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ISP on FOIDs and cannabis


mab22

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Someone might want to reach out to the ISRA.

The logic used in that email maybe flawed considering that there is a warning on the form from the Federal agency.

 

From the email itself.

 

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

************Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside. *************

^ I think that is what you need to be careful of.

 

I suggest you talk to your own attorneys about that.

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From the ISP FB page. Boy this is ripe for abuse. All FOID holders will be considered habitual users, just wait. Illinois State Police
1 hr ·

The Illinois State Police will not revoke Firearm’s Owner’s Identification Cards based solely on a person’s legal use of adult use cannabis. Pursuant to both State and Federal law, a person who is addicted to or a habitual user of narcotics is not permitted to possess or use firearms. Accordingly, the ISP will revoke FOID cards where it is demonstrated that an individual is addicted to or is a habitual user of cannabis. The ISP would also revoke or deny the FOID cards of those who violate certain provisions of the Cannabis Regulation and Tax Act. The use of cannabis is still considered to be illegal by the Federal government and the purchase of a firearm from a federally licensed firearms dealer is governed by Federal law.

 

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For those who are not on the ISRA website:

 

———-—————

 

In the New Year there will be a bevy of new laws facing Illinois Citizens. One new law that Gun Owners should pay close attention to is PA 101-0027, the Cannabis Regulation and Tax Act. This new law allows Illinois citizens over twenty-one the ability to purchase and consume cannabis recreationally. Illinois citizens have had the ability to purchase and consume cannabis for medical reasons for five years. There is a difference between the purchase and use of Medical Cannabis and Recreational Cannabis as it relates to your lawful rights to own and possess a firearm in Illinois.

 

The following information is an attempt to dispel any myths or bad information that we have seen shared on various social media platforms as it relates to the cannabis law in Illinois. Our job at ISRA is to help you navigate laws that could have an adverse effect on your 2nd amendment rights. This information should not be used as legal advice. We at ISRA do not take an opinion for or against this new cannabis law. If you want to smoke cannabis recreationally (marijuana, weed, reefer) come January 1, 2020 that is your right. If you don’t want to smoke cannabis, that is your right as well. We live in the United States of America which gives you a 1st amendment right to your opinion either way. Our mission here at ISRA is to protect your 2nd Amendment Rights.

 

Let’s start at the beginning. When you purchase a firearm, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) requires you to fill out an ATF E-Form 4473, the Firearm Transactions Record. Specifically, you must attest to the following:

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

 

Ok, so this seems pretty straight forward. According to Federal Law if you smoke cannabis you are an “unlawful user” of a controlled substance. Is this the end of the conversation? No. The new Cannabis Regulation and Tax Act in Illinois specifically states in law that a person who uses recreational cannabis is NOT an “unlawful user” of a controlled substance. From Public Act 101-0593 (Trailer to Cannabis Act):

(410 ILCS 705/1-7 new) Sec. 1-7. Lawful user and lawful products. For the purposes of this Act and to clarify the legislative findings on the lawful use of cannabis, a person shall not be considered an unlawful user or addicted to narcotics solely as a result of his or her possession or use of cannabis or cannabis paraphernalia in accordance with this Act.

 

If you believe in State’s rights, then according to Illinois law, you are not considered an unlawful user if you use or possess cannabis. As we all know in Illinois, we have a real special hoop to jump through to exercise the right to own and possess a firearm called the Firearm Owners Identification Card (FOID).

 

The FOID Card is administered by the Illinois State Police (ISP). We at ISRA have confirmed that the Illinois State Police will “not revoke Firearm Owners' Identification cards based solely on a person’s legal use of adult-use cannabis.”

 

Another tidbit we have seen on certain social media platforms is that cannabis dispensaries will capture your personal information when you purchase their product and in turn that information will be made available to ISP. The fear that once this information is available to ISP then it can be used by the Federal Government to deny you the purchase of a firearm. From PA 101-0027, the Cannabis Regulation and Tax Act:

Section 10-20. Identification; false identification; penalty. (a) To protect personal privacy, the Department of Financial and Professional Regulation shall not require a purchaser to provide a dispensing organization with personal information other than government-issued identification to determine the purchaser's age, and a dispensing organization shall not obtain and record personal information about a purchaser without the purchaser's consent. A dispensing organization shall use an electronic reader or electronic scanning device to scan a purchaser's government-issued identification, if applicable, to determine the purchaser's age and the validity of the identification. Any identifying or personal information of a purchaser obtained or received in accordance with this Section shall not be retained, used, shared or disclosed for any purpose except as authorized by this Act.

 

Clearly under Illinois law, no cannabis dispensary can share your personal information, unless you authorize them, to anyone or any entity. This includes the Illinois State Police (ISP) and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF).

 

Lastly, we should make you aware of the differences between the purchase/use of recreational cannabis versus the purchase/use of medical cannabis as it relates to your 2nd Amendment rights. To use medical cannabis there are procedures and forms that must be filled out to get a Medical Cannabis Card that authorizes you to be in the program. While Illinois treats cannabis as a prescribed drug, the Federal Government considers cannabis to be a Schedule I narcotic. As such, the Federal Government could gain access to your records as a Medical Cannabis User and therefore jeopardize your right to purchase a firearm from a Federal Firearm License (FFL). If you intend to use cannabis and own a firearm taking the recreational cannabis route has less potential, detrimental effects on your 2nd Amendment rights than the medical cannabis route.

 

I realize this has been a long email with lots of information to digest. I hope this helped. Once again, this information is intended to educate you on the cannabis laws and not intended to be used as legal advice. We will be following the roll-out of this new Recreational Cannabis Law for any negative effects on our 2nd Amendment rights.

 

Regards,

Ed Sullivan, ISRA Lobbyist

Former Illinois State Legislator

 

—————-

 

Needless to say there is a LOT of confusion about how a drug/herb can be illegal on a federal level and legal on a state level at the same time. Seeing as how our 2A rights are regulated on both a state and federal level, the possibility of something going terribly wrong is pretty high IMHO.

 

IANAL but I can’t help but think that it might be prudent to sit back and wait a few months to see what will actually happen. The dysfunctional state of illinois was in such a rush to grab all this tax dollars that they launched this with little of no thought.

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e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

 

Given the conflicting information, what is the correct answer to question e. on the 4473. Illinois says that as an Illinois resident buying cannabis either medicinal or recreational from an approved dispensary is a lawful cannabis use. Therefore answering no could be interpreted as correct and truthful by an Illinois resident gun buyer. Given there are many states that apply conflicting laws to the second amendment without any federal consequence I see this as no different. The state law provides the protection just the same as state law provides the prosecution even though it would be legal federally. In the case of cannabis "unlawful" federally.

 

Depending on the politicians in power from election to election I think gun owners and potential gun buyers are being set up for losing 2nd amendment rights simply by the current interpretation and the agenda being served. And as with any constitutional violation questions it will take 20 to 50 years to resolve.

 

Yes I do see the obvious answer as to what an FFL would do if the 4473 was answered yes but I believe most "lawful" cannabis users will answer no to the question because Illinois has told them it is lawful. I think the state sanctuary argument would be applied here just the same as Chicago defies federal law for illegals.

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e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

 

Given the conflicting information, what is the correct answer to question e. on the 4473.

 

...

The language of the question does not prohibit POSSESSION, only USE.

 

If I were to purchase MM for a family member, and not for personal USE, then I could answer question e. on the 4473 NO truthfully.

 

The Feds SHOULD have to prove USE separately from purchase in order to lawfully deny the purchase of a firearm.

 

IANAL

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Because the STATE doesn’t find you in violation of a law within the State, what stops the Federal law from trumping the STATE law.

Illinois will turn the cheek and not look, but I’m of my own opinion that giving a justification to “lie” on a federal form due to what the STATE will or not do to you seems very slippery indeed.

 

Don’t think for a minute that this STATE didn’t or hasn’t thought about how they could stop large amounts of firearms in Illinois as they have been trying to do like forever!

THEY read these forums........

 

Buyer Beware

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And does anyone believe the state will not use whatever info they can get to revoke a FOID...

 

IMO we have to look beyond that, if you commit perjury on a 4473 and someone gets a bug up their butts resulting in a felony conviction, that is a lifetime Federal ban.

 

We just saw in Illinois how some police are now making it policy to do 'checkups' on people with revoked/suspended FOIDs because a shooter with a revoked FOID still had guns and proceeded to commit a nationalized crime, consider the next scenerio when some pot head that has been wilfully lying on the 4473 to buy his guns commits a similar act.

 

Yeah it might not happen, maybe it won't but I don't put anything out of reach of the rabid gun grabbers in Illinios, especially if we get a favorable NYSRPA ruling that could realisticaly gut many existing gun regulation in Illinois leaving the anti-gunners looking for new avenues to take guns away.

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Simple and easy choice. Don’t smoke or ingest marijuana. No problem or conflict.

 

I smoked enough from 1975-1984 to last most of a lifetime. Might do it again when I retire from responsible employment. Might not.

 

As much as I enjoy the fond memories of my less than fully informed juvenile decisions, I really don’t hold those years up as role

models for anything. Charming idiocy would be a generous assessment.

 

Does anyone here really aspire to be their 15-25 year old self? Yikes.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Illinois does the same thing with air rifles over .18 inch. They want you to fill out a 4473 for air guns when air guns are not regulated under federal law, so using the 4473 for unauthorized use is also a crime.

 

Where that happens it is a corporate or local FFL decision. That's not in the ILCS, correct?
I thought IL defines certain air guns of a given diameter or FPS velocity to be a firearm, thus requiring a FOID and subject to all rules under a FOID sale, hence the 4473...

 

From the FOID act

"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:

(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or B-B gun which expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter or which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second;

(1.1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or B-B gun which expels breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;

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I can see all of that collected purchaser information kicked over to the feds and labeling people prohibited. The state still gets their sweet tax dollars and it knocks out a chunk of the citizenry from possessing/using firearms. It's a win-win for the big govt goons in Springfield and they get to claim they aren't the bad guys because it was the feds that labeled people prohibited and not Illinois.

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CBD oil is harmless and doesn't get you high. It's been sold in health stores for years around here, long before the law allowing MJ.

It's worth noting that just because the manufacturer says CBD oil doesn't contain THC doesn't mean it doesn't contain THC. Federal law specifies that CDB oil is supposed to contain less than 0.3% THC, but it's not like FDA or USDA inspectors are checking it all (or any of it, really). Also, Federal law still requires a prescription for it, even if state laws and Carl's Jr say its okay to sell over the counter.

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CBD oil is harmless and doesn't get you high. It's been sold in health stores for years around here, long before the law allowing MJ.

It's worth noting that just because the manufacturer says CBD oil doesn't contain THC doesn't mean it doesn't contain THC. Federal law specifies that CDB oil is supposed to contain less than 0.3% THC, but it's not like FDA or USDA inspectors are checking it all (or any of it, really). Also, Federal law still requires a prescription for it, even if state laws and Carl's Jr say its okay to sell over the counter.

 

 

Interestingly enough, Gat Guns actually sells CBD oil. Not a likely place I expected to see it.

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It's worth noting that just because the manufacturer says CBD oil doesn't contain THC doesn't mean it doesn't contain THC. Federal law specifies that CDB oil is supposed to contain less than 0.3% THC, but it's not like FDA or USDA inspectors are checking it all (or any of it, really)

As with any supplement, do research and you will find some hemp CBD oils are checked by labs and during their manufacturing process and may be certified https://www.ushempauthority.org/certified-companies/
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It's worth noting that just because the manufacturer says CBD oil doesn't contain THC doesn't mean it doesn't contain THC. Federal law specifies that CDB oil is supposed to contain less than 0.3% THC, but it's not like FDA or USDA inspectors are checking it all (or any of it, really)

As with any supplement, do research and you will find some hemp CBD oils are checked by labs and during their manufacturing process and may be certified https://www.ushempauthority.org/certified-companies/

 

As with any supplement, the "certification" by "labs" is dubious. "We have tested everyone who paid the fee to get the certification, and we attest that they are certified."

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Illinois does the same thing with air rifles over .18 inch. They want you to fill out a 4473 for air guns when air guns are not regulated under federal law, so using the 4473 for unauthorized use is also a crime.

Where that happens it is a corporate or local FFL decision. That's not in the ILCS, correct?
I thought IL defines certain air guns of a given diameter or FPS velocity to be a firearm, thus requiring a FOID and subject to all rules under a FOID sale, hence the 4473...

 

From the FOID act

"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:

(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or B-B gun which expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter or which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second;

(1.1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or B-B gun which expels breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;

 

I think most corporations do like Walmart requires the 4473. some FFL's require it while others will check for a FOID and then let you walk out the door with it no paperwork attached. If you do some checking around there are a couple of online air gun retailers that will ship to your house via Fedex, or UPS. And the ones that won't will not even ship to a FFL in Illinois for him to do the transfer.

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I posted this in one of the other weed threads. 430 ILCS 65/8 Grounds for revocation or denial.

 

 

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=043000650K8

 

Of particular importance, section (n) lists one of the conditions that are grounds for revocation or denial:

 

(n) A person who is prohibited from acquiring or possessing firearms or firearm ammunition by any Illinois State statute or by federal law;

 

 

So, under the FOID law, the usage or possession of cannabis remains a disqualifier for FOID, and by extension CCL, as cannabis usage and possession remains a disqualifier for firearm and ammunition possession under federal law. There are no exceptions listed for this, and there are certainly no statutes challenging the supremacy of federal law.

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