lockman Posted February 14, 2015 at 05:29 PM Share Posted February 14, 2015 at 05:29 PM That ammunition is in common use since its inception and it certainly falls within the definition of arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoffsoft Posted February 14, 2015 at 05:59 PM Share Posted February 14, 2015 at 05:59 PM Gander Mountain in Geneva has some in ammo cans, at $200/420 on strippers. It's about all that is out there right now, the panic has begun. Start hitting your big box retailers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoffsoft Posted February 14, 2015 at 06:16 PM Share Posted February 14, 2015 at 06:16 PM And it seems like this is a deliberate provocation one step below going after the guns themselves. Go after the cheap, high quality ammo and choke off the gun culture step by step. I hope no gun owner is ever stupid enough to vote for a democrat for national office again. This is where we figure out who the RINOs are too. Looking at you, Mark Kirk. <spit> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieJ309 Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:53 PM Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 at 08:53 PM People are even panic buying M193 and other regular .223/5.56 now out of fear that their prices will increase. Looks like it might be time for me to seriously look into reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAS3987 Posted February 15, 2015 at 03:40 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 03:40 AM After reading this, I have one question to those who don't think this is only the beginning. Today it's this type of projectile, what about tomorrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WtJen Posted February 15, 2015 at 04:03 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 04:03 AM I've been watching the various bulk ammo sites. A lot of them are sold out on the M855 and XM855 ammo. Also I noticed that several other types of 5.56 and .223 ammo at bulkammo.com have been sold out that aren't even part of the proposed ban. I would say the panic is full on. Gun broker has guys trying to sell M855 ammo for a $1/round. LOL Sandy Hook all over again for 5.56/.223 is what is developing. Glad I stocked up before this went down. Course I could always use more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGunner81 Posted February 15, 2015 at 05:25 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 05:25 AM Anyone care to share a sample letter I'm not the best at writing letters so I'm looking for ideas... even if it doesn't change the outcome I want to do something other then bitching and moaning online which typically goes unheard by those who have influence.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadroid Posted February 15, 2015 at 05:30 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 05:30 AM This is outrageous. We have to draw a line in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearsmithy Posted February 15, 2015 at 05:34 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 05:34 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGunner81 Posted February 15, 2015 at 05:56 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 05:56 AM This is outrageous. We have to draw a line in the sand. I think that's been said a long time ago and they already walked over that line time and time again... So what else ya got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieJ309 Posted February 15, 2015 at 06:05 AM Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 06:05 AM Anyone care to share a sample letter I'm not the best at writing letters so I'm looking for ideas... even if it doesn't change the outcome I want to do something other then bitching and moaning online which typically goes unheard by those who have influence.... I didn't write this, but it was offered up for others to use. I am writing to you in response to a recently released notice from theATF to re-classify M855 and SS109 ammunition in an effort to ban itfrom the consumer market. I would ask that this current proposal and all legislation thatrestricts or bans ammunition, regardless if it’s used in a rifle orhandgun, be repealed. The ATF is proposing to restrict M855/SS109,which has been allowed by the same agency for the past 30 years, iscommonly used in sporting rifle competitions and/or training for thesesame events. This ban would impact the ability of law-abiding citizensto continue participating in these events and limit the ammunitionavailable to the shooting community. Additionally, thebanning/restricting of M855/SS109 by the ATF is simply a backdoorattempt to ban the AR15 platform by restricting the ammunition ituses. This notice clearly goes against the protection provided by the 2ndamendment of “shall not infringe”. Attorney General Eric Holder recently stated his biggest regret wasthe inability to pass any “gun safety laws.” With his statement inmind, we must look at any attempt of the DOJ to restrict firearms andammunition as side-stepping the legislative process and implementingback door gun control. The BATFE is reinterpreting a law that hasbeen in place for 30 years and basing this interpretation on somethingthat hasn’t happened. The BATFE did not present any evidence of thisammunition being used in a crime, but wants to stop law-abidingcitizens from purchasing this commonly used ammunition. I look forward to your response on this topic and appreciate yourservice to the residents of the state of Illinois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieJ309 Posted February 15, 2015 at 06:12 AM Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 06:12 AM "BATFE Reviewing "Sporting Purposes" Exemption to AP Ammo Law" https://www.nraila.org/articles/20130301/batfe-reviewing-sporting-purposes-exemption-to-ap-ammo-law That article is dated Friday, March 01, 2013. They've been working on this for two years, folks. They have every intention of seeing this through. One can only imagine what other arbitrary changes they have up their sleeves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieJ309 Posted February 15, 2015 at 06:28 AM Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 06:28 AM I forgot to mention this in my emailings to our officials, but if others could include it I think it would help. Some states ban the possession of AP ammo so if the ATF reclassifies M855 it will make instant felons out of otherwise law-abiding citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tvandermyde Posted February 15, 2015 at 07:26 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 07:26 AM I heard from one former ATF guy that own of the NFA trust wonderkids wanted an exemption for 6.8 and wouldn't let it go, so this brought the whole M855 thing up and they decided like the Sig brace to revisit the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flw Posted February 15, 2015 at 10:11 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 10:11 AM Nothing surprises me but could you include where you found this? Also what bothers me is the ATF never seems to include basic info like date of issue, from/to, scope or summary upfront and a name of the person issuing the letter. All this leads to more problems trying to get any information on any issue out of the ATF. Before I try to lend my voice to this issue, I need to verify this is current and basic framework of the letter. ie. any 556/223 is reduced significantly by a shorter barrel which is not mentioned in the letter ever. ATF is the bane of my existence. DanIts a legit letter unfortunately... Its on BATFE's website and is on the NRA's website From the letter (at the end)Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method): ATF website: APAComments@atf.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments. Fax: (202) 648-9741. Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070. Thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradS Posted February 15, 2015 at 11:17 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 11:17 AM "BATFE Reviewing "Sporting Purposes" Exemption to AP Ammo Law" https://www.nraila.org/articles/20130301/batfe-reviewing-sporting-purposes-exemption-to-ap-ammo-law That article is dated Friday, March 01, 2013. They've been working on this for two years, folks. They have every intention of seeing this through. One can only imagine what other arbitrary changes they have up their sleeves...The ATF has had a thing for the Saiga 12 and other shotguns like it (the VEPR and the Akdal) for a few years now. As it is now, the Saiga 12's come into this country in a "sporterized" configuration...no evil looking AK47 pistol grip. A person can convert their neutered Saiga over into something that more closely resembles an AK. There are a few places like Krebs and Tromix who do the conversions professionally. The Saigas, et al, were all the rage among the open division 3 gunners. Maybe 7 years ago they were priced right around $200 to $300 for the sporterized version. Now, you would be lucky to find one at $600. Anyway...that is my best guess as to their next move...all based on that sporting purposes (read: hunting) clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradS Posted February 15, 2015 at 11:19 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 11:19 AM Double tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTX63 Posted February 15, 2015 at 11:29 AM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 11:29 AM Taxation and regulation for the good of us all, not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTX63 Posted February 15, 2015 at 12:29 PM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 12:29 PM I'm far from an expert, but my understanding is that the M193 actually outpenetrates M855 at closer ranges due to the higher velocity, where M855 shines is at longer ranges from those 1/7 barrels. AR500 has just marketed a TLIII+ plate that is rated for M193 at close range:http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armo...-armor-en.html. We will have to stay tuned but I am really hoping to see the end of the common use ammo search threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WtJen Posted February 15, 2015 at 12:32 PM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 12:32 PM I forgot to mention this in my emailings to our officials, but if others could include it I think it would help. Some states ban the possession of AP ammo so if the ATF reclassifies M855 it will make instant felons out of otherwise law-abiding citizens. Here is our particular version of Illinois state law "Armor piercing bullet" means any handgun bullet or handgun ammunition with projectiles or projectile cores constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium, or fully jacketed bullets larger than 22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25% of the total weight of the projectile, and excluding those handgun projectiles whose cores are composed of soft materials such as lead or lead alloys, zinc or zinc alloys, frangible projectiles designed primarily for sporting purposes, and any other projectiles or projectile cores that the U. S. Secretary of the Treasury finds to be primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes or industrial purposes or that otherwise does not constitute "armor piercing ammunition" as that term is defined by federal law. - Now, depending on how you want to interpret all of the above, Illinois might say that if the BATFE declares them armor piercing then they are armor piercing regardless of whether they fit the technical definition or not. If they do, mere possession would be a Class 3 felony. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/ilstatutes/720/5/24/24-2_1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getzapped Posted February 15, 2015 at 02:09 PM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 02:09 PM Let the panic begin! (Gunbroker) http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/15/57f6263ac42600d685cb9c35638152eb.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGunner81 Posted February 15, 2015 at 07:41 PM Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 07:41 PM My Rant about this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieJ309 Posted February 15, 2015 at 10:21 PM Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 at 10:21 PM I know I already posted a scripted letter to send to our officials, but another one was written that I feel would make more of an impact. To the Honorable ______, Recently the ATF made an announcement that it would move to make a very commonly used round of ammunition, namely the 5.56x45 mm M855, illegal to manufacture and sell. It is currently open to a comment period on their website until March 16. There was initially an exemption for this round carved out as there were no pistol's commonly available on the market that could shoot it. That has recently changed. However, the exception was never needed and the ATF is ignoring federal statutes as to what actually constitutes an Armor Piercing Round. They're doing so completely arbitrarily, and given Eric Holder's most recent statement about being unable to enact any gun control legislation, one is left to wonder if this is not the last wish of a man on his way out of the DOJ. This is the federal law regarding "AP" ammunition."Armor-piercing ammunition, sometimes referred to as metal-piercing ammunition, is ammunition that is designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, including body armor commonly worn by police officers. Under federal law, armor-piercing ammunition is defined as any projectile or projectile core that may be used in a handgun and that is constructed entirely from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.15 In addition, armor-piercing ammunition is defined as a full jacketed projectile "larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Id. The Attorney General is required to furnish information to each licensed dealer defining which projectiles are considered armor-piercing ammunition as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(17)(B ).16"The two requirements to qualify as "AP" ammunition are clearly stated, however the M855 projectile clearly does not meet them. The M855 projectile is a 62 grain lead core round with a steel portion between the apex of the copper jacket and the lead core. The copper jacket of the projectile makes up approximately 17% of the weight of the entire cartridge, a far cry from the stipulated 25%. The core is entirely made of lead with a comparable percentage of steel between the jacket and the core. The projectile is a .224 caliber projectile just the same as .22 LR projectile. It's similar to how a 2x4 is not actually 2x4 inches. All .22 ammunition is nominally measured at .224 inches. Nor was this projectile DESIGNED and INTENDED to be fired from pistols. The AR pistol is an innovation that has arrived several decades after the projectile and was driven by the market. The ATF's excuse that this is for "officer safety" is disingenuous at best and at worst is a concerted effort to play on fears and emotions by implying that their is a problem where none actually exists.It seems that many legislators are writing back to their constituents that there is nothing that they can do as the ATF is outside of their purview. This is not true. The U.S. House Controls the purse strings of this organization and at the very least can enact to legislation to exempt the M855, which makes up a very very large portion of the market supply of ammunition, from the ATF's arbitrary and malevolent rulings. This is clearly an effort to drive up prices and shrink the supply for firearms enthusiast and further suffocate the 2nd Amendment by an administration that has not hidden it's distaste for the founding principles of this nation. I ask you as my Representative to stand for us. Interject yourself between the Executive and your people, as is your job, and prevent them from denying us our god given, and Constitutionally protected rights... no matter how incremental the incursion may seem. I look forward to what is hopefully not a cookie cutter response written by a staffer in your office...but to a heart felt and well thought out reply to this very serious and grave concern that puts us all further at risk. I hope you enjoyed your weekend Ma'am.Respectfully Submitted, Name Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang31 Posted February 16, 2015 at 12:19 AM Share Posted February 16, 2015 at 12:19 AM Let the panic begin! (Gunbroker) Cheaper Than Dirt is selling 900 round cans for $840 http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-DKG-A5569 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoverGunner Posted February 16, 2015 at 12:46 AM Share Posted February 16, 2015 at 12:46 AM Let the panic begin! (Gunbroker)Cheaper Than Dirt is selling 900 round cans for $840 http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-DKG-A5569 Coming from Cheater than Unobtanium does it surprise you or anyone ??????Let the next ammo run/rush/shortage begin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieJ309 Posted February 16, 2015 at 12:59 AM Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 at 12:59 AM Let the panic begin! (Gunbroker)Cheaper Than Dirt is selling 900 round cans for $840 http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-DKG-A5569 That stuff isn't the same as M855. From what I've read on the ammo you posted it's normal price is $600+ per can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WtJen Posted February 16, 2015 at 01:13 AM Share Posted February 16, 2015 at 01:13 AM During the intermissions between panics, it is important to buy some ammo all along. Then you can avoid the high prices and ride them out. When one caliber becomes non-existent or cost too much to buy, then buy another. Most of you know what I'm talking about here. I don't have any M855. Never something that appealed to me. When the government does something stupid, like they are doing in this case, just side-step around them and keep buying something else. In the end, when panics like this occur, you can keep on shooting and annoy the politicians who should be safeguarding your rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kk5 Posted February 16, 2015 at 01:57 AM Share Posted February 16, 2015 at 01:57 AM During the intermissions between panics, it is important to buy some ammo all along. Then you can avoid the high prices and ride them out. When one caliber becomes non-existent or cost too much to buy, then buy another. Most of you know what I'm talking about here. I don't have any M855. Never something that appealed to me. When the government does something stupid, like they are doing in this case, just side-step around them and keep buying something else. In the end, when panics like this occur, you can keep on shooting and annoy the politicians who should be safeguarding your rights.I'll second that. Just bought some more Federal M193 AE from Palmetto State Armory, Free shipping over $100 through tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitter Clinger Posted February 16, 2015 at 01:41 PM Share Posted February 16, 2015 at 01:41 PM During the intermissions between panics, it is important to buy some ammo all along. Then you can avoid the high prices and ride them out. When one caliber becomes non-existent or cost too much to buy, then buy another. Most of you know what I'm talking about here. I don't have any M855. Never something that appealed to me. When the government does something stupid, like they are doing in this case, just side-step around them and keep buying something else. In the end, when panics like this occur, you can keep on shooting and annoy the politicians who should be safeguarding your rights. That's all fine and good, but what do we do when eventually the government decides to ban almost all types of ammo using the tactic they're using now? Gotta draw the line somewhere. Can't give one inch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tvandermyde Posted February 16, 2015 at 02:17 PM Share Posted February 16, 2015 at 02:17 PM I have 12,000 rounds for sale at that price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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