Jump to content


Photo

New IL GFZ Signs: Compliant?


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#1 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,751 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 10 September 2019 - 01:56 PM

Have any of you been seeing these signs that have everything right except the gun silhouette being a different gun that a 92fs? I saw one at JoAnne Fabric in Carbondale a few months back that looked like a PX4 Storm, and one of my concealed carry students just sent this to me from the movie theater in Marion. The theater had the lower non-compliant sign up since the FCCA was passed. The one on top is a relatively new one.

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#2 Bubbacs

    #Fear The Clown

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 3,276 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 14

Posted 10 September 2019 - 01:58 PM

Pictures?

#3 Lou

    Resident Old Guy

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 13,773 posts
  • Joined: 18-May 04

Posted 10 September 2019 - 02:07 PM

I tend to not pay a whole lot of attention to them but I can swear I saw one that was a 1911 instead of the 92F


People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -  George Orwell

A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again. 


#4 MagSlap

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,551 posts
  • Joined: 06-January 15

Posted 10 September 2019 - 02:10 PM

nogunz.jpg



#5 Bubbacs

    #Fear The Clown

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 3,276 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 14

Posted 10 September 2019 - 02:43 PM

I’ve seen that one too
It’s on a small Bodega in Englewood
The beginnings of a live turned around by art.......

#6 Glock23

    I am no one.

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 4,480 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 13

Posted 10 September 2019 - 02:50 PM

If there's supposed to be a picture attached, I'm not seeing it. That said, the "type" of handgun isn't specified, and it doesn't have to be the exact sign as on the ISP's website. 4" x 6" sign White background Black handgun Red circle/slash Black border FCCA reference Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
** Illinois Carry - Supporting Member
** National Association for Gun Rights - Frontline Defender
** Gun Owners of America - Annual Member
** Illinois State Rifle Association - 3 year American Hero Member
** Second Amendment Foundation - Life Member
** National Rifle Association - Patron Life Member

#7 Quiet Observer

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 1,464 posts
  • Joined: 20-May 15

Posted 10 September 2019 - 03:37 PM

Requirements for Concealed Carry Signage

Owners of any statutorily prohibited area or private property, excluding residences, where the owner prohibits the carrying of firearms must clearly and conspicuously post the Illinois State Police approved sign, in accordance with Firearm Concealed Carry Act, at the entrance of the building, premises or real property. Please refer to Section 65 (Prohibited Areas) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act for more information on statutory requirements for signage as well as where concealed weapons are prohibited.

Pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act, signs must be of a uniform design and the Illinois State Police is responsible for adopting rules for standardized signs. The Illinois State Police has proposed rules which require a white background; no text (except the reference to the Illinois Code 430 ILCS 66/1) or marking within the one-inch area surrounding the graphic design; a depiction of a handgun in black ink with a circle around and diagonal slash across the firearm in red ink; and that the circle be 4 inches in diameter. The sign in its entirety will measure 4 inches x 6 inches.

signage.jpg Click on the image or use the link below to download a template of the approved sign.

NOTE: When printing the sign, please ensure the black borders surrounding the "no firearms" symbol measure 4 inches from top to bottom and 6 inches from left to right.

Concealed Carry Prohibited Area Sign (PDF)

https://ispfsb.com/Public/Signage.aspx 



#8 Bubbacs

    #Fear The Clown

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 3,276 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 14

Posted 10 September 2019 - 03:48 PM

We are really doing this 5 plus years later?
I thought he was kidding
And the hand drawn picture was a sign it isn’t real

This whole sign legal or not thing has been beaten to death

#9 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,751 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 10 September 2019 - 04:08 PM

Pictures?

I thought I attached it. Re

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#10 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,751 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 10 September 2019 - 04:12 PM

Here it is.

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG951582.jpg

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#11 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,751 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 10 September 2019 - 04:15 PM

I have assumed it was legal, but since the law shows a specific sign design, my student was curious. Glad to have a student that noticed the difference in gun silhouettes!

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#12 Euler

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,096 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 18

Posted 10 September 2019 - 04:23 PM

... it doesn't have to be the exact sign as on the ISP's website. 4" x 6" sign White background Black handgun Red circle/slash Black border FCCA reference


NoDerringers.png

Edited by Euler, 10 September 2019 - 04:24 PM.

The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#13 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,751 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 10 September 2019 - 04:31 PM

I am once again reminded why I frequent few gun forums or forums of any kind. 


United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#14 soundguy

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 6,528 posts
  • Joined: 27-February 05

Posted 10 September 2019 - 04:41 PM

If in doubt, find another place to carry.
Life is a cooperative venture... That's what makes it work.

#15 Frank

    "Frank can Glock"

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 2,611 posts
  • Joined: 01-April 09

Posted 10 September 2019 - 06:01 PM

Requirements for Concealed Carry Signage

Owners of any statutorily prohibited area or private property, excluding residences, where the owner prohibits the carrying of firearms must clearly and conspicuously post the Illinois State Police approved sign, in accordance with Firearm Concealed Carry Act, at the entrance of the building, premises or real property. Please refer to Section 65 (Prohibited Areas) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act for more information on statutory requirements for signage as well as where concealed weapons are prohibited.

Pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act, signs must be of a uniform design and the Illinois State Police is responsible for adopting rules for standardized signs. The Illinois State Police has proposed rules which require a white background; no text (except the reference to the Illinois Code 430 ILCS 66/1) or marking within the one-inch area surrounding the graphic design; a depiction of a handgun in black ink with a circle around and diagonal slash across the firearm in red ink; and that the circle be 4 inches in diameter. The sign in its entirety will measure 4 inches x 6 inches.

signage.jpg Click on the image or use the link below to download a template of the approved sign.

NOTE: When printing the sign, please ensure the black borders surrounding the "no firearms" symbol measure 4 inches from top to bottom and 6 inches from left to right.

Concealed Carry Prohibited Area Sign (PDF)

https://ispfsb.com/Public/Signage.aspx 

 

I brought this to the attention of ISP a year or two ago but I see they haven't bothered to correct it. The text from their website quoted above is incorrect. It says, "...no text (except the reference to the Illinois Code 430 ILCS 66/1)..." But in actuality the Administrative Rules defining the no gun sign says no text except "Pursuant to 403 ILCS 66/65." Their sample sign attached above says "Pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/65.".

 

I've seen a couple (non-compliant) signs that say "Pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/1" instead of "Pursuant to 403 ILCS 66/65." Section 65 of the FCCA is the Prohibited Areas section of the law. Section 1 is just the list of definitions used the FCCA. I don't know why the Administrative Rules say 403 ILCS instead of 430 ILCS. Another typo, I'm assuming.

 

-- Frank


Edited by Frank, 10 September 2019 - 06:07 PM.

NRA Life Member - NRA Basic Pistol Instructor - NRA PPIH Instructor - NRA PPOH Instructor - IL Firearms Concealed Carry Instructor - ITWT Club Member #438

"The Supreme Court has decided that the amendment confers a right to bear arms for self-defense, which is as important outside the home as inside." -Moore v. Madigan, 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, December 11, 2012


#16 Mr. Fife

    Nip it

  • Members
  • 5,380 posts
  • Joined: 03-July 10

Posted 10 September 2019 - 07:22 PM

Here it is.

The only thing that I can see that would make that sign not compliant is the extra text in the bottom right corner, below the statute reference.
Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?
 
 

#17 Black Flag

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 551 posts
  • Joined: 06-October 05

Posted 10 September 2019 - 10:40 PM

I think we need a contest now.


Posted Image


#18 gangrel

    Member

  • Members
  • 3,153 posts
  • Joined: 13-April 11

Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:39 PM

I have assumed it was legal, but since the law shows a specific sign design, my student was curious. Glad to have a student that noticed the difference in gun silhouettes!

The LAW does no such thing.  The LAW has no pictures at all.  The JCAR rules provide a sample sign, as does the ISP site (as posted above).  No where in either does it say that you have to use that specific, exact sign, only that it has to be 4X6, white background with a black handgun silhouette and a red circle with a slash, and the words "Pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/65.
 
For your reading pleasure the below is the sum total of what the actual LAW says about the signs.  Note:  no pictures included...
 

Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Department and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size. The Department shall adopt rules for standardized signs to be used under this subsection.


Edited by gangrel, 11 September 2019 - 12:48 PM.

NRA Life Member

NRA Certified Range Safety Officer

NRA Certified Instructor - Basic Pistol, PPIH, PPOH, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety
ISP Approved Firearm Concealed Carry Instructor

Utah CCW Instructor


#19 gangrel

    Member

  • Members
  • 3,153 posts
  • Joined: 13-April 11

Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:44 PM

 

Requirements for Concealed Carry Signage

Owners of any statutorily prohibited area or private property, excluding residences, where the owner prohibits the carrying of firearms must clearly and conspicuously post the Illinois State Police approved sign, in accordance with Firearm Concealed Carry Act, at the entrance of the building, premises or real property. Please refer to Section 65 (Prohibited Areas) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act for more information on statutory requirements for signage as well as where concealed weapons are prohibited.

Pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act, signs must be of a uniform design and the Illinois State Police is responsible for adopting rules for standardized signs. The Illinois State Police has proposed rules which require a white background; no text (except the reference to the Illinois Code 430 ILCS 66/1) or marking within the one-inch area surrounding the graphic design; a depiction of a handgun in black ink with a circle around and diagonal slash across the firearm in red ink; and that the circle be 4 inches in diameter. The sign in its entirety will measure 4 inches x 6 inches.

signage.jpg Click on the image or use the link below to download a template of the approved sign.

NOTE: When printing the sign, please ensure the black borders surrounding the "no firearms" symbol measure 4 inches from top to bottom and 6 inches from left to right.

Concealed Carry Prohibited Area Sign (PDF)

https://ispfsb.com/Public/Signage.aspx 

 

I brought this to the attention of ISP a year or two ago but I see they haven't bothered to correct it. The text from their website quoted above is incorrect. It says, "...no text (except the reference to the Illinois Code 430 ILCS 66/1)..." But in actuality the Administrative Rules defining the no gun sign says no text except "Pursuant to 403 ILCS 66/65." Their sample sign attached above says "Pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/65.".

 

I've seen a couple (non-compliant) signs that say "Pursuant to 430 ILCS 66/1" instead of "Pursuant to 403 ILCS 66/65." Section 65 of the FCCA is the Prohibited Areas section of the law. Section 1 is just the list of definitions used the FCCA. I don't know why the Administrative Rules say 403 ILCS instead of 430 ILCS. Another typo, I'm assuming.

 

-- Frank

 

If this is the case (I have never seen that before today), the administrative rules have a typo.  The actual law in question IS 430 ILCS (Public Safety) 66 (Firearm Concealed Carry Act)/65 (Prohibited Places).  I don't know that 403 ILCS even exists.


NRA Life Member

NRA Certified Range Safety Officer

NRA Certified Instructor - Basic Pistol, PPIH, PPOH, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety
ISP Approved Firearm Concealed Carry Instructor

Utah CCW Instructor


#20 Bubbacs

    #Fear The Clown

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 3,276 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 14

Posted 11 September 2019 - 01:21 PM

5FFFA7BA-59C1-4107-A01D-E4ACC827A7E1.jpeg

#21 Glock23

    I am no one.

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 4,480 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 13

Posted 11 September 2019 - 02:16 PM

We are really doing this 5 plus years later?
I thought he was kidding
And the hand drawn picture was a sign it isn’t real
This whole sign legal or not thing has been beaten to death

Lighten up, dude.

Not everyone who carries is a member here, or were years ago when we had this discussion.

New people are carrying every day, and if they have questions, they should receive answers.

If you feel it's beating a dead horse, you're welcome to not participate.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


** Illinois Carry - Supporting Member
** National Association for Gun Rights - Frontline Defender
** Gun Owners of America - Annual Member
** Illinois State Rifle Association - 3 year American Hero Member
** Second Amendment Foundation - Life Member
** National Rifle Association - Patron Life Member

#22 soundguy

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 6,528 posts
  • Joined: 27-February 05

Posted 11 September 2019 - 03:56 PM

It is good to periodically go over old material for our new comrades, even when it seems annoying and all those who keep up on this stuff know it should have been covered in The Class and be easily accessible in the students notes or Official Class Handouts.

 

I think we should take turns being supportive in the quest for rules clarification or outraged at the battered equine carcasses littering this hallowed place...

 

As I recall... the sign must be the official sign available from ISP. All others are non-compliant and yet should probably be honored as compliant as they indicate the wishes of the establishment they are posted upon. One verified exception is the confusing non-compliant sign posted at (da) Jewel(s). It is a notice to on duty vendors and employees.

 

Having a standard sign posted in a specified standard location with no deviations allowed makes it easy for us to spot.

I imagine this was intentional.


Life is a cooperative venture... That's what makes it work.

#23 Bubbacs

    #Fear The Clown

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 3,276 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 14

Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:24 PM

We are really doing this 5 plus years later?
I thought he was kidding
And the hand drawn picture was a sign it isn’t real
This whole sign legal or not thing has been beaten to death

Lighten up, dude.

Not everyone who carries is a member here, or were years ago when we had this discussion.

New people are carrying every day, and if they have questions, they should receive answers.

If you feel it's beating a dead horse, you're welcome to not participate.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Sorry
I assumed the guy who posted (OP) with over 2700 posts and a member since ‘09 would know!
But I get it, he’s new to carry and hasn’t been here.

No beating a horse then, just carry on.........

#24 Glock23

    I am no one.

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 4,480 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 13

Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:24 PM

As I recall... the sign must be the official sign available from ISP. All others are non-compliant


No. There is no official sign. The sign on the ISP site is just an example.

A compliant sign could have a black revolver, as long as all the requirements were met.
** Illinois Carry - Supporting Member
** National Association for Gun Rights - Frontline Defender
** Gun Owners of America - Annual Member
** Illinois State Rifle Association - 3 year American Hero Member
** Second Amendment Foundation - Life Member
** National Rifle Association - Patron Life Member

#25 CILhunter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 268 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 13

Posted 12 September 2019 - 05:28 AM

 

As I recall... the sign must be the official sign available from ISP. All others are non-compliant


No. There is no official sign. The sign on the ISP site is just an example.

A compliant sign could have a black revolver, as long as all the requirements were met.

 

 

My local State's Attorney disagrees with you.

 

One of the folks from GSL, who shall not be mentioned here, carried in a location which was ostensibly "posted", but with a non-standard sign - I think it might have been the revolver one that you mention.  He made no secret about it, and our State's Attorney said based on the language in the statute, it had to be the EXACT sign that the statute references.  Down to the prescribed size, with the statute citation, and even including the black border.  

 

Yes, this seems nit-picky and stupid, but as I say to people at work every day, when you are dealing with the law, words mean things, and you have to think about what they mean in order to interpret the law.  This is a poorly drafted statute, and a direct result of the legislature not being able to leave well enough the *heck* alone, and feeling the need to micromanage every detail.

 

Would I expect this same result in Cook County? No. Thank God there are still parts of Illinois where there is some freedom.



#26 Bitter Clinger

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,219 posts
  • Joined: 05-February 14

Posted 12 September 2019 - 06:01 AM

But I could totally see someone carrying past a non-compliant sign, then getting arrested and an overzealos prosecutor claiming they should have "known the intent", even though the sign was non-compliant.



#27 Bubbacs

    #Fear The Clown

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 3,276 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 14

Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:49 AM

When, and IF you carry past a sign, do you tell the manager inside?
Do you walk funny, adjust your belt every 5 seconds, ready as high as possible, stoop over for every item in the store?
Is you carry license on the back of you phone in one of these clear cases for credit cards, ( yes I saw the guys license ).

Based upon this, I would never advocate the breaking of any laws and to just ignore. But we all have been there and done that.
And can’t remember reading or hearing about a CONCEALED Carrier being busted for it without being a @$$clown prior to getting busted. Or actually being the smooth operator who draws his weapon to settle a dispute over the bar nuts with the guy at the end of the bar.

Many have advocated here before for years, strap it on and conceal it and go.
Those who have posted about worrying about printing and comfort and clothing etc. Have all been to to relax and Conceal it and go on out.

We cant post about it, CoC, but sit there and think about it, when and where have you made that stop and went in and came back out?
Nope, not flaunting the law, but as discomfortable as the signs are, we do our best to live our lives as we have decided and move on!

Here, we cant post about it, but right after you read this......raise you hand if any of it is true for you!

#28 oohrah

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 260 posts
  • Joined: 11-May 15

Posted 12 September 2019 - 09:39 AM

We've had this discussion in Texas ad infinitum.  Like your ISP sign, our sign (prohibitng CC on the premises) is the 30.06, specifically described in that statute.  Some want to argue that the letters are not exactly one-inch, or it's the wrong size, etc. I think if you want to be your own lawyer and walk past what you think is a non-compliant sign, you take your chances.  You may beat the rap, but not the ride, so they say.

 

Personally, a business that goes to the trouble to try and post a 30.06 sign, even if non-compliant, is not going to get my money.

 

ETA:  There are also a lot of places that post "gun-buster" signs, mostly I think to keep the ignorant happy, when they know they have no affect on a license holder.


Edited by oohrah, 12 September 2019 - 09:40 AM.

USMC, Retired
Waco, Texas
Texas LTC
Illinois CCL
SASS 105352

#29 SycamoreRuger

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 291 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 16

Posted 13 September 2019 - 01:15 PM

My local McDonald’s has this sign on its door, I don’t know if it’s new or I just never noticed it before. The next-closest McDonald’s doesn’t have this sign. I don’t know if it’s a franchise or a corporate thing. I can’t help but wonder if franchise owners or corporate managers are testing the waters to see if they get any feedback one way or the other before they decide to put the compliant 4x6 signs on their doors.5278e892e26a748bf40a40c80554c91b.jpga423ab70f8545d8d099e068d2df82e42.jpg

#30 RS1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts
  • Joined: 15-January 19

Posted 13 September 2019 - 01:33 PM

I'd prefer "No WiFi" and "Free Guns" but eh.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users