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Interstate FTF Long gun transfer.


Dwe

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I need help with a question.

An Indiana resident has agreed to purchase a long gun from me.

Can we do a legal transfer FTF, or must I ship to an FFL in Indiana?

Interstate FTF Long gun transfer.

Can someone give me guidance here.

 

Thanks in advance for your wisdom!

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The BATF suggests that you must go through an FFL:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-licensee-sell-firearm-nonlicensee-who-resident-another-state

 

There is no regulation on how the gun gets to the FFL (shipping is fine but so is taking it there yourself). If you meet at the buyer's favorite Indiana gun store, you can have the FFL transfer the long immediately (IN has no waiting period as far as I know). If you meet at your favorite Illinois gunstore, the buyer will have to abide by the IL waiting period.

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You can do F2F transfers of long guns in other states. I know a few people who have.

 

Federal law places somewhat looser restrictions on the sale or transfer of long guns like rifles and shotguns across state lines. Under federal law, individuals can lawfully obtain a long gun from a seller or transferor in another state, provided that: Both parties meet in person to conduct the sale or transfer.

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All I know is I would only do a interstate transfer if I knew without question it was a legal transfer.not to sound paranoid but god forbid that firearm was used in a crime and your defense was you were unclear of the laws.some forum member smarter than me will find some hard info on this.curious if the law on interstate transfer contradicts itself between IL and in.
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18 U.S. Code § 922 Section a 5:

It shall be unlawful...

for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and ( B ) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

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You can do F2F transfers of long guns in other states. I know a few people who have.

 

Federal law places somewhat looser restrictions on the sale or transfer of long guns like rifles and shotguns across state lines. Under federal law, individuals can lawfully obtain a long gun from a seller or transferor in another state, provided that: Both parties meet in person to conduct the sale or transfer.

Unlicensed individuals can receive long guns from residents of other states if and only if the transferer is an FFL.

Unlicensed individuals cannot receive handguns (directly) from residents of other states, even if the transferer is an FFL.

Unlicensed individuals can transfer any gun to residents of other states if and only if the transferee is an FFL.

Unlicensed individuals cannot transfer any gun between them across state lines unless they do it through an FFL in the transferee's state of residence.

Unlicensed individuals can transfer any gun between them if they both reside in the same state.

 

Those are conditions of the 1968 Gun Control Act. States can add additional restrictions. (Aside: 1968 was a time before NICS. The requirement that the FFL be in-state was so he could more readily access background information on the transferee. When NICS was created, the law probably should have been changed. Meanwhile, it wasn't.)

 

If you know unlicensed people who have transferred firearms across state lines without involving an FFL, then you know people who have committed a federal felony.

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I agree with everything Euler has stated except:

 

"Unlicensed individuals cannot transfer any gun between them across state lines unless they do it through an FFL in the transferee's state of residence."

 

This is correct for handguns, but not for long guns (which is relevant to the thread's original query.) The ATF requires FFLs facilitating private transfers to follow all rules for direct transfers, which permits face-to-face transfers of long guns at the licensee's premises in another state, provided rules of both states are followed. If the original poster were to meet at an IL FFL's premises for the transfer (including waiting period), it could be done in Illinois.

 

See: https://www.atf.gov/file/110076/download

 

pg 4: "FFl-facilitated sales between private individuals are subject to the same rules and regulations as any other sale conducted by the FFl."

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I agree with everything Euler has stated except:

 

"Unlicensed individuals cannot transfer any gun between them across state lines unless they do it through an FFL in the transferee's state of residence."

 

This is correct for handguns, but not for long guns (which is relevant to the thread's original query.) The ATF requires FFLs facilitating private transfers to follow all rules for direct transfers, which permits face-to-face transfers of long guns at the licensee's premises in another state, provided rules of both states are followed. If the original poster were to meet at an IL FFL's premises for the transfer (including waiting period), it could be done in Illinois.

 

See: https://www.atf.gov/file/110076/download

 

pg 4: "FFl-facilitated sales between private individuals are subject to the same rules and regulations as any other sale conducted by the FFl."

That is still through the FFL. The transferee files a 4473, and the FFL runs a background check. The fact that the FFL does not take the firearm into his inventory is an argument of semantics. FYI, "universal" background checks work the same way. The FFL is in the middle of the transfer, even if he never touches the gun.

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Euler: I apologize not being specific. The piece of your advice that I am questioning involved only "in the transferee's state of residence" qualifier. FFLs can outside the transferee's state of residence can transfer a long gun if the transfer is done in person. That is, the Indiana resident could travel to IL to do the transfer, but would have to follow IL waiting periods.

 

We are in full agreement that interstate transfers as described by the original poser are legally required to go through an FFL.

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It is my understanding that to comply with both federal and state laws, YES you may do a legal FTF with a long gun ONLY in states that border Illinois. Handguns MUST go through a FFL.

 

 

And now from the rest of our online experts:

Let the debate begin, I'm headed to the range.

 

That only applies to purchases from an FFL and not private party transfers. Here it is directly from the BATFE website:

 

 

 

May an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA in any state?

Generally, a person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own state. Exceptions include the acquisition pursuant to a lawful bequest, or an over-the-counter acquisition of a rifle or shotgun from a licensee where the transaction is allowed by the purchaser’s state of residence and the licensee’s state of business. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any state for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

 

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]

 

Opps, not the first time I was wrong. Glad I went to the range and missed the play by play.

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Thanks folks.

I see that the answer to my question is pretty muddy,

and at best cloudy.

Too many contradictions, and the info I found
online is also vague.

 

I am not looking to push the envelope.

 

I will make the transfer through an FFL.

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Sec. 3a. (a) Any resident of Illinois who has obtained a firearm owner's identification card pursuant to this Act and who is not otherwise prohibited from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky.
( :cool: Any resident of Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky or a non-resident with a valid non-resident hunting license, who is 18 years of age or older and who is not prohibited by the laws of Illinois, the state of his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Illinois.

 

https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/043000650K3a.htm

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Sec. 3a. (a) Any resident of Illinois who has obtained a firearm owner's identification card pursuant to this Act and who is not otherwise prohibited from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky.

( :cool: Any resident of Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky or a non-resident with a valid non-resident hunting license, who is 18 years of age or older and who is not prohibited by the laws of Illinois, the state of his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Illinois.

https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/043000650K3a.htm

Been discussed here before. Not everyone interprets it the same or the permissions/restrictions, if any, around it.
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Thanks folks.

I see that the answer to my question is pretty muddy,

and at best cloudy.

Too many contradictions, and the info I found

online is also vague.

 

I am not looking to push the envelope.

 

I will make the transfer through an FFL.

I can only assume that the part you find unclear is that many people are in denial that what they want to do is illegal.

 

I also would prefer that the law didn't exist, but wishing isn't going to make it vanish instantly.

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Thanks folks.

I see that the answer to my question is pretty muddy,

and at best cloudy.

Too many contradictions, and the info I found

online is also vague.

 

I am not looking to push the envelope.

 

I will make the transfer through an FFL.

I am a 01 FFL Dealer in Oak Lawn, IL and though many people refer to federal law, many dealers are required to go by guidance letters because, just as you said, many of these laws are very vague. I will make this as simple as possible:

1. You can bring the long gun to an IL Dealer and have them run the background check for you. The IN resident will have to follow IL laws.

***You are not legally allowed to take the firearm to an IN gun dealer to do the background check and transfer. Also, a dealer does not just hand the buyer the firearm if they get Approved through FTIP. The 3 day waiting period applies if it hasn't already passed and We log the firearm in as an acquisition from the seller and log it out as a disposition to the buyer.

2. You are legally allowed to ship it to his dealer in IN or pay a dealer to do it for you. Typically, I charge $20 plus actual shipping charges. When it comes to long guns, UPS/FedEx Ground charge about the same as USPS and will get it there faster. USPS has been a failure for the past few months.

VERY IMPORTANT: if you choose to ship it yourself, call the dealer ahead of time and ask him if he allows it, many FFL Dealers do not. Also, the IN dealer would have to email you his FFL so you have proof that you are shipping it to a dealer. Many dealers are reluctant to email a copy of their FFL to an unlicensed seller. Once you receive the FFL, you'll have to check his license through ATF FFL EZ Check to make sure its valid.

I hope this answers your question as clear as possible, if not, you are always welcome to contact me.

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For clarification, so federal law makes it illegal for the legal owner legally transporting a firearm to personally stop into an out of state ffl to either sell the firearm to the ffl or to have the ffl do a transfer? The federal law then mandates and list what shipping companies are valid?

Is the federal statute so restrictive with case law supporting? Is there "case law" giving "shipping" such a ridiculous narrow definition.

Sure I can be easily wrong but I need to see this negative in print to believe.

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For clarification, so federal law makes it illegal for the legal owner legally transporting a firearm to personally stop into an out of state ffl to either sell the firearm to the ffl or to have the ffl do a transfer? The federal law then mandates and list what shipping companies are valid?

Is the federal statute so restrictive with case law supporting? Is there "case law" giving "shipping" such a ridiculous narrow definition.

Sure I can be easily wrong but I need to see this negative in print to believe.

Federal law makes it illegal for the unlicensed legal owner legally transporting a firearm to stop out of state to transfer a firearm to someone who is not an FFL without having an FFL who does business in that state mediate the transfer and has done so since 1968.

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Smallbore:

(Saying the same thing Euler said but phrased differently)

It is legal under federal law to transfer a firearm (long gun, handgun etc) to any FFL in any state. That FFL may transfer it to a buyer following all the relevant federal and local laws. To transport the firearm, you may ship it or transport it in person provided that it is transported/shipped legally. (As Euler said, this is all in the 1968 GCA)

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Smallbore:

(Saying the same thing Euler said but phrased differently)

It is legal under federal law to transfer a firearm (long gun, handgun etc) to any FFL in any state. That FFL may transfer it to a buyer following all the relevant federal and local laws. To transport the firearm, you may ship it or transport it in person provided that it is transported/shipped legally. (As Euler said, this is all in the 1968 GCA)

An unlicensed person is not legally allowed to transport a firearm in person, for sale, to an out of state FFL. I, as a licensed FFL 01 Dealer, am not allowed to transport a firearm, for sale, to another FFL who is out of state. I am required by federal law to ship the firearm using a contract carrier. I have been selling at Wisconsin gun shows for the past 3 months and had multiple conversations with the ATF about this prior to selling there. If I am an out of state FFL Dealer, I am not allowed to do an immediate transfer to an in-state dealer at a gun show. If the gun show was in IL, both in-state dealers are allowed to do immediate transfers of a firearm. That is the only way that shipping is not required for a firearm that is sold at a gun show or online. Remember, because of the vagueness of many federal firearm laws, ATF guidance letters are what's binding interpretation that most dealers have to do business under.

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Maybe I am dense but reading the posted statutes I do not read where it is illegal to personally deliver a gun to an out of state ffl. It seems the use of the ffl stops it from being an illegal private transfer. All federal and state laws will be followed with the gun transferred to the ffl books then from the ffl books to the new person.

I am pretty sure in America for something to be unlawful such actions must be clearly stated.

As a non legal guy I read the shipping statute to explain how to lawfully ship a gun via a shipping company. Where does it say that the gun owner who can legally transport his gun (hand gun or rifle) to an out of state ffl can not legally do the same?

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This is the law, as written. Do people break the law or skirt the law, they sure do. The OP asked the question to be within the law. I am very familiar with Blythe's in Griffith and they have another location in Valpo. This method is illegal. Please refer to the ATF Website.

post-18810-0-40376300-1605743666_thumb.jpg

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I'm an Illinois resident and about a year ago I sold a pistol to a guy in Indiana. He asked me if we could meet at a gun shop to complete the sale. I called Blythe's in Valparaiso and they said that it was perfectly fine for me to bring the pistol to them to transfer. All they required was a copy of my driver's license. They gave me a receipt and a copy of their FFL. They logged it in and in about 30 minutes later the new owner was on his way. Blythe's has been in business for many years so I would defer to their judgment in accepting an in person transfer from a non-Indiana resident.

In regards to a gun shop and unknowledgeable employees. I went to Ray O'Herrons to buy a few guns and yes, they do sell certain firearms to FFL Dealers. The employee who was servicing me, did not want to accept my FFL License in lieu of an ATF 4473 Background check form. As a Sole Proprietor FFL Dealer, I do not have to do a background check, even if I decide to keep it for myself. Another employee who serviced me last week, told him I am a dealer and the 4473 is not necessary. Then, he charged me the price plus taxes. I am a business that resells firearms so I do not have to pay taxes. He refused to remove the taxes and then a woman supervisor came and told him dealers don't pay taxes as long as I have a business license with the tax exempt numbers or a Resellers Certificate. So, he inputed the numbers and the taxes were removed. It turns out he has no experience in selling to FFL Dealers.

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The ATF website referencing unlicensed persons (like the OP) clearly says that "a person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any state". (It's the last paragraph on the graphic provided by ealcala31). Licensees, being the in business, are indeed restricted to do transfers in the state in which they are licensed.

 

I guess you did not read the highlighted portion of the screenshot that stated, "must be shipped."
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I'm an Illinois resident and about a year ago I sold a pistol to a guy in Indiana. He asked me if we could meet at a gun shop to complete the sale. I called Blythe's in Valparaiso and they said that it was perfectly fine for me to bring the pistol to them to transfer. All they required was a copy of my driver's license. They gave me a receipt and a copy of their FFL. They logged it in and in about 30 minutes later the new owner was on his way. Blythe's has been in business for many years so I would defer to their judgment in accepting an in person transfer from a non-Indiana resident.

 

In regards to a gun shop and unknowledgeable employees. I went to Ray O'Herrons to buy a few guns and yes, they do sell certain firearms to FFL Dealers. The employee who was servicing me, did not want to accept my FFL License in lieu of an ATF 4473 Background check form. As a Sole Proprietor FFL Dealer, I do not have to do a background check, even if I decide to keep it for myself. Another employee who serviced me last week, told him I am a dealer and the 4473 is not necessary. Then, he charged me the price plus taxes. I am a business that resells firearms so I do not have to pay taxes. He refused to remove the taxes and then a woman supervisor came and told him dealers don't pay taxes as long as I have a business license with the tax exempt numbers or a Resellers Certificate. So, he inputed the numbers and the taxes were removed. It turns out he has no experience in selling to FFL Dealers.

What does that have to do with the topic being discussed. If you're inferring that the guy at Blythe's was inexperienced, I highly doubt that. Before I was going to drive to Griffith, I called and spoke to someone who said that it would be no problem. Moreover, I doubt that a long standing business like Blythe's would allow an inexperienced person to hand out copies of their FFL.

 

I think that you're getting too hung up on the word "shipped". Why don't you call your local BATFE contact and ask him/her if it's illegal for an Illinois resident to hand carry a firearm to an FFL in another state for the ultimate transfer to a buyer in the FFL's state? You might be surprised and his/her answer.

As an FFL Dealer, if you think I have not corresponded with my ATF IOI guy multiple times on how to legally conduct business at a gun show in-state and out-of-state or any other FFL business, then you have no clue. I LOL'd at the comment that I am, "hung up on the word "shipped"." When I sell at the Wisconsin Gun Shows, I could easily do an immediate FFL-FFL Transfer and save the customer $25 shipping per firearm. Then, the Wisconsin dealer could perform the ATF 4473 Background Check Form on the customer and the customer could get his firearm that day and avoid shipping fees and FFL Transfer fees. As a dealer, I am very familiar with what laws other dealers follow and not follow and which ones will get you into hot water if you don't follow. Many IOI guys care less about what you did or immediate FFL-FFL Transfers that are out of state, but my IOI guy does. He went to Brother Rice and lives in downtown Chicago. He is deaf on shipping the firearm. For anyone wondering what an IOI guy is, he/she is an Industry Operations Investigators and those are the guys that audit dealers.

As far as passing out copies of FFLs, that is not as an important job as you think. Some companies have a specific person who deals with FFL Transfers while others have whoever answers the phone, the ability to email an FFL for an incoming FFL Transfer. But yet again, if you're not in the business, how would you know. Before I got my own FFL, I worked at Shoot Point Blank in Hodgkins and got to see how a corporation runs a FFL Business.

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