Xwing Posted August 19, 2013 at 10:46 PM Share Posted August 19, 2013 at 10:46 PM We all know the only purpose of both of these laws is as a step to Universal Background checks and Universal Registration. After this law, they will be able to build a gun registry of all firearms owned by citizens (over time). It will make it very easy for them if they ever can muster the political will for confiscation. By itself, it is only a minor annoyance. But what it leads up to is scary beyond belief. Reading the bill it seems like only the FOID information is entered, no make, model or serial number which is needed to build a registry. Do I understand that correctly? Yes... For this round. But I think it's an obvious step to move toward a full gun DB. After this is live for a few months, how hard would it be to pass a "minor" adjustment to add the Firearm serial number to the same phonecall. Come on, it's only a few more clicks on your phone's keypads. It's simple and no harm. We're doing it all for the Children... Can't you spend another 20 seconds, for the children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defaultdotxbe Posted August 19, 2013 at 11:16 PM Share Posted August 19, 2013 at 11:16 PM We all know the only purpose of both of these laws is as a step to Universal Background checks and Universal Registration. After this law, they will be able to build a gun registry of all firearms owned by citizens (over time). It will make it very easy for them if they ever can muster the political will for confiscation. By itself, it is only a minor annoyance. But what it leads up to is scary beyond belief. Reading the bill it seems like only the FOID information is entered, no make, model or serial number which is needed to build a registry. Do I understand that correctly? Yes... For this round. But I think it's an obvious step to move toward a full gun DB. After this is live for a few months, how hard would it be to pass a "minor" adjustment to add the Firearm serial number to the same phonecall. Come on, it's only a few more clicks on your phone's keypads. It's simple and no harm. We're doing it all for the Children... Can't you spend another 20 seconds, for the children?"To make sure it isn't stolen or hasn't been used in a crime" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cshipley92 Posted August 20, 2013 at 01:26 AM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 01:26 AM "This legislation makes perfect sense," said Grau, who spent 28 years with the Chicago Police Department. "It will make my officers safer and our communities safer." Uh, no it won't, because the only people who will comply with it are those who are already law abiding citizens. Yes, it might keep a few whose FOID's have been yanked but who haven't surrendered the actual card from purchasing a firearm from an unsuspecting honest citizen. But the number of those will be small because most criminals wouldn't take that chance, and most don't have a FOID to begin with. This is nothing more than a "feel good law" that does nothing but force lawful gun owners to make a phone call before selling a firearm. Personally, I think they should have passed a law creating the check and made it voluntary. Many of us here would call just to be safe and wouldn't have thought twice about it. Now many citizens are angry because the government is forcing them to do something they think is a waste of time. Sad, isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie Posted August 20, 2013 at 01:42 AM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 01:42 AM Would someone please tell me how this got signed into law? I don't remember anything about the bill. Is this something Quinn just slipped us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cshipley92 Posted August 20, 2013 at 01:47 AM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 01:47 AM Would someone please tell me how this got signed into law? I don't remember anything about the bill. Is this something Quinn just slipped us? No, it wasn't just Quinn. I think there was some horse trading done, ie, passage of this bill in exchange for votes on FCCA. This was called for a vote right after the veto override session and it caught everyone flat footed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WtJen Posted August 20, 2013 at 03:55 AM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 03:55 AM The more laws Illinois passes, the more practiced I become in ignoring them. Illinois's propensity to pass laws reminds me of the quote from Atlas Shrugged. Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargeezer Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:30 AM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:30 AM The more laws Illinois passes, the more practiced I become in ignoring them. Illinois's propensity to pass laws reminds me of the quote from Atlas Shrugged. Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.” Every day it seems we are closer to what Rand envisioned in her novel. Illinois also seems closer to Starnsville each day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLR Rider Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:07 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:07 PM That's cute. So here's how one could imagine this unfolding in about 10 years. Police: "Sir, firearms have been outlawed in the US. We're here to collect all arms and ammunition"Citizen: "Well, see officer, that's a problem, I lost them all in a lake while fishing/camping/skydiving/astronauting/whatever, so sorry, I don't have anything to turn in"Police: "That's odd, we don't have a record of you reporting any firearms missing. Can you explain that?"Citizen: "Oh, ah, well, um..."Police: "Sir, you're going to have to come with us while we search your house, car, yard, shed, dog's intestines, treehouse, etc." Maybe I should buy stock in Reynolds Wrap. 1. I don't have any firearms. 2. I turned them all in at a no questions asked gun turn in... are you now asking me questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLR Rider Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:13 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:13 PM Removed, answerd by MollyB in the middle of the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defaultdotxbe Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:19 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:19 PM I agree with not wanting firearms getting in the wrong hands, but maybe they should enforce the laws already in place, as in physically taking the foid away from somebody, instead of us hsving to verify the validity of the foid in question. And if theres a recorded transaction number for every transfer, the state has basically started a registry of all firearms. I haven't had the time to read the full text of the bill (like I usually do, and will do si as soon as I get home), but that's what I'm getting from this. I'm not sure, but does any of the transfered firearm information need to be entered to do the FOID card check? I've been trying to find out if any "transfer data" needs to be submitted (perhaps that is the next step). If my understanding is correct, at this time, it's simply verifying that the FOID in question is still valid at the time the private transfer is to occure, not that data on that transfer is required to be documented. I may be wrong, please, someone with better info jump in here and say so.Its just a FOID verification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyGuy Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:25 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:25 PM It's just FOID verification.It's just recording the FOID verification.It's just recording the firearm with the FOID verification.It's just holding on to the records of firearm with FOID verification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockerXX Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:29 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 04:29 PM Its just a FOID verificationIt's a foot in the door towards a registration database... Is anyone here naive enough to believe that now with a foot in the door we won't face a relentless push to make it more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defaultdotxbe Posted August 20, 2013 at 05:23 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 05:23 PM Its just a FOID verificationIt's a foot in the door towards a registration database... Is anyone here naive enough to believe that now with a foot in the door we won't face a relentless push to make it more?I don't think TLR was asking what it will become in the future, just what it is at this time. And for the moment its just a FOID verification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLR Rider Posted August 20, 2013 at 06:32 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 06:32 PM Yes, I'm the "go to guy" at work and in my faimly for "gun news" so I'm trying to be accurate with them about what the current law includes. Problem is that one guy at work is in the county of "crook" and literally has the city of chicago on three sides. He has to drive west to go to indiana if he has firearms in the vehicle. I know cook county has the "lost, stolen, or transfered" verbage, but I don't/won't live in crook county. I can see it becomming a gun owners database in the future, but just was looking for info on the current state wide law. Thanks all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockerXX Posted August 20, 2013 at 06:44 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 06:44 PM but just was looking for info on the current state wide law. In that case it's only a lost and stolen reporting law at this point, the FOID verification doesn't go in effect until next year... But it begs, can the ISP actually get a reliable and functional FOID verification system open to the public in place in the next few months? http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/98/098-0508.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLR Rider Posted August 20, 2013 at 06:56 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 06:56 PM well, and understand that I'm using common sense here, but. shouldn't there already exist a database, or just a list of all vaild FOID cards held by residents in Illinois. you should be able to take that list and question it with a FOID number and have a nearly instant confirmation that the FOID card is active, and vaild... perhaps they give you a code or something to say that the query was done on this day, at this time and is vaild for 24 hours... but seems doable to me.. heck I can find my neighbors weber grill he has on Ebay in 2 seconds with Ebay's posting number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockerXX Posted August 20, 2013 at 07:02 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 07:02 PM you should be able to take that list and question it with a FOID number and have a nearly instant confirmation that the FOID card is active, and vaild... Kind of like the NICS system can do a background check for firearm eligibility, but it take IL months to do the same check so they can issue a FOID? No doubt it can be done, but we are dealing with the ISP that doesn't exactly have a stellar track record for efficiency... Remember there are several reports on this forum where members have been on hold in excess of one hour to simply check the status of their FOID application, that is if they get through at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnyb82 Posted August 20, 2013 at 11:07 PM Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 11:07 PM They run every FOID card holder through the state databases on a nightly basis so basically they run the same background required for a FOID minus the NICS check...on however many hundred thousand (million?) people in one day. But they take months to do it for one applicant. Makes sense...nope heh. Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGDEESUL Posted August 21, 2013 at 12:24 AM Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 12:24 AM I don't have a problem with the lost/stolen reporting requirement. That's something thst a responsible gun owner should do anyway. Don't like penalties, but if my firearm is stolen, damn straight I'm gonna report it stolen. I wouldn't want to deal with the BS if it were found at a crime scene and I didn't report it stolen. And lost? I can't see how any responsible owner could "lose" a gun. I mean, it's possible but come on. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockerXX Posted August 21, 2013 at 12:36 AM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 12:36 AM And lost? I can't see how any responsible owner could "lose" a gun. I mean, it's possible but come on There will be people the lose guns, everyone jokes about boating accidents but the reality is they do happen and will happen especially for water fowl hunters in a blind or boat or others on a outdoor outing in a boat, sometimes things just happen... Or what happens when your luggage that contains a firearm goes missing at the airport, you can't exactly file a stolen property report for lost luggage... There are others as well, and I'll bet it's not as rare as people might think... Heck the US Park Police lost 1000s of firearms... http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-27/local/40230084_1_u-s-park-police-police-force-weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnyb82 Posted August 21, 2013 at 01:17 AM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 01:17 AM I can't wait until some airline loses (or a baggage handler steals a gun out of) a hunter's luggage but he (or she) doesn't find out until they're in the middle of bufu nowhere Alaska with no way to possibly even make a phone call much less go to a PD and report it maybe lost, maybe stolen, who knows. Then said hunter is charged with violating the lost/stolen statute when he or she returns to IL for reporting it, well, not within the 72 hour periodm. I'd like to see how the state would define "as soon as practical" when you're in the middle of nowhere. Would jumping on a plane and flying to (insert town with police who have access to AK's LEADS here) to comply with an asinine Illinois law be considered practical? Could one even file a report as it could've disappeared....anywhere along the way. Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl B. Andersen Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:05 AM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:05 AM I'm a bit confused as to how many publications calls this bill "universal background check".?Seems as if, from what I could find, it only moves the state TOWARD UBCs. "HB 1189 amends the FOID Card Act to require that a private party who sells or transfers a firearm use ISP’s dial-up system to verify that the buyer or transferee holds a valid FOID card before making the sale or transfer." That is NOT a universal background check.It just validates the possession of a valid FOID. Which, as I recall, Illinois residents are requried to do now already. Aren't you supposed to keep your buyer's FOID numer for 10 years anyway?And there is no record of the sale. More BS - yes. UBC - no. But the sh** just keeps on rollin' down hill. Then you missed my point.I just said THIS new 'thing' is not a UBC like they're calling it. Allow me to correct you. Illinois has Universal Background Checks, and has had them for many years. They are tied up in the FOID Act. Possession of firearms without FOID is unlawful. FOID issuance mandates background check. Thus, you already have UBC in Illinois. Let's not go needlessly splitting hairs. FOID cards are background checks, and now this new mandate that some hotline be called is basically a redundancy. But at some level, you are correct that they are not universal ... because not included are those folks who do not comply with the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neumann Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:21 AM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:21 AM It doesn't matter if it takes a couple of hours to get a confirmation. You have to hold a handgun for 72 hours and long gun for 24 hours, just the same as a store or FFL. The new law didn't change that, just the documentation. In the unlikely event I sell a gun, I will download a 4473 and complete it for my records. If it isn't documented, it didn't happen the way you said it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defaultdotxbe Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:37 AM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:37 AM Then you missed my point.I just said THIS new 'thing' is not a UBC like they're calling it. Allow me to correct you. Illinois has Universal Background Checks, and has had them for many years. They are tied up in the FOID Act. Possession of firearms without FOID is unlawful. FOID issuance mandates background check. Thus, you already have UBC in Illinois. Let's not go needlessly splitting hairs. FOID cards are background checks, and now this new mandate that some hotline be called is basically a redundancy. But at some level, you are correct that they are not universal ... because not included are those folks who do not comply with the law.Its disingenuous to call the FOID a background check, it just means that at some point the last 10 years you passed a background check (since it doesn't magically disappear from your wallet if you get a felony conviction or something) So the FOID doesn't render a check redundant, if anything having to call in to verify the FOID renders the FOID redundant. You have to consider why the FOID exists, back in 1968 it was not feasible to run an instant (or even near-instant) check on someone buying a gun, so the FOID was adopted to be the next-best thing. In the time since we now have the ability to run instant checks (and they are required at FFLs and gun shows) as well as waiting periods, rendering the need for "instant" checks moot anyway. If anything IL should eliminate the FOID and just require a BG check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wi300 Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:41 AM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:41 AM Would someone please tell me how this got signed into law? I don't remember anything about the bill. Is this something Quinn just slipped us? Leave the state. We in Wisconsin or Indiana could use you and would love you here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockerXX Posted August 21, 2013 at 04:02 AM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 04:02 AM It doesn't matter if it takes a couple of hours to get a confirmation. Sure it does, how are you going to get that confirmation number? Wait on hold for a few hours until they get back to you? Maybe call them back at a later time and 'hope' you get an answer then? Or are you suspecting they will call you when they are good and ready to anser? If it's not instant it's going to cause issues... The NICS system is already annoying to many FFLs when they toss up the 'delayed' response instead of the instant yes/no especially in States with no waiting period where the customer expects to walk out with the gun but can't... I have heard Walmart (and some other FFLs) won't even complete the sale of the gun if they get a 'delayed' response from NICS even though they can in 3 days... All we can do is wait for IL to come up with something and hope it works and they don't charge some stupid amount per check... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTX63 Posted August 21, 2013 at 08:56 AM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 08:56 AM Would someone please tell me how this got signed into law? I don't remember anything about the bill. Is this something Quinn just slipped us? Leave the state. We in Wisconsin or Indiana could use you and would love you here. Fight or flight people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tvandermyde Posted August 21, 2013 at 12:54 PM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 12:54 PM I can't wait until some airline loses (or a baggage handler steals a gun out of) a hunter's luggage but he (or she) doesn't find out until they're in the middle of bufu nowhere Alaska with no way to possibly even make a phone call much less go to a PD and report it maybe lost, maybe stolen, who knows. Then said hunter is charged with violating the lost/stolen statute when he or she returns to IL for reporting it, well, not within the 72 hour periodm. I'd like to see how the state would define "as soon as practical" when you're in the middle of nowhere. Would jumping on a plane and flying to (insert town with police who have access to AK's LEADS here) to comply with an asinine Illinois law be considered practical? Could one even file a report as it could've disappeared....anywhere along the way. Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2 i don;t see where it has to be reported to Illinois law enforcement. So make a report to the local PD in Kenya, and be done with it. Then walk out of the airport and finish your hunting trip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vess1 Posted August 21, 2013 at 02:53 PM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 02:53 PM I just read the article. I like the last part. Yes, sure Pat. The people legally purchasing firearms to then transfer to gang members will "in all likelihood" call in to make sure the gang member has a valid foid. Lol They were already committing a crime doing straw purchases. Now theyll SURELY think twice! What a joke. Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLR Rider Posted August 21, 2013 at 04:46 PM Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 04:46 PM I don't have a problem with the lost/stolen reporting requirement. That's something thst a responsible gun owner should do anyway. Don't like penalties, but if my firearm is stolen, damn straight I'm gonna report it stolen. I wouldn't want to deal with the BS if it were found at a crime scene and I didn't report it stolen. And lost? I can't see how any responsible owner could "lose" a gun. I mean, it's possible but come on. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2 I think one of Bill Inval's jokes is "you might be a red neck if you have ever lost a gun in your house and didn't know about it" actually... yes... I went deer hunting with my brother and he borrowed a shot gun from me. We get home and I put the hard cases up in the attic and didn't think about it. about 2 months later I'm trying to find the Browning 20ga my brother used to harvest his first deer and I can't find it. Checking the gun safe... thinking maybe he has it to clean an what have you. come around to deer season the next year... go up in the attic to get the hard case.. hummm, this feels kinda heavy... open it up, yep, there is the Browning. Well whadaya know.. This BS is purely from the criminal intent side and it will not work to prevent it. the arguement is that when the cops show up after finding a gun at a crime scene and ask the "owner" who has been found through trace information on the weapon and ask the owner where the gun is. The straw purchaser says, "dang, that gun was stolen a year ago"... LEO's, "did you report it stolen", the straw purchaser, "ummm, no" So lets revisit that conversation now "post lost/stolen reporting requirements" LEO's " Mr. Smith, Do you own a Smith & Wesson Modle 19 .357 Mag, serial number XXXXXXXX?" Straw buyer, "why yes I do" LEO's, "do you have it, may we see it? Straw purchaser, "why yes, it's right here in my gun safe. Ca'mon in, I'll get it." Straw purchaser opens gun safe and is all gob smacked that the gun has been lost or stolen. Straw purchaser, "well officers, it appears that the gun has been lost/stolen, I'll be sure to report it with in the next 72 hours to the authorities.... thank you, have a nice day, here is your hat, there is the door." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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