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For those that DON'T think red flag/lethal order of protection laws won't/can't be abused


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#1 cybermgk

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:33 AM

IN NJ (no due process)

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=j9eVJ37EOoI


Edited by cybermgk, 05 July 2018 - 11:36 AM.

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#2 steveTA1983

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 05:35 PM

It’s being abused A LOT in Broward County, FL as well. Think it’s at 35 confiscations now since the Parkland shooting

#3 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 08:29 AM

I don't get how a "law" like this can get passed and enforced.

For those 35 confiscations, why wouldn't they immediately bring a deprivation of rights suit against the state?

#4 Molly B.

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 08:55 AM

If you are a firearm owner, don't go to New Jersey.  Don't live in New Jersey.   Stay far, far, far away from New Jersey!


"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#5 cybermgk

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 08:56 AM

If you are a firearm owner, don't go to New Jersey.  Don't live in New Jersey.   Stay far, far, far away from New Jersey!

Truer words have never been said.


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#6 Molly B.

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 08:57 AM

It’s being abused A LOT in Broward County, FL as well. Think it’s at 35 confiscations now since the Parkland shooting

 

 

Florida has a fairly strong law with the level of evidence and the procedures for doing this.  I don't know the details of the specific cases but I bet they are following up on every single case filed, because they really messed up by not following up on the Parkland killer.


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#7 steveTA1983

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 09:58 AM

It’s being abused A LOT in Broward County, FL as well. Think it’s at 35 confiscations now since the Parkland shooting

 
 
Florida has a fairly strong law with the level of evidence and the procedures for doing this.  I don't know the details of the specific cases but I bet they are following up on every single case filed, because they really messed up by not following up on the Parkland killer.

This is true. I’ll find the article, but it appears that a lot of the ones that had their stuff taken are also vets. Sad that they are treated as potential threats

#8 steveTA1983

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 10:01 AM

http://sunshinestate...ed-flag-gun-law

With the Red Flag law now in effect, the Sun-Sentinel looked into how counties across the state were enacting the new legislation. The newspaper found that, while many had begun to use this new tool, Broward county far exceeded all others in the enforcement and seizing of firearms under this law. To date, Broward authorities have taken a confiscation action 34 times. The Orlando area was a distant second, with a total of just five cases.

Given that Parkland is a Broward County city, it makes sense the county would be far more active in the implementation of this new power. Of the 34 cases cited, the Broward Sheriff’s Office led all agencies in the county, having used Red Flag laws 19 times.

This will surely be seen as a reaction to the reports the Broward Sheriff's Office didn't take more proactive steps during the numerous visits deputies made to the home of the shooter in the months preceding the tragedy. That inertia of authority is regarded as the motivation to create and pass the "red flag" portion of the bill.

What will remain to be clarified is how much of this law will be retained. There are sure to be some legal challenges regarding enforcement. The red flag legislation is a difficult one to detail, and there is still a struggle to get a comprehensive solution in place. Most agree on the need to have authorities step in when, say, an individual threatens mass violence. The converse challenge is doing so without the right of due process.



#9 Jeffrey

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 10:13 AM

Who in Broward gives the final signature for these raids?  I assume it to be the Sheriff.  Same one that missed a  large gorilla in a small room.  Now he's trying to save face?  


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#10 steveTA1983

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 10:26 AM

Who in Broward gives the final signature for these raids?  I assume it to be the Sheriff.  Same one that missed a  large gorilla in a small room.  Now he's trying to save face?

Hes involved. Hes anti-gun. He is putting the blame onto gun owners for his and his departments inaction. I dont even want to start a thread on what a hypocrite this guy is (Scott Isreal) from his past examples.

Edited by steveTA1983, 06 July 2018 - 10:27 AM.


#11 Euler

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 11:43 AM

Who in Broward gives the final signature for these raids?  I assume it to be the Sheriff.  Same one that missed a  large gorilla in a small room.  Now he's trying to save face?


It depends what you mean by "final." A judge has to order it. Any law enforcement agency with jurisdiction can execute it.

#12 papa

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 11:53 AM

If you are a firearm owner, don't go to New Jersey.  Don't live in New Jersey.   Stay far, far, far away from New Jersey!

Back in the mid 1980's I made a delivery to Sayreville , N.J.  It was by far the dirtiest city I have ever been in.  I decided the East Coast wasn't my cup of tea.



#13 markthesignguy

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 02:25 PM

If you are a firearm owner, don't go to New Jersey.  Don't live in New Jersey.   Stay far, far, far away from New Jersey!

 

My internet purchasing including eBay specifically AVOIDS making purchases in New Jersey, New York and California.

Massachusetts and a few others will probably be joining the list soon, when I get a bit of time to think again...

 

 

A few example cases with judgements that ruin the false petitioners might give other vengeful liars pause.


Edited by markthesignguy, 06 July 2018 - 02:29 PM.

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#14 vito

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 07:16 AM

We all know how anti gun the laws are in NJ (and of course other states are just as bad, like NY). But what often is not thought about is that the ordinary people in those states support this whole anti-gun mindset and attitude. Not all the people, obviously, but certainly a majority, Talking with people in NJ or NY quickly makes it clear that they think I am the weirdo for owning guns, and doubly weird for actually carrying a concealed firearm. I am considered beyond weird, to the extreme of actually dangerously evil for being a dues paying member of the NRA. Despite the fact that I am a law abiding citizen, a retired U.S. Army officer, a responsible father and grandfather, I have little doubt that if I lived in NJ or NY at least one of my relatives would want to have my guns seized. And not because I would have done anything to justify this, but to them, merely owning a firearm is all the proof they need that I am dangerous and unstable. This is what we are facing in a good portion of this nation.

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#15 kevinmcc

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:02 AM

These laws are unconstitutional. There is a strict line they should be following.

1. If there is sufficient evidence someone is a danger and a court agrees, arrest them.
 

2. Psychological evaluation ordered.

3. If they are a danger, the court should adjudicate they are a danger.

4. While still in custody they should confiscate the firearms.

Simple, they get their time in court.

But also if they are arrested to be evaluated and a person false presented evidence they are a danger, then that person should be criminally and civil liable for damages.

None of the anonymous tip garbage and immediate confiscation.


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#16 Molly B.

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:27 AM

These laws are unconstitutional. There is a strict line they should be following.

1. If there is sufficient evidence someone is a danger and a court agrees, arrest them.
 

2. Psychological evaluation ordered.

3. If they are a danger, the court should adjudicate they are a danger.

4. While still in custody they should confiscate the firearms.

Simple, they get their time in court.

But also if they are arrested to be evaluated and a person false presented evidence they are a danger, then that person should be criminally and civil liable for damages.

None of the anonymous tip garbage and immediate confiscation.

 

This is our argument also for most of these 'red flag' laws.  However the proposed legislation here in Illinois is different.  It's being presented as a model piece of legislation to help prevent instances like the Waffle House killer and Parkland High School killer and other high profile cases.

We oppose the ex parte portion of the IL bill but in reviewing the bill with some of the top Second Amendment attorneys in the country, it's very possible the IL bill is constitutional because:

 

1. The level of evidence that must be provided is among the highest in the nation.

2. With this level of evidence and the danger of imminent harm, the constitutional balance is swayed toward the interest of public safety.

3. The respondent does not lose ownership of firearms, respondent may transfer them to someone for safekeeping.

4. Unlike regular orders of protection, it is constitutional because the order is not final until the person has their day in court, which must happen within a relative short period of time.

5. In cases of mental illness, the Mental Health Act can and most likely will be implemented and a mental evaluation ordered by the judge at the same time.

6. In the case of someone being menacing and making threats, an arrest warrant can and most likely will be issued at the same time.

7. With the level of evidence required and the stiff penalties for false testimony, there is a reduced likelihood of abuse in filing a petition for a FRO.


"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#17 cybermgk

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:41 AM

 

These laws are unconstitutional. There is a strict line they should be following.

1. If there is sufficient evidence someone is a danger and a court agrees, arrest them.
 

2. Psychological evaluation ordered.

3. If they are a danger, the court should adjudicate they are a danger.

4. While still in custody they should confiscate the firearms.

Simple, they get their time in court.

But also if they are arrested to be evaluated and a person false presented evidence they are a danger, then that person should be criminally and civil liable for damages.

None of the anonymous tip garbage and immediate confiscation.

 

This is our argument also for most of these 'red flag' laws.  However the proposed legislation here in Illinois is different.  It's being presented as a model piece of legislation to help prevent instances like the Waffle House killer and Parkland High School killer and other high profile cases.

We oppose the ex parte portion of the IL bill but in reviewing the bill with some of the top Second Amendment attorneys in the country, it's very possible the IL bill is constitutional because:

 

1. The level of evidence that must be provided is among the highest in the nation.

2. With this level of evidence and the danger of imminent harm, the constitutional balance is swayed toward the interest of public safety.

3. The respondent does not lose ownership of firearms, respondent may transfer them to someone for safekeeping.

4. Unlike regular orders of protection, it is constitutional because the order is not final until the person has their day in court, which must happen within a relative short period of time.

5. In cases of mental illness, the Mental Health Act can and most likely will be implemented and a mental evaluation ordered by the judge at the same time.

6. In the case of someone being menacing and making threats, an arrest warrant can and most likely will be issued at the same time.

7. With the level of evidence required and the stiff penalties for false testimony, there is a reduced likelihood of abuse in filing a petition for a FRO.

 

And thank YOU, Molly and others, for the stringency of the IL BIll.


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#18 kevinmcc

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 10:18 PM

Will be the same thing here if the legislation the house and senate passed will become law.


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#19 Euler

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 11:46 PM

Will be the same thing here if the legislation the house and senate passed will become law.


Welcome to Monday. It should be law by noon.

#20 Molly B.

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 05:54 AM

IN NJ (no due process)
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=j9eVJ37EOoI


Will be the same thing here if the legislation the house and senate passed will become law.

This is not true.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#21 2A4Cook

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 06:48 AM

I despise ex parte ANYTHING when there is ANY opportunity to give at least some kind of notice, even if it is only an email, phone call or a text message. This is 2018, not 1978, when "notice" meant the US mail or personal service by a deputy.

#22 Raw Power

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 06:03 AM

 

If you are a firearm owner, don't go to New Jersey.  Don't live in New Jersey.   Stay far, far, far away from New Jersey!

Truer words have never been said.

 

 

I'd widen that to say that if you are a person, don't go to New Jersey.



#23 vito

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 06:35 AM

Its amazing how easily people get used to and get comfortable living in an environment that you would think would be intolerable for Americans, I know a number of people who live, seemingly happily, in New Jersey. None of these are still working, all are retired. All complain about the ridiculously high taxes on everything, some complain about the denial of their 2nd Amendment rights (this would be a deal breaker for me for sure) but none of them are planning to leave anytime soon. They have accommodated to the tyranny and dominance by the Democrats, and for some, it is seen as a better alternative to the life they had in New York City where all of the negatives apply that afflict NJ, plus the crowding, high crime, and even higher taxes for those living in NYC,

My NY and NJ relatives do not understand me when I complain that my visiting them feels like I am traveling to a foreign, and unfriendly country. I tell them that when I leave that area, and cross back into Pennsylvania, I feel like I have returned to the United States from an overseas visit. Frankly, growing up in NYC I never really questioned the reality of (even then, over 50 years ago) being virtually totally denied my Constitutional rights. I had to go through an involuntary move to Texas as a young man, based on my military obligation, to have my eyes opened to what freedom really looks like. After just a short time living in Texas I vowed to never again live where I could not exercise my 2nd Amendment rights, at least to an extent that was acceptable.

It would be amusing to show this thread to my NJ friends and relatives, although I know that they would not really read it. But if they did, they would be confused by the attitude of those complaining about their state. Living under the rules that they have always lived under is their normal, and they will never allow themselves to see things differently. Worst of all, when some of these people move to a free state, instead of reveling in the newly discovered American freedom, they retreat into advocating for converting their new home into the heck hole of their former home.

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#24 BigJim

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 12:13 PM

Don't  worry about these red flag laws.  The fine people who run the pro 2A movement in Illinois have assured us this will never happen here.  Even if you are red flagged an impartial judge will vacate the order and the freedom loving prosecutor will file felony charges against your accuser.


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#25 papa

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 12:58 PM

Don't  worry about these red flag laws.  The fine people who run the pro 2A movement in Illinois have assured us this will never happen here.  Even if you are red flagged an impartial judge will vacate the order and the freedom loving prosecutor will file felony charges against your accuser.

Maybe those people who run the 2A movement should just say to heck with it and quit. Then all the complainers could be happy right..... well?  On the other hand maybe everyone who is complaining should look at what was stopped in the way of bad bills and be happy they didn't loose more.

 

This is Illinois and the Dems run the state. We were lucky JB wasn't at the helm this year.



#26 Molly B.

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 01:30 PM

Maybe BigJim should drop whatever he is doing and volunteer to spend precious, never to be regained, years of his life dealing with legislators who cannot be trusted, fighting for a cause that is not popular, in a red state that would just as soon strike the Second Amendment from the Constitution.

 

Sounds good, don't you think?


"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#27 ilphil

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 07:03 PM

Maybe BigJim should drop whatever he is doing and volunteer to spend precious, never to be regained, years of his life dealing with legislators who cannot be trusted, fighting for a cause that is not popular, in a red state that would just as soon strike the Second Amendment from the Constitution.

 

Sounds good, don't you think?

Unfortunately Molly that is exactly why many of us are skeptical and reluctant to hand ANYTHING to the left without a struggle. 

They will never be satisfied with what we give, never quit trying to take more and more. The recent attempt to roll back preemption is a prime example of that.



#28 BigJim

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 10:22 AM

Maybe BigJim should drop whatever he is doing and volunteer to spend precious, never to be regained, years of his life dealing with legislators who cannot be trusted, fighting for a cause that is not popular, in a red state that would just as soon strike the Second Amendment from the Constitution.

 

Sounds good, don't you think?

I make my calls, file my witness slips and send emails.  Been doing it for years.  I also put together one of the cc town halls when we were having them.  Unfortunately I work for a living so I can't spend my days meeting with these politicians, besides given my feelings for politicians you probably wouldn't want me as the face of our side.


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I will not be commanded,
I will not be controlled
And I will not let my future go on,
without the help of my soul

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#29 Molly B.

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 10:41 AM

I make my calls, file my witness slips and send emails.  Been doing it for years.  I also put together one of the cc town halls when we were having them.  Unfortunately I work for a living so I can't spend my days meeting with these politicians, besides given my feelings for politicians you probably wouldn't want me as the face of our side.

 

 

 

LOL, I hear you!


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#30 Lou

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 05:59 PM

 

Maybe BigJim should drop whatever he is doing and volunteer to spend precious, never to be regained, years of his life dealing with legislators who cannot be trusted, fighting for a cause that is not popular, in a red state that would just as soon strike the Second Amendment from the Constitution.

 

Sounds good, don't you think?

I make my calls, file my witness slips and send emails.  Been doing it for years.  I also put together one of the cc town halls when we were having them.  Unfortunately I work for a living so I can't spend my days meeting with these politicians, besides given my feelings for politicians you probably wouldn't want me as the face of our side.

 

 

I get the feeling you don't like politicians. 

The word  POLITICIAN is derived from the word POLITICS.

 

Politics = POLI as in many and TICS as in blood sucking parasites 

Thus ends my lesson for today. :frantics:


People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -  George Orwell

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