Jump to content


Photo

CCL self-defense shooting


  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic

#31 vito

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,706 posts
  • Joined: 30-October 04

Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:18 PM

Thanks for the link. I have watched some of Ayoob's videos but had not seen this one. It was worth the almost two hours. 


Retired U.S. Army and Veteran of the Vietnam conflict

NRA Life Member

Fully retired!

 


#32 Mick G

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 800 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 17

Posted 17 December 2017 - 08:09 PM

I'm glad you found it interesting. I honestly think that everyone on this website should watch it. I know in my CCL class we watched the first one (all 4 minutes of it) and I have been familiar with Massad Ayoob and Jeff Cooper for many years.

I would love to take one of his classes but the key to all of this is knowing Illinois state laws and applying that to what he says.

 

This is why I get into nonsensical arguments on here because I think that a lot of people think that a CCL gives the same rights as the police. Basically when their CCL comes in the mail some people get "The Warrior Prince Mentality" and common sense flies right out the window. If you go looking for trouble eventually you will find it.

 

If people would watch this video I think they would have a better understanding of the true and expensive consequences of a self defense shooting.

 

Good Luck suing your CCL insurance when they bug out on you and return your premium when the case against you is determined to be NOT self defense and could of been avoided. Get ready to put your house up for bail and hopefully you have some a bunch of money saved up for a criminal attorney. If your are found not guilty then anything you have left will go towards the lawsuit that follows. If guilty the $2 a day you make in prison will go towards any judgment against you. This is serious stuff and IMO I think a bunch of people forget or don't know how serious. This video makes it pretty clear. You will learn more in 2 hours then in the 16 hour CCL class and it's free.

 

The one thing that a lot of people with "The Warrior Prince Mentality" probably don't know is that ALL of the concealed carry insurance plans have an out clause if they decide it's not self defense.

 

Example:

 

"We view these facts in the light most favorable to the member, of course, and if there is a reasonable self-defense component to the incident, then we grant additional money to fund that member’s legal defense."

 

"More than anything, NRA Carry Guard members are taught how to avoid and deescalate conflict situations."

 

I could on and on but basically you aren't covered under any plan if they for any reason determine it's not self defense and could have been avoided. Read the fine print on your policy or policies. Listen to Massad Ayoob and learn. He really does know what he's talking about. Jeff Cooper was pretty good but didn't really go into many of the legal issues before he passed. Massad Ayoob does.


Edited by Mick G, 17 December 2017 - 08:11 PM.


#33 InterestedBystander

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 4,543 posts
  • Joined: 15-March 13

Posted 17 December 2017 - 08:28 PM

Full story at link...

http://www.chicagotr...1217-story.html

Name released of man shot dead by concealed carry permit holder

The identity has been made public of a 21-year-old man shot dead by a concealed carry permit holder who believed he was being robbed at gunpoint Thursday night on the South Side.

Jermaine Marshall, of the 4900 block of South Loomis Street, died of multiple gunshot wounds and his death was ruled a homicide, according to the Cook County medical examiners office.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 17 December 2017 - 08:30 PM.

NRA Life Member
ISRA Member
FFL-IL Supporter
🇺🇸 "Remember in November" 🗳️

#34 JTHunter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 915 posts
  • Joined: 29-November 13

Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:18 PM

One of the interesting things about the stories in the WGN links are the words at the bottom of every article - "Stop Gun Violence" with a "Take Action" button below that.  That goes to a "Public Good (dot) com" money-grabbing site.


“We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.” - - Abraham Lincoln

“Small minds adhere to the letter of the law; great minds dispense Justice.” - - S. C. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

Life member NAHC, Endowment member NRA

#35 Mick G

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 800 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 17

Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:30 PM

Full story at link...

http://www.chicagotr...1217-story.html

Name released of man shot dead by concealed carry permit holder

The identity has been made public of a 21-year-old man shot dead by a concealed carry permit holder who believed he was being robbed at gunpoint Thursday night on the South Side.

Jermaine Marshall, of the 4900 block of South Loomis Street, died of multiple gunshot wounds and his death was ruled a homicide, according to the Cook County medical examiners office.

 

Alright we know the guys name and since he was shot it is a homicide. Basically this is just an update that an autopsy has been performed. The investigation is still underway. The CPD isn't going to show their hand until every piece of evidence is gone through and statements are reviewed. The "victim" isn't out of the woods yet, actually not for a while.

 

Food for thought. The robber has the drop on this guy. He has a revolver and doesn't manage to get off a shot that even grazes the victim? No windows were hit by bullets? Going by the victims story basically this guy jumps in the car with a revolver and ends up in a gunfight that ends up with him getting shot in the chest and back? The last I checked there isn't a lot of room in an Altima for a gunfight unless the revolver was unloaded, which is possible and would explain a lot. There are a lot of dumb criminals who believe that an unloaded gun means a reduced charge. 

 

Love the Trib spin: The identity has been made public of a 21-year-old man shot dead by a concealed carry permit holder who believed he was being robbed at gunpoint Thursday night on the South Side.



#36 Jeckler

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,455 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 11

Posted 18 December 2017 - 09:48 PM

 
This is why I get into nonsensical arguments on here
 



There is a fine line between devils advocate and internet troll...

#37 Mick G

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 800 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 17

Posted 18 December 2017 - 10:43 PM

 

 
This is why I get into nonsensical arguments on here
 



There is a fine line between devils advocate and internet troll...

 

 

While you might be proof of that by only quoting part of the sentence and not the whole sentence, you might want to take a good look into that internet troll thing.

 

The sentence was: "This is why I get into nonsensical arguments on here because I think that a lot of people think that a CCL gives the same rights as the police."

 

That statement is true and not playing devils advocate.

 

I take it you didn't watch the video. Watch it, you could learn a lot from it.



#38 vito

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,706 posts
  • Joined: 30-October 04

Posted 21 December 2017 - 01:52 PM

Anyone have an update on this incident?


Retired U.S. Army and Veteran of the Vietnam conflict

NRA Life Member

Fully retired!

 


#39 yyyz

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 406 posts
  • Joined: 16-October 13

Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:21 AM

.Somewhat related... There is a new tile at http://heyjackass.com titled "Self Defense 2017". Covers 2015-2017


Edited by yyyz, 22 December 2017 - 05:21 AM.

Gfw

 

The Constitution is the Constitution. Our rights are not granted through it, they are protected by it.


#40 chislinger

    Member

  • Members
  • 5,818 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 13

Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:21 AM

Mick G, on 17 Dec 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:
Food for thought. The robber has the drop on this guy. He has a revolver and doesn't manage to get off a shot that even grazes the victim? No windows were hit by bullets? Going by the victims story basically this guy jumps in the car with a revolver and ends up in a gunfight that ends up with him getting shot in the chest and back? The last I checked there isn't a lot of room in an Altima for a gunfight unless the revolver was unloaded, which is possible and would explain a lot. There are a lot of dumb criminals who believe that an unloaded gun means a reduced charge.

Street thugs aren't known to have the newest and most reliable firearms in the best of condition. They don't go to the range to see if their firearms even work.

And they certainly don't practice their shooting skills.

This outcome really doesn't seem remarkable to me.
"I'm not worried about following the U.S. Constitution." - Washington County, Alabama Judge Nick Williams

#41 Mick G

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 800 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 17

Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:23 AM

 

Mick G, on 17 Dec 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:
Food for thought. The robber has the drop on this guy. He has a revolver and doesn't manage to get off a shot that even grazes the victim? No windows were hit by bullets? Going by the victims story basically this guy jumps in the car with a revolver and ends up in a gunfight that ends up with him getting shot in the chest and back? The last I checked there isn't a lot of room in an Altima for a gunfight unless the revolver was unloaded, which is possible and would explain a lot. There are a lot of dumb criminals who believe that an unloaded gun means a reduced charge.

Street thugs aren't known to have the newest and most reliable firearms in the best of condition. They don't go to the range to see if their firearms even work.

And they certainly don't practice their shooting skills.

This outcome really doesn't seem remarkable to me.

 

 

True but it's a revolver so point and shoot. If he has ammo and the gun isn't WAY out of time then it goes boom.

 

I don't care if the guy is in full blown withdrawal and is shaking uncontrollably, missing in the confines of a Altima is unlikely.

 

I think the revolver is unloaded and is used for intimidation. Oops!

 

We have no idea of what kind of revolver it was. Many years ago the old guy across the street used to go to his cabin every weekend. The woman on the next block has three different kids from three different fathers but inherited the house. The oldest one at that time was growing up to be quite the punk and the last I heard he was taking a vacation downstate in one of our fine Illinois prisons. He was about 13 or 14 at the time, the old guy never locked his back door and its like a 50 foot walk to his house from the punks. He ends up stealing jar of pennies and finds a drawer with three revolvers. He grabs the top one which was a  .32 S&W Long. That's what got him caught. The police put out the word to LGS's and sure enough some 18 year old punk with a FOID walks in the one closest to where I live and asks for .32 S&W Long ammo. "I think we keep that in the back" as the owner calls the police. They question the 18 year old and he gives up the punk from the next block. I ended up putting a deadbolt on the old guys back door.

 

Anyway if this kid isn't freaking out in the cases under that were a .38 Special and a Dirty Harry .44 magnum model 29 in SS. My neighbor bought it after "Dirty Harry" came out and waited a year to get it. He didn't want one in SS. If the kid has half a brain he takes all three, sells the .32 and .44 because getting ammo for .32 is impossible (it was a family gun that was passed down and my neighbor is 86) and everybody loves "the most powerful handgun in the world".

 

That is one scenario, maybe the guy couldn't get ammo or went by the old perception that if you use an unloaded gun it isn't "armed robbery" or there are some unsolved murders that when the crime lab gets to it are now solved. Usually if you buy a street gun you usually get it filled with ammo. This guy buys it and has 6 rounds, which he used up. A lot of guns on the street are stolen in burglaries.

 

We will probably never know but if that was a revolver from 1975 or up and is loaded, the victim gets at least grazed.



#42 matkinson

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 303 posts
  • Joined: 27-November 13

Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:59 AM

 

 

Street thugs aren't known to have the newest and most reliable firearms in the best of condition. They don't go to the range to see if their firearms even work.

And they certainly don't practice their shooting skills.

 

 

While this seems to be true for the bulk of street thugs, I wouldn't count on it.  There are those, especially in organized gangs, that keep their firearms in good condition and train with them to some degree.



#43 Lion of Lincoln

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Joined: 20-March 08

Posted 25 December 2017 - 11:28 AM

curious to know if any updates as well


Edited by Lion of Lincoln, 25 December 2017 - 11:29 AM.


#44 Chicago_Shooter09

  • Members
  • 16 posts
  • Joined: 29-June 17

Posted 02 January 2018 - 04:01 AM


 
 
Street thugs aren't known to have the newest and most reliable firearms in the best of condition. They don't go to the range to see if their firearms even work.
And they certainly don't practice their shooting skills.


 
 
While this seems to be true for the bulk of street thugs, I wouldn't count on it.  There are those, especially in organized gangs, that keep their firearms in good condition and train with them to some degree.

 
 
Street thugs aren't known to have the newest and most reliable firearms in the best of condition. They don't go to the range to see if their firearms even work.
And they certainly don't practice their shooting skills.

 
 
While this seems to be true for the bulk of street thugs, I wouldn't count on it.  There are those, especially in organized gangs, that keep their firearms in good condition and train with them to some degree.


Most of the firearms I’ve come across on the job aren’t necessarily well-maintained but they are still in good enough working order. And a lot of the street thugs shoot a lot more than you would think. We get a lot of shots fired incidents that come from backyards. There have been a few times that I’ve been patrolling and will hear loud reports and call them in myself and yet not a single citizen calls them in to 911. So these guys can get a bit of backyard practice in without fear of neighbors calling police.

#45 GoHawks21

  • Members
  • 8 posts
  • Joined: 17-November 17

Posted 04 January 2018 - 05:38 PM

$ He wasn't an armed robber. He was good boy who was turning his life around and was on the honor roll this semester. $

Maybe on his way to medical school ?



#46 ChicagoRonin70

    The Landlord of the Flies!

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 3,199 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 14

Posted 04 January 2018 - 05:40 PM

 

$ He wasn't an armed robber. He was good boy who was turning his life around and was on the honor roll this semester. $

Maybe on his way to medical school ?

 

 

Textbooks are expensive; gotta pay for them somehow.


“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 


#47 Sigma

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,974 posts
  • Joined: 13-August 09

Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:27 PM

Didnt target ban guns


Exodus 22:2-3
If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

Gun control is not about guns, it's about control. Once they have all the guns, they'll also have complete control.-Abolt

Guns kill people just like beds get girls pregnant.

#48 gangrel

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 2,989 posts
  • Joined: 13-April 11

Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:40 PM

Didnt target ban guns

Nope. Just asked patrons not to carry them openly.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


NRA Life Member

NRA Certified Range Safety Officer

NRA Certified Instructor - Basic Pistol, PPIH, PPOH, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety
ISP Approved Firearm Concealed Carry Instructor

Utah CCW Instructor


#49 vito

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,706 posts
  • Joined: 30-October 04

Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:42 PM

Target stores by me are not posted. As far as I am concerned, that means carrying is totally lawful and proper. 


Retired U.S. Army and Veteran of the Vietnam conflict

NRA Life Member

Fully retired!

 


#50 Dr. G

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 230 posts
  • Joined: 09-April 08

Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:24 AM

There is nothing you can say to the Police that can help you!!!  Anything you say that can be used against you, will be used against you.  Anything you say that could be used to help you is considered "Hearsay", and therefore inadmissible in court!  90% of convictions occur as a result of what the person says at the crime scene, 90%!  The crime scene is a time to be quite, and let your Lawyer earn all of that money he's going to get from you. Don't talk to the Police without a lawyer present!

 

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/mvkgnp/law-professor-police-interrogation-law-constitution-survival 


Nobody ever wished they had a smaller gun, with fewer bullets, in a gunfight.... Author unknown.

#51 Warped

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 470 posts
  • Joined: 24-December 13

Posted 30 January 2018 - 09:39 PM

There is nothing you can say to the Police that can help you!!!  Anything you say that can be used against you, will be used against you. 

 90% of convictions occur as a result of what the person says at the crime scene, 90%! 

 

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/mvkgnp/law-professor-police-interrogation-law-constitution-survival 

 

A perfect example of this  that happens on our roads every day

is when you get pulled over for speeding by the law 

 

DONT answer the cop when they ask you if you know what the speed limit is

DONT answer the cop when they ask you how fast you think you were going

 

doing so is a admission of guilt especially if they did not get you on radar/laser 


Remember ....Four boxes keep us free: the soap box. the ballot box. the jury box. and the cartridge box.!!

 

Now living in Arizona and it is not the 2nd amendment utopia that a lot of people think it is


#52 vito

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,706 posts
  • Joined: 30-October 04

Posted 31 January 2018 - 07:43 AM

I've written about this before, but its worth repeating. A number of years ago my youngest son was stopped by a nearby community's local police while driving my car. They claimed they found marijuana in the car (charges later dismissed based upon unlawful search). He called me from the scene and asked me to come to get the car, which was one of my cars. When I arrived, I foolishly allowed myself to be drawn into conversation with the arresting officer, who asked me who owned the car my son was driving. I said it was my car, but that my son was the primary driver of that car. After they took my son from the scene, they refused to allow me to take the car, claiming it had to be searched for further evidence. The next day I was told that they were keeping the car since it was involved in the "crime" of drug possession, and that, in their words, since I "admitted" that the car belonged to my son, it was within their rights to seize the vehicle. Ultimately, and long before the charges against my son were dismissed, I was able to get my car back and the court admonished this local police force saying they had no legal grounds to have held the car in the first place. But it took almost five months, several thousand dollars in lawyer costs, two court hearings, and then a small fortune in "fees" to get the car out of the impoundment lot. My lawyer told me that if I had  said nothing the night of the arrest, most likely I would have been able to drive home with the car in question, but the fact that I spoke to the police, and said anything, allowed them to "hear" what they wanted to hear and to write in their notes that I said the car was owned by my son. The reality that ownership of the car was easily determined by my showing the police the title to the car, which showed it was mine, meant nothing at that point. Once they had taken the car they did not want to return it. 

 

I learned my lesson for real that night. Not only should you not talk to the police if you are an accused suspect, even as a bystander you can get yourself in a bad situation merely for talking to the officer at the scene. One of my other sons was a police officer at the time, and complained to me that my attitude about not talking to the police would be disastrous for law enforcement if everyone behaved that way. I told that son that what he said might be true, but I am concerned with my rights and my property and that one screw over by these local police was more than enough for me. 


Edited by vito, 31 January 2018 - 07:45 AM.

Retired U.S. Army and Veteran of the Vietnam conflict

NRA Life Member

Fully retired!

 


#53 Grandpa59

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 15

Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:59 PM

So much useful and helpful information here that sometimes we stumble upon this information too late.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users