Patriots & Tyrants Posted June 29, 2015 at 05:48 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 05:48 PM http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lake-county-news-sun/news/ct-lns-zion-gun-shop-st-0630-20150629-story.html A Zion gun store might lose its Federal Firearms License with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in connection with allegations that 1st Class Firearms owner Craig Bricco has failed to address clerical errors in firearm purchases.At the heart of the revocation issue is what the bureau considers an excessive number of mistakes on the six-page ATF form 4473, which is required of the buyer for every sale of a weapon. Bricco told the News-Sun that he takes responsibility for the mistakes made, but feels that 42 clerical errors in over 1,500 forms, over a 12-month period going back to early 2014, is hardly excessive. Bricco stressed he's always tried to improve on mistakes, but that past history with the bureau has probably worked against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gLockedandLoaded Posted June 29, 2015 at 05:53 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 05:53 PM I don't think the 4473 is that complicated. Although I'm not an FFL. I know it's a heavily regulated business. But I feel like all businesses are becoming heavily regulated in the modern day USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots & Tyrants Posted June 29, 2015 at 05:55 PM Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 05:55 PM I don't think the 4473 is that complicated. Although I'm not an FFL. I know it's a heavily regulated business. But I feel like all businesses are becoming heavily regulated in the modern day USA I am not an FFL either but it seems to be very paperwork intensive. The FFL I like to use got some real heck during his inspection because they found two instances out of about 500 transfers where he did not have "both" dates on the form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTX63 Posted June 29, 2015 at 06:35 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 06:35 PM I've had stores spin the form around on the counter and point out things like both dates, that illinois was abbreviated or not capitalized, etc. I guess my question goes back to how many people are prosecuted for knowingly filing false 4473s? Last time I checked, it was very, very few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hap Posted June 29, 2015 at 06:49 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 06:49 PM I've only dealt with one store which uses the electronic 4473 so I'm not too familiar with it but I've always wondered why it's not more commonly used. Does it do a good job of catching the most common errors? Any idea what sorts of things sneak through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlJ Posted June 29, 2015 at 06:50 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 06:50 PM I got a letter recently from cabelas to make a correction on my form.One of the dates I put was 1 day off.Pretty easy, unintentional mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet Observer Posted June 29, 2015 at 07:19 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 07:19 PM Here are more details and history. http://localnews7.com/local-and-state/atf-moves-to-shut-down-zion-gun-store-over-paperwork-errors-h191737.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTX63 Posted June 29, 2015 at 07:30 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 07:30 PM Quote from the above link "The most recent inspection at 1st Class Firearms was earlier this year.Bricco showed the News-Sun one completed form from a store patron that was flagged by ATF inspectors. The form had a middle initial "P" in the box where a full middle name is required. Bricco said other errors included "check boxes missed, check date entered one day off, customers putting PO Box for address." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec4 Posted June 29, 2015 at 08:29 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 08:29 PM This form should be eliminated today. Its disgusting to any freedom loving American. I'm also disgusted with the way the govt harasses these dealers. Rant off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScopeEye Posted June 29, 2015 at 09:19 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 09:19 PM I've made some purchases thereAlthough I don't much care for Craig, he's big supporter for us, Hope he and his shop survives GTFO ATF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacticalVideo Posted June 29, 2015 at 11:56 PM Share Posted June 29, 2015 at 11:56 PM As an FFL, the forms are not that hard to maintain correctly as long as you fully complete the 4473 at the same time the transfer is made! If you wait to finalize the 4473 in batches days apart from the actual transfer, I can see where errors would occur. The only real PIA for FFL's is the duplication of information between the 4473 and the bound book. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerze2387 Posted June 30, 2015 at 12:07 AM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 12:07 AM ive purchased from there before. In fact bought my first gun there. Always liked craig and his nephew. They were always nice to me and were a good family owned and run business. prices were high but any brick and mortar is. if they were closer i would have purchased from them more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getzapped Posted June 30, 2015 at 02:32 AM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 02:32 AM The problem with the atf is they would rather waste time trying to shut a legitimate business that makes an honest clerical mistake on a ridiculous form than they would they would catch criminals. Question 10a 13 14 are the most commonly missed on the form. And they are absolutely FN stupid question. 10a hispanic or non. But right next to that in 10b ask your race. Both have to be check. Q 13 state of residence. Really redundant. You answer this question at the top of then amd then it I is documented in the id section the ffl fills out. Q 14 what country do you reside. Really? I have called atf on straw purchasw that i had documentation on. Proof of the straw purchase. No one cared. I had 2 guns purchased and then people claimed it was fraud that they didn't make the purchase. And guess what, i had them on camera and their ids and their signatures. Nobody gave a $#^&. It just about as useless as a govt agency can get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbacs Posted June 30, 2015 at 02:48 AM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 02:48 AM I've only purchased where the computer imputed form is used.I and my wife have been stopped by the computer when something is entered incorrectly.We both attempted to use a "middle name" letter only, it stops you and let's you know to use a FULL middle name.It catches dates also, unchecked boxes too. Seems that this would be the way to go, digital...... Just my $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt guy Posted June 30, 2015 at 02:54 AM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 02:54 AM Funny because I have purchased from Craig over the past couple years and they do use the computerized form. You fill it out on their laptop and you are done. Its pretty hard to screw up. The ATF must have an agenda here. This is a good shop. He is a die hard Colt guy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD123 Posted June 30, 2015 at 03:29 AM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 03:29 AM The ATF are a bunch of jack booted, morons. I'm surprised their uniform doesn't involve a brown shirt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getzapped Posted June 30, 2015 at 03:41 AM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 03:41 AM Pros and cons to the computer form. Right now you cant download it because the atf pulled it from the site. Dont know why, my guess is there is an error in it. With computer form it still has to be printed and filed, which means my inl and paper. You can get all the forms free from the atf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hap Posted June 30, 2015 at 03:53 AM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 03:53 AM Are you talking about the material at https://www.atf.gov/firearms/applications-eform-4473-download? If so the download link is still there. It installs and runs, sort of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobPistol Posted June 30, 2015 at 10:43 AM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 10:43 AM Don't worry! The ATF is working on investigating 2,000 guns to Mexico....in 7....6....5....4....decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getzapped Posted June 30, 2015 at 12:09 PM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 12:09 PM Are you talking about the material at https://www.atf.gov/firearms/applications-eform-4473-download? If so the download link is still there. It installs and runs, sort of. Thats it. It must be back on the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyP Posted June 30, 2015 at 12:28 PM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 12:28 PM Every time I've bought a firearm the forms have been double and triple checked when making the purchase and again when making the pickup. I would presume that learning how to correctly fill out the 4473 is one of the first things an FFL learns and teaches their sales staff? I recall an old adage that "There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over." Attention to detail is 'kinda' important when dealing with firearms. I cannot honestly fault the ATFE for requiring compliance with a relatively simple process. I don't disagree that it can be a pain in the posterior, but it comes with the territory in FFL land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTX63 Posted June 30, 2015 at 12:48 PM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 12:48 PM I don't disagree that FFL guys need to cross their t's and dot the i's. I wonder at the time and resources spent doing this vs the time and resources spent by ATF to go after inner city dealers with caches of weapons, gun running across our southern borders, and following thru on the prosecutions of all who violate the laws, not just the slob behind the counter. It's like knocking the teenager off his bike and counting the grains of weed in his coat pocket while the syndicate guy is backing his cargo van full of coke into the loading dock across the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hap Posted June 30, 2015 at 01:16 PM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 01:16 PM Are you talking about the material at https://www.atf.gov/firearms/applications-eform-4473-download? If so the download link is still there. It installs and runs, sort of.Thats it. It must be back on the site. I couldn't get it to work, however. Windows 7 Pro 64-bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT1 Posted June 30, 2015 at 07:05 PM Share Posted June 30, 2015 at 07:05 PM Every time I've bought a firearm the forms have been double and triple checked when making the purchase and again when making the pickup. I would presume that learning how to correctly fill out the 4473 is one of the first things an FFL learns and teaches their sales staff? I recall an old adage that "There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over." Attention to detail is 'kinda' important when dealing with firearms. I cannot honestly fault the ATFE for requiring compliance with a relatively simple process. I don't disagree that it can be a pain in the posterior, but it comes with the territory in FFL land. My experience has been the same. I agree with everything you said. 1 mistake out of 100 is bad. 42 out of 1500 means something is wrong in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous too Posted July 1, 2015 at 12:00 AM Share Posted July 1, 2015 at 12:00 AM Every time I've bought a firearm the forms have been double and triple checked when making the purchase and again when making the pickup. I would presume that learning how to correctly fill out the 4473 is one of the first things an FFL learns and teaches their sales staff? It has to be done that way because the ATF is sooo picky. Tough for the small guys with one employee. Local guy I don't do business with almost lost his FFL last year because of so many mistakes on the 4473, but then he has nobody to check and double check the form for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted July 1, 2015 at 01:11 PM Share Posted July 1, 2015 at 01:11 PM The problem with the atf is they would rather waste time trying to shut a legitimate business that makes an honest clerical mistake on a ridiculous form than they would they would catch criminals. Question 10a 13 14 are the most commonly missed on the form. And they are absolutely FN stupid question. 10a hispanic or non. But right next to that in 10b ask your race. Both have to be check. Q 13 state of residence. Really redundant. You answer this question at the top of then amd then it I is documented in the id section the ffl fills out. Q 14 what country do you reside. Really? I have called atf on straw purchasw that i had documentation on. Proof of the straw purchase. No one cared. I had 2 guns purchased and then people claimed it was fraud that they didn't make the purchase. And guess what, i had them on camera and their ids and their signatures. Nobody gave a $#^&. It just about as useless as a govt agency can get! Well, Q10 asks for ethnicity and race, Q13 asks for your official State of residence (which can be different than your current residence, of course), and Q14 asks for your citizenship. Nothing redundant about any of them. Sounds like the problem with this store is they've been making the same mistakes over and over and haven't taken steps to correct them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POAT54 Posted July 1, 2015 at 05:15 PM Share Posted July 1, 2015 at 05:15 PM Sounds like the problem with this store is they've been making the same mistakes over and over and haven't taken steps to correct them. Any business that has more than 2% errors on paperwork should be shut down? that 42 clerical errors in over 1,500 forms, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted July 1, 2015 at 05:56 PM Share Posted July 1, 2015 at 05:56 PM Sounds like the problem with this store is they've been making the same mistakes over and over and haven't taken steps to correct them. Any business that has more than 2% errors on paperwork should be shut down? Would you do business with a bank that made errors on 3% of your transactions? He isn't being shut down because he made errors. He's being shut down because he continues to make the same errors and doesn't seem to be willing to do anything about it. We're talking about filling in forms. This isn't rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POAT54 Posted July 1, 2015 at 08:00 PM Share Posted July 1, 2015 at 08:00 PM How many errors vs sales in the previous year(s)? How many people have their income tax refunds sent to criminals? How many times have heard or seen it reported of medical services being billed wrongfully, or services billed incorrectly, 36 hours of oxygen per day. Someone did not spell out their full middle name, close his business for not catching. Allow how many guns give to cartels in Mexico, continue on, nothing to see here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar8000 Posted July 2, 2015 at 11:14 PM Share Posted July 2, 2015 at 11:14 PM The problem with the atf is they would rather waste time trying to shut a legitimate business that makes an honest clerical mistake on a ridiculous form than they would they would catch criminals. Question 10a 13 14 are the most commonly missed on the form. And they are absolutely FN stupid question. 10a hispanic or non. But right next to that in 10b ask your race. Both have to be check. Q 13 state of residence. Really redundant. You answer this question at the top of then amd then it I is documented in the id section the ffl fills out. Q 14 what country do you reside. Really? I have called atf on straw purchasw that i had documentation on. Proof of the straw purchase. No one cared. I had 2 guns purchased and then people claimed it was fraud that they didn't make the purchase. And guess what, i had them on camera and their ids and their signatures. Nobody gave a $#^&. It just about as useless as a govt agency can get! 10a is the MOST common that is missed. However, the most ****** up question is #12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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