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#31 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:31 AM

I'll mention this again, because it is important enough to make me decide to get TWO insurances, CCWSafe and USCCA, to make sure I am covered in every situation.

 

CCWSafe is, in my opinion, the most effective and well-thought out of the self-defense insurance carriers. I've spoken at length with them about their captured insurance company LE model as well as their successful defense cases. They are run by people who are very good at what they do and they offer the broadest of coverages with essentially the highest limits (often none depending on the type of legal action).

 

USCCA is very good, as well, although they have some civil liability coverage caps and such that top out at about $2 million.

 

However, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, is the fact that USCCA covers defensive shootings in CMHCFZ (Criminal Murder of Helpless Citizens Facilitation Zone) and CCWSafe does not. They rationalize it as they only cover where it is legal to carry, even if it is necessary or prudent to carry in a GFZ, or if one is doing so as a means of civil disobedience.

 

I'm fine with paying about $1,000 total ($996, actually) to be covered in all situations, because it just means a bit less ammo to shoot but peace of mind.

 

However, if CCWSafe covered self-defense with firearms and weapons in places where idiotic laws prohibit effective self-protection, they would be hands-down the top choice.


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 24 April 2019 - 12:32 AM.

"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

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#32 Bubbacs

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 08:37 AM

Deleted
Found links

Edited by Bubbacs, 24 April 2019 - 08:55 AM.


#33 jawman

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 02:38 PM

@ChicagoRonin70 where does it say that CCW Safe does not cover you if the defense occurs in a GFZ? I believe they have said in their podcast that that is not true and they are not going to refuse to cover a member in those situations. Can you point us to where it says otherwise? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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#34 seanc

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 03:01 PM

From the CCW Safe website describing plans-
"
The Primary member will be covered (up to 500k bond) for all legal use of force responses to life threatening attacks at your home, your vehicle and any place it is legal to carry in public or on premises in which possession of a firearm is not illegal (all legal weapons covered)."

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#35 Euler

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 03:28 PM

From the CCW Safe website describing plans-
"The Primary member will be covered (up to 500k bond) for all legal use of force responses to life threatening attacks at your home, your vehicle and any place it is legal to carry in public or on premises in which possession of a firearm is not illegal (all legal weapons covered)."


Yup, so you are not covered where possession of a firearm is illegal. For example, if you FOID carry in a posted business or on public transport (non-Amtrak), it's legal, but as soon as you uncase and load your weapon, it's illegal. Between a podcast and the written terms and conditions of coverage, the podcast is meaningless.
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#36 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 07:31 PM

@ChicagoRonin70 where does it say that CCW Safe does not cover you if the defense occurs in a GFZ? I believe they have said in their podcast that that is not true and they are not going to refuse to cover a member in those situations. Can you point us to where it says otherwise? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I actually also spoke with someone from CCWSafe a couple of years back and asked about if I were transporting my firearm on public transportation, and was in a situation where I was forced to take the firearm out and use it for self-defense, as well as asked if I happened to be in a place where concealed carry was banned, and while carrying concealed I was forced to draw my firearm and shoot an attacker.

 

I was told that CCWSafe would consider covering me and would do whatever they could to help, but that there was a strong possibility that my having a loaded firearm in a prohibited place, regardless of the reason I needed to use it, would likely prevent their insurance from covering my defense.


"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

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#37 lockman

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 06:01 AM

You would have more than just a state law applicable here. There would be legal precedent that would have to be applied. You would not be technically violating the concealed carry act considering the firearm would not be concealed, you would be removing an unloaded gun and loading it. The doctrine of necessity certainly would apply. If exercising your fundamental right to self-defense even though technically prohibited under state law is required to save your life, thereâs generally no prosecution for violating that statute. ^ this ***

Edited by lockman, 15 May 2019 - 06:02 AM.

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#38 Euler

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 04:08 PM

... You would not be technically violating the concealed carry act considering the firearm would not be concealed, you would be removing an unloaded gun and loading it. The doctrine of necessity certainly would apply. ...


I'm hesitant to trust a defense founded on the doctrine of necessity, however much Massad Ayoob appears to favor it. Most successful defenses seem to me to be based on statutory law. It's a worthwhile point that loading an unloaded weapon isn't a violation of any Illinois law if the weapon is used in an otherwise justified self-defense.

I guess the question is whether the insurance sees it that way and agrees to coverage.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#39 jawman

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 05:34 PM

I'll mention this again, because it is important enough to make me decide to get TWO insurances, CCWSafe and USCCA, to make sure I am covered in every situation.

 

CCWSafe is, in my opinion, the most effective and well-thought out of the self-defense insurance carriers. I've spoken at length with them about their captured insurance company LE model as well as their successful defense cases. They are run by people who are very good at what they do and they offer the broadest of coverages with essentially the highest limits (often none depending on the type of legal action).

 

USCCA is very good, as well, although they have some civil liability coverage caps and such that top out at about $2 million.

 

However, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, is the fact that USCCA covers defensive shootings in CMHCFZ (Criminal Murder of Helpless Citizens Facilitation Zone) and CCWSafe does not. They rationalize it as they only cover where it is legal to carry, even if it is necessary or prudent to carry in a GFZ, or if one is doing so as a means of civil disobedience.

 

I'm fine with paying about $1,000 total ($996, actually) to be covered in all situations, because it just means a bit less ammo to shoot but peace of mind.

 

However, if CCWSafe covered self-defense with firearms and weapons in places where idiotic laws prohibit effective self-protection, they would be hands-down the top choice.

 

@ChicagoRonin70, it appears you are correct. CCW Safe will not cover you if you are carrying in a GFZ or a place that is posted. They mentioned this on their podcast and I remember them saying that, even if you are carrying in a GFZ and had to use your firearm in self defense, that they would look at the total circumstance and would not entirely rule out coverage. That is very misleading and unethical for them to say that since their very own website says that's not true.
 
I tend to agree with you that "if CCW Safe covered self-defense with firearms and weapons in places where idiotic laws prohibit effective self-protection, they would be hands-down the top choice."
 
So which plan do you have with USCCA? And where does USCCA say that they will still provide coverage in GFZ?
 
Below is from the CCW Safe FAQ page where they explicitly call this out that they will not cover you (click the image to expand to full size):
 
 
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Edited by jawman, 19 May 2019 - 05:39 PM.

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#40 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 12:34 AM

 

I'll mention this again, because it is important enough to make me decide to get TWO insurances, CCWSafe and USCCA, to make sure I am covered in every situation.

 

CCWSafe is, in my opinion, the most effective and well-thought out of the self-defense insurance carriers. I've spoken at length with them about their captured insurance company LE model as well as their successful defense cases. They are run by people who are very good at what they do and they offer the broadest of coverages with essentially the highest limits (often none depending on the type of legal action).

 

USCCA is very good, as well, although they have some civil liability coverage caps and such that top out at about $2 million.

 

However, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, is the fact that USCCA covers defensive shootings in CMHCFZ (Criminal Murder of Helpless Citizens Facilitation Zone) and CCWSafe does not. They rationalize it as they only cover where it is legal to carry, even if it is necessary or prudent to carry in a GFZ, or if one is doing so as a means of civil disobedience.

 

I'm fine with paying about $1,000 total ($996, actually) to be covered in all situations, because it just means a bit less ammo to shoot but peace of mind.

 

However, if CCWSafe covered self-defense with firearms and weapons in places where idiotic laws prohibit effective self-protection, they would be hands-down the top choice.

 

@ChicagoRonin70, it appears you are correct. CCW Safe will not cover you if you are carrying in a GFZ or a place that is posted. They mentioned this on their podcast and I remember them saying that, even if you are carrying in a GFZ and had to use your firearm in self defense, that they would look at the total circumstance and would not entirely rule out coverage. That is very misleading and unethical for them to say that since their very own website says that's not true.
 
I tend to agree with you that "if CCW Safe covered self-defense with firearms and weapons in places where idiotic laws prohibit effective self-protection, they would be hands-down the top choice."
 
So which plan do you have with USCCA? And where does USCCA say that they will still provide coverage in GFZ?
 
Below is from the CCW Safe FAQ page where they explicitly call this out that they will not cover you (click the image to expand to full size):
 

 

I actually spoke with someone from the USCCA regarding coverage in Unarmed Citizen Murder Facilitation Zones and was told that they do, in fact cover defensive firearm uses in such places. I also saw it somewhere on their website at some point, but I can't recall where.

 

However, the Virginia Citizens Defense League did a survey comparison of the various self-defense insurance plans, and put them in this PDF:

 

https://vcdl.org/res..._Comparison.pdf

 

In it, under the question . . .

 

Q: Is the member covered anywhere they can legally be?

 

. . . the USCCA responded . . .

 

A: Yes. The intent of the policy is to provide legal and financial backing in the event a member is involved in an act of self-defense with a legally possessed weapon of opportunity regardless of any violation of a concealed carry or similar law.

 

Under the question . . .

 

Q: Are there any restrictions on where coverage is offered?

 

. . . the USCCA responded . . .

 

A: The intent of the policy is to provide legal and financial backing in the event a member is involved in an act of self-defense with a legally possessed weapon of opportunity regardless of any violaon of a concealed carry or similar law. The USCCA advocates for members to know the gun laws of each specific state, reciprocity with your permit or permits to carry, and to be responsibly armed Americans. The membership benefits will only cover act of self-defense incidents.

 

That is consistent with what I was told in my phone conversation with a representative of the USCCA regarding coverage in Unarmed Citizen Murder Facilitation Zones, so I expect that it is written down somewhere as well.

 

I will be renewing my self-defense insurances and upgrading to the top plans in both CCWSafe and USCCA, with the maximum coverage provided by both companies. 


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 20 May 2019 - 12:38 AM.

"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

 InX89li.jpg
 

 
 
 
 


#41 jawman

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 08:29 PM

Thanks. It also states that in their Membership Agreement, as shown below. This is HUGE. I may be joining USCCA very soon. I commend them for this.

 

MKXhV9B.png


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#42 jawman

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:38 AM

ChicagoRonin70, does USCCA have a referral link? If so, can you PM me your link and your name so I can get you the credit for referring me?


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#43 InterestedBystander

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:40 PM

programs compared

https://www.conceale...grams-compared/
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#44 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 06:31 PM

ChicagoRonin70, does USCCA have a referral link? If so, can you PM me your link and your name so I can get you the credit for referring me?

 

 

I don't know if they have a referral link. When I renew my policies, I'll see if they send me one.


"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

 InX89li.jpg
 

 
 
 
 


#45 Glock23

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 06:40 PM


ChicagoRonin70, does USCCA have a referral link? If so, can you PM me your link and your name so I can get you the credit for referring me?


 
 
I don't know if they have a referral link. When I renew my policies, I'll see if they send me one.

I don't recall getting a referral link... just a notice that my policy would be renewing soon.
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#46 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 06:42 PM

 

ChicagoRonin70, does USCCA have a referral link? If so, can you PM me your link and your name so I can get you the credit for referring me?


 
 
I don't know if they have a referral link. When I renew my policies, I'll see if they send me one.

I don't recall getting a referral link... just a notice that my policy would be renewing soon.

 

 

I'm going to be upgrading my policies, so maybe they will send me one when I do that. If not, I'll also ask them to send me one, if such a thing exists.


"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

 InX89li.jpg
 

 
 
 
 


#47 InterestedBystander

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 06:45 PM

I read previously uscca offers a gift ($100 value) to both the member and the referee but I cant find the info at the moment.
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#48 Craigcelia

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 07:37 PM

There is a referral link. You have to sign into your account, its on your dashboard. But, you should also call them to get your gifts...often times they don't send it unless you call and remind them you referred a friend. Also you will need the friends name. I've done it a few times, I always choose the beautiful Kershaw knife. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Edited by Craigcelia, 28 May 2019 - 07:38 PM.

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#49 vito

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:15 AM

I looked at everything on the market when I first considered this whole issue, and ended up going with CCW Safe. Essentially I was looking not for liability insurance, but for legal defense insurance in case I was ever involved in a self defense shooting.The only real downside (but it is a big one) is that CCW Safe will not defend you if your shooting took place somewhere where concealed carry was not lawful, and this is something that USCCA covers you (as I understand it). But the cost of USCCA is much, much higher. I pay $99 a year as a former military member for my CW Safe membership, whereas the lowest level plan with USCCA is $22/month or $264 a year. Is the extra protection worth paying more than double what I pay now? I'm still thinking about it but will have to make a decision no later than a month from now when my CCS Safe membership will automatically renew. I'd like to hear from others than might have made the switch or are considering switching from CCW Safe to USCCA. 


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#50 Mr. Fife

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:30 AM

I use CCW Safe. It would be nice to have one place to compare all plans, all options, all prices. Not just some simple chart of cherry picked information.

The plans differ based on your needs. A person with a home and automobiles, boats, other toys, etc. will have different insurance needs than someone who rents and uses public transportation, for example.

.

Edited by Mr. Fife, 30 May 2019 - 08:31 AM.

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#51 jawman

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 08:34 AM

It would be nice, but not really possible because like you said, it differs from person to person based on their individual needs. There is no one size fits everyone so that's why a simple chart is just the starting point. You need to sit down and spend a day combing through all of the details of each plan and provider and determine what's best for you personally. I spent an entire day going through everything to determine what fits me best. I ended up with CCW Safe as well, and later added on USCCA.

Edited by jawman, 30 May 2019 - 08:35 AM.

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#52 vito

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 09:27 AM

It would be nice, but not really possible because like you said, it differs from person to person based on their individual needs. There is no one size fits everyone so that's why a simple chart is just the starting point. You need to sit down and spend a day combing through all of the details of each plan and provider and determine what's best for you personally. I spent an entire day going through everything to determine what fits me best. I ended up with CCW Safe as well, and later added on USCCA.

 

Once you added USCCA, why did you keep CCW Safe? What did they give you that USCCA did not? And isn't it a risk to have two insurers, where each might claim the other has to absorb the expenses first?


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#53 cybermgk

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 11:36 AM

Look at CCW Safe imho.  Not only do they get someone out there right away for even the initial interview, but they self fund, i.e. not backed by an insurer like the others.  I.E. hard to attack by antis.  Also, when I compared them all 2 years ago, only one that was 100% guarenteed to be able to pay their covered 100% expenses.  At the time, the other big ones USCCA and NRA's all had cumulative limits that appled to ALL the insured. For instance,  if you had the bad luck to need them in a year, where a few insured already had, and the PLAN's total limit was hit, you are out of luck.  CCW Safe, doesn't have that vulnerability.  ,


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