Smaller FFL's vs. Gun Stores

[Euler]

Are you sure that by being issued an FFL a dealer is required by law to complete the transfer of a firearm to a non-FFL?

I'm not an FFL, but I asked my local FFL about that a while ago, since I'd seen it asserted that FFLs were supposed to use their license to help others or risk losing it.

 

He said that wasn't true. An FFL can be an FFL just for himself. There is no requirement to do transfers. He's 07, not 01, though.

[Illini2A312]

Thanks all. Possibly dumb question, but are deals on Gunbroker generally reputable/legit? Was looking at a deal from an out-of-state LGS with an FFL designation so I'd assume they're reputable but wanted to see what the general experience is.

[billzfx4]

Thanks all. Possibly dumb question, but are deals on Gunbroker generally reputable/legit? Was looking at a deal from an out-of-state LGS with an FFL designation so I'd assume they're reputable but wanted to see what the general experience is.

 

I've done 8-9 purchases on Gunbroker and had no problems at all. That is not saying there are no scammers in the mix, but most on there seem legit.

Armslist on the other hand, at least in my experience, is ripe with scammers and buffoons.

[Xwing]

Thanks all. Possibly dumb question, but are deals on Gunbroker generally reputable/legit? Was looking at a deal from an out-of-state LGS with an FFL designation so I'd assume they're reputable but wanted to see what the general experience is.

 

Yes, generally. I've bought most of my firearms on Gunbroker, and never had a bad experience yet. As in everything, buyer beware. But I think the vast majority of gunbroker sellers are legit.

[ddan]

 

Are you sure that by being issued an FFL a dealer is required by law to complete the transfer of a firearm to a non-FFL?

FFL has right to refuse to transfer but I'm specifically referring to FFLs who refuse to do transfers for reasons like "I don't make much money" or "it's a hassle" or (my favorite) "I don't like transfers." Not because they suspect straw purchase or other lies on 4473, transferee is being obnoxious, whatever else. The latter would be perfectly legit. The former would be violating terms of their FFL. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

What are you talking about? "violating terms of their FFL?" This is not a thing. Please cite something in the Gun Control Act or other statute that sets forth the "terms of my FFL"

[Flynn]

I've seen an LGS charge $100 for a transfer. Another, $50. Cheapest I can find is $25 and he's gonna be put out of business by the gun dealer licensing crap. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

 

I have not done a transfer with an FFL in awhile, but it pays to shop around prices are all over the place. I have never found a transfer deal with any of the bigger local gun stores seems like they are scorned that you didn't buy from them and attempt to get what they would have made in profit on the sale in excess transfer gouging. I have found plenty of deals with home and/or small in the garage type based FFLs though, plus they are very responsive. One thing to note is if you are buying multiple firearms is if they give a discount, some charge the same transfer fee for every firearm some just add a few bucks for the 2nd and 3rd and so on, shopping around can literally save you $100 on multiple gun purchases.

 

That said, one of the local pawn shops by me is now advertising (on Gunbroker's FFL list) that they will do transfers for $15, I might give them some business in short to see how that goes.

[chicagoresident]

 

 

 

Are you sure that by being issued an FFL a dealer is required by law to complete the transfer of a firearm to a non-FFL?

FFL has right to refuse to transfer but I'm specifically referring to FFLs who refuse to do transfers for reasons like "I don't make much money" or "it's a hassle" or (my favorite) "I don't like transfers." Not because they suspect straw purchase or other lies on 4473, transferee is being obnoxious, whatever else. The latter would be perfectly legit. The former would be violating terms of their FFL. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

What are you talking about? "violating terms of their FFL?" This is not a thing. Please cite something in the Gun Control Act or other statute that sets forth the "terms of my FFL"

I believe the confusion comes from

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-7-7-cr-application-federal-firearms-license-atf-form-531012531016/download

 

 

Type 01, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, and 11 licenses issued under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44: Are business licenses, and will Not be issued to an applicant solely intending to enhance a personal firearms collection. Are NOT licenses to sell ammunition only.

During the Clinton administration they used this clause to pressure and revoke smaller FFL's. There was talk of doing the same in the Obama administration. Since the ATF is under the executive branch and the attorney general is given latitude to enforce laws on the books this can be problematic for kitchen table FFL's.

 

But this clause is not a requirement to do business with whomever, it's stating you must do some business as an FFL.

[SiliconSorcerer]

I gave it up during Clinton's watch.

[ealcala31]

No 01 licensee can force another 01 licensee to receive any firearm. Point in question, I have a person who bought a rifle on Gunbroker and failed his background check (old order of protection according to the customer). The sending FFL refused to accept the return because it was a consignment firearm and the original owner was paid, plus he says his Gunbroker disclaimer does not accept returns due to a firearm being prohibited in the purchasers jurisdiction or because the buyer is prohibited from owning firearms altogether. I still have this rifle trying to negotiate with the buyer who is hoping to be cleared and retrying the background check system again. According to the ATF IOI guy, I am not allowed to retroactively sell a firearm that I do not own or have permission to sell, but I am legally not allowed to give him his firearm because of his denial.

[Anonymous One]

No 01 licensee can force another 01 licensee to receive any firearm. Point in question, I have a person who bought a rifle on Gunbroker and failed his background check (old order of protection according to the customer). The sending FFL refused to accept the return because it was a consignment firearm and the original owner was paid, plus he says his Gunbroker disclaimer does not accept returns due to a firearm being prohibited in the purchasers jurisdiction or because the buyer is prohibited from owning firearms altogether. I still have this rifle trying to negotiate with the buyer who is hoping to be cleared and retrying the background check system again. According to the ATF IOI guy, I am not allowed to retroactively sell a firearm that I do not own or have permission to sell, but I am legally not allowed to give him his firearm because of his denial.

 

Your customer, knowing that he had an issue that may result in him being denied, should have had you run the background check before he bid on the auction.

[ealcala31]

According to the ATF, you are not allowed to do that. The FTIP/NICS background check does not take place until the buyer fills out the ATF Form 4473 at your business location in front of you.

[ddan]

No 01 licensee can force another 01 licensee to receive any firearm. Point in question, I have a person who bought a rifle on Gunbroker and failed his background check (old order of protection according to the customer). The sending FFL refused to accept the return because it was a consignment firearm and the original owner was paid, plus he says his Gunbroker disclaimer does not accept returns due to a firearm being prohibited in the purchasers jurisdiction or because the buyer is prohibited from owning firearms altogether. I still have this rifle trying to negotiate with the buyer who is hoping to be cleared and retrying the background check system again. According to the ATF IOI guy, I am not allowed to retroactively sell a firearm that I do not own or have permission to sell, but I am legally not allowed to give him his firearm because of his denial.

Which is precisely why no FFL who wishes to have a viable business would do a $10 transfer. Sorry for your misfortune, and I hope you get it worked out.

[Anonymous One]

According to the ATF, you are not allowed to do that. The FTIP/NICS background check does not take place until the buyer fills out the ATF Form 4473 at your business location in front of you.

I know of several FFLs who will do the background check prior to receiving the gun. They ask for, or already have, a FOID copy on file.

[Glock23]

According to the ATF, you are not allowed to do that. The FTIP/NICS background check does not take place until the buyer fills out the ATF Form 4473 at your business location in front of you.

I know of several FFLs who will do the background check prior to receiving the gun. They ask for, or already have, a FOID copy on file.

This.

 

I've bought numerous guns online, called it in to a local FFL, they do the background check, and the paperwork is filled out when I show up to pick up the firearm.

[ealcala31]

I am a new FFL 01 holder, I got my license in March 2019. During the ATF IOI interview, he made it very clear how the process was to take place. The background check cannot be initiated until the ATF Form 4473 is filled out at your business location correctly. The buyer must be present and the only exception to the business location is at a gun show, which is considered an "extension" to your business location. He gave a few unacceptable scenarios to how and when some background checks have taken place and stated that there is only one correct process to do it, with the exception of the gun show.

[lockman]

No 01 licensee can force another 01 licensee to receive any firearm. Point in question, I have a person who bought a rifle on Gunbroker and failed his background check (old order of protection according to the customer). The sending FFL refused to accept the return because it was a consignment firearm and the original owner was paid, plus he says his Gunbroker disclaimer does not accept returns due to a firearm being prohibited in the purchasers jurisdiction or because the buyer is prohibited from owning firearms altogether. I still have this rifle trying to negotiate with the buyer who is hoping to be cleared and retrying the background check system again. According to the ATF IOI guy, I am not allowed to retroactively sell a firearm that I do not own or have permission to sell, but I am legally not allowed to give him his firearm because of his denial.

 

So in this case the gun is paid for and the previous owner no longer owns it. It has a new owner that is a prohibited person. The FFL should notify the prohibited owner that he has X number of days to arrange the transfer of the firearm to an authorized possessor. After that time the firearm should be treated like any other unclaimed property.

 

 

 

 

^ this ***

[ealcala31]

To make a long story short, this firearm basically becomes a consignment firearm. As any consignment firearm, you accept or deny offers. The problem is taxes are involved in any sale that I'm a part of except for private to private sales and the likelihood of recouping your money back is prob not going to happen because of taxes and my fees ($25 transfer fee + 10% consignment charge).

[Kenny]

If you dont support ma and pa shops they wont be around long. 3 of them in my area just closed. I wish everybody knew how little markup there is in guns. We (the store owners) have to purchase guns for display for $300-$1200 for typical stock with our own money. We sit on it until someone buys it and if we can make $40 that is an amazing profit! If you keep transferring to a dealer they may decide it isnt worth it and give it up forcing you to go farther or pay a lot more for transfers.

[McCroskey]

I like the mom and pops moreso than the stores. I've met some really nice folks that way and a lot of them could use the extra transfer $$ then the big shops need it.

[mikeyk101]

https://gun.deals/is the main place I have used to help me with online purchases. It has worked out the best for finding the best prices.

[Euler]

... Because someone who was incarcerated was released was a Soundex match. ...

It's off-topic, but it's worth noting that Soundex was designed by English-speaking people to use with English-sounding names. The US variant was adapted to work with a more American distribution of names as of 100 years ago (i.e., still almost entirely European). Expect difficulty if you don't have a European name.

[Euler]

... I prefer table top FFLs just to put it back on track. I got into a big thing with a LGS and have never bought from a big box store.

In between is the mom & pop store. Small LGSs are highly variable, I think.

 

The FFL I use most is a guy who makes his living as a gunsmith. I've had him do some smithing for me, too. He doesn't charge transfer fees like he resents that people don't buy guns from him, and he still makes money in his chosen firearm-related profession. Doing transfers brings him smithing business. It's a model that works.

[BigJim]

Given FFL's have been limited to how much they can charge for a transfer now I think we're going to see the end of the kitchen table FFL.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

 

[papa]

Given FFL's have been limited to how much they can charge for a transfer now I think we're going to see the end of the kitchen table FFL. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

All they have to do is refuse to do transfers . No way these polotitions can tell a private shop owner how much they can charge for a service.

[Keith44]

Alternatively, could they add a “convenience fee” (just like the ISP) to make up the difference...

 

-Keith.

[InterestedBystander]

 

Given FFL's have been limited to how much they can charge for a transfer now I think we're going to see the end of the kitchen table FFL. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

All they have to do is refuse to do transfers . No way these polotitions can tell a private shop owner how much they can charge for a service.

Willis says they should be happy she is sending them business

[Glock23]

Given FFL's have been limited to how much they can charge for a transfer now I think we're going to see the end of the kitchen table FFL.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

IF SB1966 passes AND passes constitutional muster, they're only limited to the $10 transfer fee for private party transfers. Ordering online and transferring through the same FFL, they can still charge their standard fee.

[RacerDave6]

 

Given FFL's have been limited to how much they can charge for a transfer now I think we're going to see the end of the kitchen table FFL. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

All they have to do is refuse to do transfers . No way these polotitions can tell a private shop owner how much they can charge for a service.

The state will just make it a condition of their state ffl license. Do it for $10 or we won't license you to do business.

[InterestedBystander]

 

 

Given FFL's have been limited to how much they can charge for a transfer now I think we're going to see the end of the kitchen table FFL. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

All they have to do is refuse to do transfers . No way these polotitions can tell a private shop owner how much they can charge for a service.

The state will just make it a condition of their state ffl license. Do it for $10 or we won't license you to do business.

NY also has the $10 transfer cap. I guess they started at that level but have now started charging more knowing that it wasnt getting enforced.

[Flingarrows]

... I prefer table top FFLs just to put it back on track. I got into a big thing with a LGS and have never bought from a big box store.In between is the mom & pop store. Small LGSs are highly variable, I think.The FFL I use most is a guy who makes his living as a gunsmith. I've had him do some smithing for me, too. He doesn't charge transfer fees like he resents that people don't buy guns from him, and he still makes money in his chosen firearm-related profession. Doing transfers brings him smithing business. It's a model that works.

 

Is it that hat Paul? I had some work done by him on my sons hunting gun

 

 

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