Springfield Armory getting after it

[patriot1776]

Now lots of new weapons . 1911 TRP 10mm 5" and 6" long slide . I have the TRP in .45ACP and it is one fine pistol , may have to get it some company and a big brother .

[Buzzard]

I bought a 1953 Garand of the Springfield Armory variety last year at Princeton. It was to replace a Garand that I had sold and then realized the mistake I had made.

[tkroenlein]

Yes, those are interesting shooters. Especially that longslide.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DD123]

The MSRP's on those guns is disgusting.

 

Street price will still be higher than a Sig P220 in 10mm.

[ScopeEye]

Springfield Armory sold out IL

Never forget...

They will never see a dime from me.

FSA

[patriot1776]

The MSRP's on those guns is disgusting.

 

Street price will still be higher than a Sig P220 in 10mm.

I agree but you get what you pay for spend some time with a TRP and you appreciate . Look at how much more for a comparable Wilson Combat , Night Hawk , Ed Brown or Les Baer ?

[patriot1776]

Sig's I have owned and I still have an Elite 226 with all the bells and whistles but we are talking 9mm not 10mm and the price was north of $1,200.00 out the door .

[patriot1776]

The MSRP's on those guns is disgusting.

 

Street price will still be higher than a Sig P220 in 10mm.

 

Sig ? P-220 Legion $1,943.00 Alloy frame , 4.4 " barrel no thanks . Wonder how this will hold up to the 10mm ?

[DD123]

 

The MSRP's on those guns is disgusting.

 

Street price will still be higher than a Sig P220 in 10mm.

I agree but you get what you pay for spend some time with a TRP and you appreciate . Look at how much more for a comparable Wilson Combat , Night Hawk , Ed Brown or Les Baer ?

 

The TRP is probably one of the most overrated 1911's out there.

 

Why people worship the gun I'll have no idea. One of the most important components for reliability, the extractor, is the same junk extractor that most off the shelf 1911's use. Other than that, what do you get? Night sights, G10 grips?

 

It's a Springfield "Loaded" with $70 grips and front strap checkering.

 

People are far better off spending their money on the least expensive 1911 Springfield makes, buy an Aftec extractor, whatever G10 grips they like, their favorite sights, a magwell, and sending it to a gunsmith to install and tune the gun. What they'll get back will be less expensive and more reliable TRP.

 

ETA: my uncle collects 1911's because that's what he carried in the service until they switched to the M9. He owns one TRP, a couple of Wilson's, and a couple Nighthawk Customs, as well as a couple dozen others. I've shot all of his 1911's, and they're no better than my cheap 1911 that I had tuned by an expert gunsmith who added on some parts that I wanted. All quality guns to be sure, but the prices far exceed what you're getting.

[DD123]

 

The MSRP's on those guns is disgusting.

 

Street price will still be higher than a Sig P220 in 10mm.

 

Sig ? P-220 Legion $1,943.00 Alloy frame , 4.4 " barrel no thanks . Wonder how this will hold up to the 10mm ?

 

Really? You're going to choose the most expensive version of the P220?

 

One google search found the legion for $1699 on grabagun.

 

Are you asking how the Sig P220 will hold up to 10mm? I have over 3K rounds through a plastic Glock 29, running loads that are far hotter than most factory ammo. Seems to holding up well.

 

The most important part about this, and it's two things:

 

1. Springfield does not listen to their customers. Everyone has wanted an XDM in 10mm. They've been asking for one for years, ever since the XDM line came out. They're also way late to the party. There are several companies that already make 10mm 1911's, and with a few parts and some tuning, you'd be spending less than the TRP and wind up with a gun that's better than it.

 

2. Have we all forgotten about Springfield and dealer licensing? They won't see another dime of my money, even if they come out with the 10mm XDM. I've wanted their carry optic ready XDM, and was going to buy one and then their support of the dealer licensing bill convinced me to not buy one.

[patriot1776]

 

 

The MSRP's on those guns is disgusting.

 

Street price will still be higher than a Sig P220 in 10mm.

 

Sig ? P-220 Legion $1,943.00 Alloy frame , 4.4 " barrel no thanks . Wonder how this will hold up to the 10mm ?

 

Really? You're going to choose the most expensive version of the P220?

 

One google search found the legion for $1699 on grabagun.

 

Are you asking how the Sig P220 will hold up to 10mm? I have over 3K rounds through a plastic Glock 29, running loads that are far hotter than most factory ammo. Seems to holding up well.

 

The most important part about this, and it's two things:

 

1. Springfield does not listen to their customers. Everyone has wanted an XDM in 10mm. They've been asking for one for years, ever since the XDM line came out. They're also way late to the party. There are several companies that already make 10mm 1911's, and with a few parts and some tuning, you'd be spending less than the TRP and wind up with a gun that's better than it.

 

2. Have we all forgotten about Springfield and dealer licensing? They won't see another dime of my money, even if they come out with the 10mm XDM. I've wanted their carry optic ready XDM, and was going to buy one and then their support of the dealer licensing bill convinced me to not buy one.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said however you are mixing apples with oranges imho when using Wilson and Night Hawk in the same comparison or sentence with Springfield , thousands difference in price . You tout the Glock 10mm but I was talking about Sig . I am a Glock guy and own 6 including a Glock 20 . We could compare a Sig 220 to a Glock 20 ? Any price difference , capacity or mags you get with the purchase ? The Legion and TRP are both top models at there respective companies so a head to head comparison I thought would be fair not take the cheapest Sig and then the TRP . I decided long ago that I look at what I like along with price but I leave the companies position on politics , religion and other beliefs out of my purchase decision , but to each their own . I had a father that was in WWII and saw lots of action in France and Belgium . To his dying day he refused to buy products made by Germany , Japan or Italy he said they were the enemy . So when I visited him in his retirement community and his buddies, as he called them, how many products you think they owned , made by the enemy ?

[patriot1776]

Regarding cheap gun parts , how about all the MIM parts Glock has been using ? I for one replace all those with forged steel ones . Springfield and other 1911 makers have not gone that route yet .

[chicagoresident]

Regarding cheap gun parts , how about all the MIM parts Glock has been using ? I for one replace all those with forged steel ones . Springfield and other 1911 makers have not gone that route yet .

Kimber really takes the blame for giving MIM a bad name. They took 1911 parts without redesign and made them in metal injection molding. It failed horribly and I don't think their reputation ever recovered.

 

But, parts that are actually designed to be metal injection molded are pretty good. Im a Glock and Sig hater, but I haven't heard of any widespread failures of MIM parts and they are both extensively tested for duty use beyond a normal shooter.

 

I've heard even Wilson Combat uses metal injection molding on some of their 1911 parts. Stuff like a magazine release, safety switch, takedown/slide catch, trigger, slide spring retainer, etc. are usually fine if properly designed to be metal injection molded.

 

I'm the same way, I paid a lot for a 1911 without the metal injection molded parts. More for the perception of quality then reliability.

 

Almost guaranteed everybody's (myself included) EDC is mostly polymer and MIM. And none of us have any concerns over that.

[DD123]

 

 

 

The MSRP's on those guns is disgusting.

 

Street price will still be higher than a Sig P220 in 10mm.

Sig ? P-220 Legion $1,943.00 Alloy frame , 4.4 " barrel no thanks . Wonder how this will hold up to the 10mm ?

 

Really? You're going to choose the most expensive version of the P220?

 

One google search found the legion for $1699 on grabagun.

 

Are you asking how the Sig P220 will hold up to 10mm? I have over 3K rounds through a plastic Glock 29, running loads that are far hotter than most factory ammo. Seems to holding up well.

 

The most important part about this, and it's two things:

 

1. Springfield does not listen to their customers. Everyone has wanted an XDM in 10mm. They've been asking for one for years, ever since the XDM line came out. They're also way late to the party. There are several companies that already make 10mm 1911's, and with a few parts and some tuning, you'd be spending less than the TRP and wind up with a gun that's better than it.

 

2. Have we all forgotten about Springfield and dealer licensing? They won't see another dime of my money, even if they come out with the 10mm XDM. I've wanted their carry optic ready XDM, and was going to buy one and then their support of the dealer licensing bill convinced me to not buy one.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said however you are mixing apples with oranges imho when using Wilson and Night Hawk in the same comparison or sentence with Springfield , thousands difference in price . You tout the Glock 10mm but I was talking about Sig . I am a Glock guy and own 6 including a Glock 20 . We could compare a Sig 220 to a Glock 20 ? Any price difference , capacity or mags you get with the purchase ? The Legion and TRP are both top models at there respective companies so a head to head comparison I thought would be fair not take the cheapest Sig and then the TRP . I decided long ago that I look at what I like along with price but I leave the companies position on politics , religion and other beliefs out of my purchase decision , but to each their own . I had a father that was in WWII and saw lots of action in France and Belgium . To his dying day he refused to buy products made by Germany , Japan or Italy he said they were the enemy . So when I visited him in his retirement community and his buddies, as he called them, how many products you think they owned , made by the enemy ?

 

My reply was based on your statement regarding how the P220 would hold up to 10mm, and given it's a metal gun, I would say that it would perceivably hold up better than my plastic subcompact G29 which I've shot at least 3K stout handloads out of. That Glock is still running, and after detail stripping it, the parts look like new still. You made a comment based on the Sig's construction, wondering about the longevity, and I brought up the Glock because that would be more likely to fail under repeated firings of stout 10mm loads. That's why I made that comment.

 

What do you get when you buy something like a Wilson Combat, or a Nighthawk? You're paying a premium for what exactly? Are they using superior metals/metallurgy than Rock Island?

 

What you're paying for is a gun that's had some more detailed work done to it, by more competent assemblers. You're also paying for higher quality parts. You're also paying for the name in large part.

 

The problem with paying all that money, is that what you're getting is something that while better than a low end Springfield, or even the TRP, you're still getting a gun that wasn't fully tuned. Those Wilsons and Nighthawks are far better out of the box than a TRP, but they're still not as close to perfect as one can get. When my uncle first bought his Wilson's and Nighthawks, the triggers and the resistance of the slide when racking it, didn't feel really good.

 

The difference between getting any expensive "custom" gun is that they still need to be tuned further. Earlier this year I picked up an STI DVC Limited in 9mm. That's almost a $3K gun, but I managed to get it for a bit less. You would think that with a gun that costs that much, that out of the box it would be fantastic. It wasn't. The slide to frame fit was nice and tight like we should all want, but when racking the slide, it wasn't very smooth, and the trigger was about 3.5 lbs and felt gritty. I brought that gun to my buddy and gunsmith, we ordered some parts like an Aftec extractor, a posi lock mag catch/release, as well as some other minor parts. It cost me quite a bit to have it tuned, but what I got back was a gun that when you rack the slide, it feels like it rides on ball bearings. It also has absolutely no malfunctions with extraction, and the extractor barring a catastrophic failure, will never need to be tuned. The trigger is under 2 lbs, and putting my finger on the trigger pulls that 1/32" of slack out it, a crisp and clean break, and the reset is 1/16".

 

Shouldn't a gun that costs 3 grand come out of the box as perfect as perfect can be? STI is a "custom" shop, but like Wilson and Nighthawk, they still have to produce them in large quantities, so the focus on perfection just isn't there otherwise they'd probably cost 5K or more.

 

The value of having a gun tuned by someone who knows what they're doing is far better than buying something that's supposed to be excellent, but isn't. I have a Springfield Loaded that I wanted to use in USPSA. The gun was bone stock, and had absolutely nothing done to it other than putting about 1500 rounds or so through it. I bought some parts...Aftec extractor, posi lock mag release, new sights, new grips, magwell, and gave that to the gunsmith I mentioned, and the gun now, even with almost all the rest of the parts being the cheap ones that came with it...trigger, sear, etc.., except for those I've mentioned, and if I handed it to you, you'd swear it was a custom gun. It technically is now that I've had that work done to it, but it's a middle of the road offering from Springfield.

 

As far as the politics behind making or not making a decision to purchase from the company, that's up to you. I'd rather not give my money to a company that tried to throw everyone in Illinois under the bus, except for themselves, and then showed their motivations by continual press releases expressing shock at their lobbyist, stating things that were false, called out by the public, and then having to keep releasing press releases clarifying what they meant. I'd rather not support a company that only looks out for themselves, and by their own actions seems to support the 2A only as long as it continues to be profitable for them. Once that profit margin is in jeopardy, they throw 2A under the bus as they did through their lobbyist. 2A is too important to me to ignore that.

[DD123]

The whole point of my posts, is that the price of these offerings from Springfield are insane for what you're getting.

 

You can pick up something like this for $750 MSRP, so probably $600-650: http://armscor.com/files/51991---Rock-Ultra-FS.jpg

 

It already comes with some nice G10 grips that I probably wouldn't change.

 

Pick up an Aftec extractor, a posi lock, and a magwell - $200-240.

 

Get the gun tuned by someone who's extremely good with 1911's. Even if that costs $500-600 (not saying it does), you're below the cost of the TRP, with a gun that feels like it costs a lot more than the TRP.

 

Sure you don't get the TRP name on the gun, but I'd rather have something that has been highly tuned for both reliability and function, than something that still needs to have a lot of that done to it.

 

Springfield will sell a bunch of these no doubt. I believe much of the reason for that is so that people can say that they have a TRP because that's much cooler to tell people than you have a Rock Island that functions far better than the TRP does out of the box.

 

If you don't care about Springfield and the whole political stuff above, and have the money, buy the TRP and get in touch with an expert gunsmith and have that tuned. It'll cost a lot more, but you'll have the TRP name, along with some higher quality parts.

 

With all things being equal, you can take both guns, have them tuned with the parts I've mentioned, and the TRP will be better quality due to the parts it already comes with, and the addition of the few I've mentioned, along with tuning them all. It's definitely going to cost way more, but that's just being honest. The Rock Island doesn't come with the same quality parts that the TRP comes with, and honestly you probably wouldn't get any significant improvements upgrading those parts on the Rock Island so changing them would be pointless.

[chicagoresident]

Springfield does have a custom shop, I assume they employ some quality builders. In the past they had Les Baer and some other guys that went on to become high end custom 1911 builders.

 

I doubt at the TRP price point it touches the same custom shop build as say the FBI professional model.

 

Draw your own conclusions on pricepoint. I didnt think the TRP Operators gave a great value when compared to slightly more expensive guns in the pricepoint when I was in the market, but I don't think the price is entirely out of line for a 1911.

 

So much of value in 1911s in general is in the eyes of the purchaser and the marketing department.

 

Why does every gun maker make 1911's? They're profitable, because so much of the value is determined by mysticism and fanboyism. Mass produced gets sold as "custom", and custom uses what we'd perceive as lower quality overseas or plain old colt forged parts with a lot of finishing, custom cutting, and custom selected parts. Often times those custom selected parts are contract manufacturered or the in house made ones are sold to other companies and end up in 1911s all over the spectrum in price.

 

But at the end of the day there are very few bad 1911s out there. Because at the end of the day the 1911 was never that good (goes and hides from the fanboys wrath).

[DD123]

Springfield does have a custom shop, I assume they employ some quality builders. In the past they had Les Baer and some other guys that went on to become high end custom 1911 builders.

 

I doubt at the TRP price point it touches the same custom shop build as say the FBI professional model.

 

Draw your own conclusions on pricepoint. I didnt think the TRP Operators gave a great value when compared to slightly more expensive guns in the pricepoint when I was in the market, but I don't think the price is entirely out of line for a 1911.

 

So much of value in 1911s in general is in the eyes of the purchaser and the marketing department.

 

Why does every gun maker make 1911's? They're profitable, because so much of the value is determined by mysticism and fanboyism. Mass produced gets sold as "custom", and custom uses what we'd perceive as lower quality overseas or plain old colt forged parts with a lot of finishing, custom cutting, and custom selected parts. Often times those custom selected parts are contract manufacturered or the in house made ones are sold to other companies and end up in 1911s all over the spectrum in price.

 

But at the end of the day there are very few bad 1911s out there. Because at the end of the day the 1911 was never that good (goes and hides from the fanboys wrath).

Personally I'm not a 1911 fanboy. They're good guns, like nearly all other platforms on the market today.

 

What I do like about them, is the grip angle and the controls. I can holster any 1911, and coming right out of the holster, after joining my hands, wherever my press out ends, is right on target with the sights aligned without any adjustments needed. I can't say the same for the Glock grip angle because that requires a correction to my sight alignment. I'm certainly not "dissing" Glocks, seeing as I own a couple, but I'm not the biggest fan of the grip angle on them.

 

I think the one design flaw of the 1911 is the extractor. If it's tuned, it works great, until you have a case that slips off of it, and then have to do a malfunction clearance forcing the extractor back over the case rim, detuning it. That Aftec extractor I keep mentioning solves that because it's always in tune. You can clear as many malfunctions as you want with it, and it will stay the same. Every 1911 owner should have one installed even if they haven't experienced their extractor getting detuned.

 

As far as "never being that good", I think it's longevity dispels that. It is a design that's stood the test of time. Many people don't know this, but if your 1911 doesn't have a two piece guide rod, and you happen to lose the plug for the recoil spring, you can toss in a 45 acp casing and get right back into the fight. Not a permanent solution, but it just shows how well thought out the gun was.

[yurimodin]

TRP looks cool but I'm not giving SA any money to fight against my rights with

[chicagoresident]

I like my 1911, it's a fun range toy. And as a cavalry weapon it's well designed. No denying the history and the fact the JMB was a legend of a firearms designer.

 

But when the sponsorship dollars start flowing competition shooters can achieve the same results with gamefied Glock and M&P's.

 

I wouldn't say the design of the 1911 is outdated from a mechanical standpoint. If you look at arms designs from WWI and slightly before and after the small arms industry reached its peak in terms of mechanical complexity. Everything from that point on was just a refinement of those ideas. I would say the high power was probably more influential on modern firearms, but doesn't have the same following because everything that followed was a slow evolution.

 

The one thing that has radically improved are materials and manufacturing processes. Which have also in effect drastically improved ammo. Which is why none of us carry 1911's loaded with 45acp ball ammo. This is why judged by today's standards the 1911 is not that good. And I judge the new Springfield Armory trp 10mm as a 1911 because it's not a double stack like a 2011, which seems pretty stupid to me.

 

And it's also why pro shooters can start with a cheaper platform and do just as well (although in the super competitive classes they do probably dump similar amount of money into aftermarket and fitted parts on plastic fantastics.

 

It's also those same new manufacturing process, when applied to 1911's make them terrible guns. CNC and EDM are great on 1911s but it's usually reserved for the high end stuff. At the low end you either have extensive metal injection molding where it shouldn't be (like on extractors), overseas hand fitting, loose tolerances, or a combination of all three to varying degrees of success. And there are a lot of low end 1911s sold as high end through marketing efforts with varying degrees of success.

[DD123]

I like my 1911, it's a fun range toy. And as a cavalry weapon it's well designed. No denying the history and the fact the JMB was a legend of a firearms designer.

But when the sponsorship dollars start flowing competition shooters can achieve the same results with gamefied Glock and M&P's.

I wouldn't say the design of the 1911 is outdated from a mechanical standpoint. If you look at arms designs from WWI and slightly before and after the small arms industry reached its peak in terms of mechanical complexity. Everything from that point on was just a refinement of those ideas. I would say the high power was probably more influential on modern firearms, but doesn't have the same following because everything that followed was a slow evolution.

The one thing that has radically improved are materials and manufacturing processes. Which have also in effect drastically improved ammo. Which is why none of us carry 1911's loaded with 45acp ball ammo. This is why judged by today's standards the 1911 is not that good. And I judge the new Springfield Armory trp 10mm as a 1911 because it's not a double stack like a 2011, which seems pretty stupid to me.

And it's also why pro shooters can start with a cheaper platform and do just as well (although in the super competitive classes they do probably dump similar amount of money into aftermarket and fitted parts on plastic fantastics.

It's also those same new manufacturing process, when applied to 1911's make them terrible guns. CNC and EDM are great on 1911s but it's usually reserved for the high end stuff. At the low end you either have extensive metal injection molding where it shouldn't be (like on extractors), overseas hand fitting, loose tolerances, or a combination of all three to varying degrees of success. And there are a lot of low end 1911s sold as high end through marketing efforts with varying degrees of success.

 

The pros using tupperware guns, are paid by the Tupperware gun manufacturers to use them. Regardless of how you trick one out, they still can’t keep up with a 2011. 2011’s are designed to race right out of the gate, and the weight of them makes it far easier to shoot fast with, especially on split times and accuracy at speed. You’d see far more pros using Tupperware guns even without sponsorships if you could get one close to a 2011, whereas many pro shooters choose to shoot a 2011 even without a sponsorship. I have a raced up XDM 5.25. It’s not even remotely in the same category as my STI.

[yurimodin]

The pros using tupperware guns, are paid by the Tupperware gun manufacturers to use them. Regardless of how you trick one out, they still can’t keep up with a 2011. 2011’s are designed to race right out of the gate, and the weight of them makes it far easier to shoot fast with, especially on split times and accuracy at speed. You’d see far more pros using Tupperware guns even without sponsorships if you could get one close to a 2011, whereas many pro shooters choose to shoot a 2011 even without a sponsorship. I have a raced up XDM 5.25. It’s not even remotely in the same category as my STI.

 

me personally I have been itching to get one of these

http://armscor.com/firearms/rock-series/rock-ultra-fs-hc-10mm/

[DD123]

 

The pros using tupperware guns, are paid by the Tupperware gun manufacturers to use them. Regardless of how you trick one out, they still can’t keep up with a 2011. 2011’s are designed to race right out of the gate, and the weight of them makes it far easier to shoot fast with, especially on split times and accuracy at speed. You’d see far more pros using Tupperware guns even without sponsorships if you could get one close to a 2011, whereas many pro shooters choose to shoot a 2011 even without a sponsorship. I have a raced up XDM 5.25. It’s not even remotely in the same category as my STI.

 

me personally I have been itching to get one of these

http://armscor.com/firearms/rock-series/rock-ultra-fs-hc-10mm/

 

I held one that was being worked on by my buddy and gunsmith. Not the 10mm, but a similarly sized one in 45. They're crazy heavy and built like tanks. I liked it. I'm sure the 10mm is built the same. The one I handled had a full tune up done to it, so unfortunately I didn't get to see it as it comes new.