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:51 AM

Sorry to hear about your issue. My opinion for any gun owner in today's society and especially in Illinois, NEVER say what you said to ANYONE. Those words will more then likely get you in big trouble as you posted. I hope all turns out well and Im following.



#11 Boxxer

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 09:04 AM

First, I can get statements from psychiatrists, therapists, doctors, phds that attest I'm not a clear and present danger. Or is the ISP qualified to make that determination? If they thought I was a danger to myself, why didn't they take the kitchen knives or the gas oven for that matter?
Second, instead of commenting on what has been done, can't we focus on solutions? Or like I said, am I screwed and can kiss goodbye not only my guns but also my range gear they took too? They put my guns in my range bag and took the whole thing. I'm more worried they destroy or auction off my property before I can reclaim it.

#12 InterestedBystander

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 09:14 AM

There is an appeals process. You may need an evaluation statement. There are other threads here on the board or Molly will be able to guide you along.

He said they could give my guns to someone with a FOID but not me. I got a friend to help out and called the police for the procedure and was told there's a new form they had to get from ISP and it takes about a week and they would call me. It's been a week and half and I heard nothing.

The form referenced I believe comes from ISP once your FOID is revoked and requires turning in card at local PD and listing description and disposition of each firearm. If you can get them released now to someone with a FOID, I would look into that for the time being.

Range gear...like? why would they take that and while never in that position, no receipts seems strange to me.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 03 March 2018 - 09:17 AM.

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#13 BobPistol

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 11:18 AM

Freedom of speech is dead. 


The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.

#14 Glock23

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 11:51 AM

Freedom of speech is dead. 

I don't believe threats (even against oneself) were ever protected.

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#15 Buzzard

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 01:25 PM

 

Freedom of speech is dead. 

I don't believe threats (even against oneself) were ever protected.

 

 

And you cannot yell "MOVIE!!" in a crowded firehouse.



#16 Boxxer

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 01:50 PM

There is an appeals process. You may need an evaluation statement. There are other threads here on the board or Molly will be able to guide you along.
 

He said they could give my guns to someone with a FOID but not me. I got a friend to help out and called the police for the procedure and was told there's a new form they had to get from ISP and it takes about a week and they would call me. It's been a week and half and I heard nothing.

The form referenced I believe comes from ISP once your FOID is revoked and requires turning in card at local PD and listing description and disposition of each firearm. If you can get them released now to someone with a FOID, I would look into that for the time being.

Range gear...like? why would they take that and while never in that position, no receipts seems strange to me.

 

I had ammo in my range bag, along with cleaning kit, eye protection, tools, etc.  The police decided it was easier to put my guns in the bag and use it for transport. 

 

Just got the letter from ISP today. My FOID is officially revoked and I need to turn in my card within 48 hours of getting the letter as well fill out a Firearm Disposition Record disclosing make, model, serial number of each firearm.  Uh, I think that list was in my range bag. I doubt it can fill out that form tomorrow at the PD station since their business office doesn't open until Monday and Monday I'm heading out-of-state for a job interview. The ISP was kind enough to include instructions on an appeal. I think I may have to hire a lawyer to do the grunt work for me seeing how ISP said I got 45 days to submit the supporting documentation for an appeal. 



#17 Boxxer

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 10:01 PM

I think they sent me the wrong Appeal Requirements form, they sent me the one for non-Mental Health.  According to the letter they sent, the prohibitor is "clear and present danger" and the instructions say I am to use the FOID Appeal Requirements-Mental Health. I guess they weren't paying attention about which form they were mailing out? Or, should I not question it?



#18 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 09:01 AM

Lesson to be learned that most of us here already know, but you had to learn the hard way.

Shouldn't ever have made suicide threats to begin with, but besides that:
- NEVER talk to police. You should have never opened the door when they arrived.

- NEVER let the police in your house, ever, unless they have a warrant.

- NEVER voluntarily go with them to a mental health facility. You should have let them arrest you.

Unfortunately, since you agreed to talk to them, let them in your house, take your guns and cart you off to the loony bin, you're pretty much screwed.

You probably should get a lawyer at this point and now it's going to cost you a lot of time and money.

None of this would have happened if you just followed rule number one (don't talk to police).

#19 BigJim

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 08:43 AM

I hope this doesn't come back to bite you in a future background check for employment.


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#20 Xwing

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 08:17 AM

IMO, your easiest path for keeping the family heirlooms away from the auction block is to fill out the forms to have a friend or relative with a FOID pick up the firearms & store them.  There have been a couple of threads here on that process in the past if you search for them.  That should probably be your first priority, to make sure your firearms are safe.  After that, it will be a long (and painful) process to get your FOID re-instated so that you can take possession of them again.  Expect it to take several months. :(  A lawyer isn't required, but would help.


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#21 04 Cobra

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 09:22 AM

Horrible and costly situation that you brought against yourself and property. The actions alone, are text book of what never to do as a legal gun owner , this weighs heavy on the rest of us in already challenging times. Perhaps the "clear and present danger" is accurate  and removal of your weapons was best and safest until a court can rule on the charge.   Best of luck to you. 



#22 Boxxer

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 09:52 AM

When I turned in the form to transfer my property to a friend, the police apologized for taking my guns and said I'm a nice guy but they have to follow procedure. I think the lesson is: always stay in control. Doesn't matter what the situation, getting emotional serves no purpose.

 

Lesson to be learned that most of us here already know, but you had to learn the hard way.

Shouldn't ever have made suicide threats to begin with, but besides that:
- NEVER talk to police. You should have never opened the door when they arrived.

- NEVER let the police in your house, ever, unless they have a warrant.

- NEVER voluntarily go with them to a mental health facility. You should have let them arrest you.

Unfortunately, since you agreed to talk to them, let them in your house, take your guns and cart you off to the loony bin, you're pretty much screwed.

You probably should get a lawyer at this point and now it's going to cost you a lot of time and money.

None of this would have happened if you just followed rule number one (don't talk to police).

 

​So you're saying don't cooperate with the police? I thought about not opening my door but I rent and they could always get the landlord to open it. I thought a good citizen cooperates with the law. Let the cops do their job even if they aren't dong it right. Don't argue with them; the court room is the place to argue. Don't forget that they're human too. 

 

Heck, when I went to turn in the form, the officer and his supervisor both apologized for what happened and said they know I'm a nice guy but they were only following procedure. I blame myself for losing control over the phone that was the catalyst. All of my property has been transferred to a friend with a FOID so that's a load off my mind and that process turned into a piece of cake. I can wait a couple of months. But I really didn't want pay a lawyer's high fees to do the appeal for me but a lawyer knows how to navigate the system a lot quicker than I can. Even though I don't have a criminal record and no other issues affecting my FOID, I passed background checks for IDOC and the state board of education, I'm not in debit, and despite that I can get a lot of letters (even from doctors) saying I'm a good guy, they can always disprove my appeal for no reason at all, right? 

 

I just had a job interview in Texas so I'm wondering If they disprove my appeal or if I don't appeal but move to another state, does that mean I'm not eligible to own or handle a firearm in a state outside of Illinois? I mean, say I move to Texas or even Vermont, try to buy a gun or even ammo, would I be denied because of what happened in Illinois? Or does it stay only in the state system?  



#23 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 11:44 AM

The issue isn't about "cooperating" with police.
In a case like this, you don't want any contact with them if you can avoid it since nothing good will come of it. You saw what happened in your case when you "cooperated".

It's about asserting your rights.
You don't need to talk to the police, you didn't need to let them search your house and you certainly didn't need to let them "voluntarily" cart you off to a mental health facility.

In this case, you didn't assert your rights and are now in a bind because of it. This situation could affect you for the rest of your life and should be a lesson for everyone.

#24 Boxxer

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 12:19 PM

If I didn't go voluntarily, then could I have been taken into custody for "my own safety" and perhaps charged with disobeying a lawful order or whatever else there is. I never gave them permission to search my house, I only told them the location of the guns. I felt I was acting morally but the law isn't always moral. I agree it's a lesson and some lessons are learned the hard way. In fact, I probably did everyone a favor by being an example of what not to do.   

 

Anyway, I think it's pretty much agreed that I screwed up but am I screwed for the long haul? The question is: is there a good chance an appeal will succeed? If you guys believe it won't, then I can save myself the effort. Or, what can be done to increase the odds that an appeal will be successful?       

 

Then again, if I move out of state, is an appeal even necessary? It would be ​if​ the incident is reported on a federal level or shared with other states. But I have no knowledge how that works.



#25 Xwing

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 01:43 PM

From the facts you reported, I believe you have a very winnable case for FOID, but not a winnable case for CCW.

 

The federal question is an interesting one.  You probably should get the "state" situation cleaned up, to avoid possibility of running afoul of federal law if you move (https://www.atf.gov/...0-4pdf/download)

922 Unlawful acts.
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person
(4) ... who has been committed to a mental institution;...  to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

It would really be a stretch, but it seems to be the same stretch the state is using...

[EDIT]:  On second thought, I don't see how they could rule the above applicable, but I'll keep it in the post just for your information.

 

And I bring up one more issue.  If you don't get your FOID back, there may be some challenges in legally removing the firearms from Illinois.  (e.g. you cannot legally touch them as a resident of Illinois, but you also cannot private-party transfer handguns interstate, so how can your friend legally give them back to you?)  There are probably ways to do this while complying with the law (federal & state), but you'll have to research that in depth.  If you get your FOID reinstated and your friend transfers them back to you while you're a resident of Illinois, this pitfall goes away...

 

Good luck

 

IANAL, so this isn't legal advice.  You may need to retain an hour or two of an attorney trained in this area in order to lock down all the details.


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#26 WitchDoctor

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 01:48 PM

Always remain optimistic, also know your enemy and how not to let them get you. Fix yourself and go get those guns back!


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#27 Cerus

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 07:43 PM

 
So you're saying don't cooperate with the police? I thought about not opening my door but I rent and they could always get the landlord to open it. I thought a good citizen cooperates with the law. Let the cops do their job even if they aren't dong it right. Don't argue with them; the court room is the place to argue. Don't forget that they're human too. 


You wouldn’t have to worry about affording an attorney if the landlord unlocked your door for the police. There’s a time and place for total cooperation with the police. When they show up at your home uninvited without a warrant isn’t generally one of them. Refuse to speak with them (don’t even acknowledge them) or speak with them through a window if you feel you must. When you’re in your own residence you have the majority of the power.

If they’ve got you pulled over in your vehicle then the decision to cooperate depends on you and the reason for the interaction. But in your own home when you don’t want them there? F em.

#28 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:40 AM

Anyway, I think it's pretty much agreed that I screwed up but am I screwed for the long haul? The question is: is there a good chance an appeal will succeed? If you guys believe it won't, then I can save myself the effort. Or, what can be done to increase the odds that an appeal will be successful?


If you put forth a good effort, I think you can get this situation resolved and your guns back.
In any case, you should definitely try. At the worst, you might need to hire a lawyer to help out and at the very worst you can always move out of state if necessary.

#29 jim123

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 01:55 PM

 

Anyway, I think it's pretty much agreed that I screwed up but am I screwed for the long haul? The question is: is there a good chance an appeal will succeed? If you guys believe it won't, then I can save myself the effort. Or, what can be done to increase the odds that an appeal will be successful?


If you put forth a good effort, I think you can get this situation resolved and your guns back.
In any case, you should definitely try. At the worst, you might need to hire a lawyer to help out and at the very worst you can always move out of state if necessary.

 

Doesn't his "clear and present danger" thing in illinois make him prohibited in every state?



#30 JTHunter

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 03:17 PM

Anyway, I think it's pretty much agreed that I screwed up but am I screwed for the long haul? The question is: is there a good chance an appeal will succeed? If you guys believe it won't, then I can save myself the effort. Or, what can be done to increase the odds that an appeal will be successful?

If you put forth a good effort, I think you can get this situation resolved and your guns back.
In any case, you should definitely try. At the worst, you might need to hire a lawyer to help out and at the very worst you can always move out of state if necessary.

Doesn't his "clear and present danger" thing in Illinois make him prohibited in every state?

 

Possibly but I think that would only happen if they report it to NICS.  Good luck Boxxer.


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