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Do I have to submit finger prints while applying for my ccl?


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#1 Chicago312

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 05:58 PM

is it mandatory to submit finger prints with your ccl application? I had a few arrest that were expunged and sealed but my finger prints apparently are still on file. Any way to get my finger prints out of the "system"? , , or even my dna sample?

#2 InterestedBystander

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 06:15 PM

Fingerprints are not required although some in the legislature would like to change that. The ISP gets an extra 30 days to process apps without prints.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 07 November 2017 - 06:20 PM.

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#3 spec5

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 07:33 PM

OP your questions should be answered by your lawyer. Although to answer the first question Fingerprints are not required to get a CCL. Fingerprints or help to identify your identity. The NCIC check is run by the state police.

Edited by spec5, 07 November 2017 - 07:35 PM.

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#4 Chicago312

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 07:57 PM

Thanks again fellas! And I never had a lawyer, I joined this forum a convicted felon looking for answers and with the help of Molly B and a few others, I was able to vacate my felony conviction and expunge/seal my recorded all without the help of a pricey lawyer. I am currently a foid card holder and every questioned that I had, has been answered by the good people on this forum. Thanks again for all the insight and assistance. You all don't know how much I appreciate everyone's help!

#5 Gamma

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:36 PM

Fingerprints are not required under the statute, but are required by ISP if you desire to become an instructor. Also in some instances of appeals or review board referrals, fingerprints have apparently been required.

As far as "the system", once you have given "the system" your fingerprints they will never be "out of the system".
Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#6 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:03 AM

As far as "the system", once you have given "the system" your fingerprints they will never be "out of the system".


Exactly why I will never give fingerprints. My biometric data of any kind is none of the government's business.

#7 InterestedBystander

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:36 AM

As far as "the system", once you have given "the system" your fingerprints they will never be "out of the system".

Exactly why I will never give fingerprints. My biometric data of any kind is none of the government's business.
Just throwing this out there...read a discussion on a forum where it was claimed there were 2 types of prints: criminal and identity/background. Supposedly criminal was forever. Identity/bg prints were run and if it got no hits, the claim was those were discarded after a set period of time. They never came back with more info when questioned.
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#8 Mick G

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 03:15 AM

Once you are in or checked against IAFIS your prints are in that system forever. It is part of the NGI system and supposedly not only are they trying to build the largest fingerprinting system to ever exist but also a worldwide system to instantly ID someone. I'm not the conspiracy nut but have a VERY good idea on how facial recognition and iris identification works. AFR systems are almost impossible to fool and are the standard for the REAL ID. That national REAL ID system will eventually have your face combined with your prints in it. As of right now they have roughly a third of the US population in it matched with prints, criminal and just the general populous. That includes me, it took 9 seconds to positively ID me in a test 6 years ago through facial recognition. It is basically a way to instantly ID someone. The people born today in the US might never actually need a physical ID or DL.


If you have ever had your fingerprints put into the system for ANY reason, they are there forever. There is no known way to get your prints out of the system and they are actually matched with your face. You might want to look into say India and their biometric systems.


Bitter Clinger I hate to be the buzz kill but your biometric data is very much part of the governments business. If you have a REAL ID DL they are halfway home. I suspect when it comes time for CCL renewals they may insist on fingerprints. If so then Orwell was only about 30 years off. They have been working on this for roughly about 50 years and in most countries are almost finished. 1984 is here today and will 100% complete in ten years.



#9 soundguy

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 08:33 AM

Short article on fingerprints:
 

 

If your fingerprints were taken by a government agency, they were likely sent to the FBI’s fingerprint repository in Clarksburg, WV. This used to be done with paper tenprint cards (and still is, in some cases), but most agencies take and transmit the prints electronically now. The prints get added to a database, which, as you might expect, is huge. The U.S. Department of Justice has been collecting fingerprint records since 1905.

 


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#10 Mick G

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 09:41 AM

 

Short article on fingerprints:
 

 

If your fingerprints were taken by a government agency, they were likely sent to the FBI’s fingerprint repository in Clarksburg, WV. This used to be done with paper tenprint cards (and still is, in some cases), but most agencies take and transmit the prints electronically now. The prints get added to a database, which, as you might expect, is huge. The U.S. Department of Justice has been collecting fingerprint records since 1905.

 

 

 

Basically while true, even the old paper ink print cards have been converted into a digitized format and are in the IAFIS system in Clarksburg, WV. That is operated by the Criminal Justice Information Services of the FBI. That data base is so enormous that it even stores all latent prints that are sent when the local PDs do not get a match.

 

Trying not be insulting but that is the closest thing to fact that I have ever read on Quora. While Wikipedia has a lot of British editors who may or may not have a clue, usually Quora is written by people in India and some of the answers are absurd. This answer is spot on except for no mention of the old ink cars being converted digitally and the implementation of the NGI system.

 

Just when you thought it was already a bit too invasive, the FBI rolled out NGI in 2011. Here's the present and the future from the FBI:

 

https://www.fbi.gov/...-biometrics/ngi

 

Like it or not Biometrics is the future and here to stay.



#11 soundguy

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 10:00 AM

 

Trying not be insulting but that is the closest thing to fact that I have ever read on Quora. While Wikipedia has a lot of British editors who may or may not have a clue, usually Quora is written by people in India and some of the answers are absurd. This answer is spot on except for no mention of the old ink cards being converted digitally and the implementation of the NGI system.

 

 

Quora just popped up in a quick search.

I'll keep an eye out should it ever appear again.

 

Thanks!


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#12 Mick G

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 10:56 AM

I honestly wasn't trying to be insulting in anyway but to explore Quora freely you have to register unlike Wikipedia. I registered and left within  about a week because it is literally a bunch of Indians. I have nothing personally against Indians but when somebody from Mumbai answers a question about how it is to be born and raised in Chicago and they obviously have never even been here, It makes you go Hmmm?

You should actually check it out, I found it interesting for a week.

 

https://www.quora.co...ular-in-India-2

 

Just to keep the thread on track, Chicago312 your prints are in the system forever and as for your DNA I honestly don't know but I would think you could get a court order. You might only get some lip service and your swab back. The actual DNA results will probably still be in the system but that's all conjecture. An attorney would probably have a answer good or bad. None of that comes into play anymore so I wouldn't worry about it.



#13 Gamma

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 01:37 PM

There are also apparently instructors out there who either give out misinformation that fingerprints are required or really try to coerce everyone into getting fingerprinted. There are also some who do so for financial reasons.

Edited by Gamma, 12 November 2017 - 01:41 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#14 oohrah

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 07:46 PM

And just to put a finer point on this, if you are an eligible non-resident, you can't submit fingerprints unless you actually come to IL, because the vendor won't take prints out of state.  I got my IL CCL in 100 days w/o prints.

 

(PS - Texas uses the exact same vendor, but I still couldn't go to them for IL prints)


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#15 smokedaddy

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:59 PM

Fingerprints are not mandatory.  ISP is allocated 90 days to approve and issue your license if you submit your prints.  They are allocated 120 days if you do not submit them.  I did not submit prints and received my license in 90 days.   

 

I also have been arrested for a street fight.  The charge was battery (not domestic battery).  My record showed a non conviction because I completed court supervision so I was able to get the arrest expunged.  I filed the expungement with local police, state police, and FBI.  I was told that the FBI manages the fingerprint database.  I have since applied for jobs that required background checks and fingerprints, all came back clean.   I also ran checks on my own and there were no record at local police, state police, or FBI. 


Edited by smokedaddy, 15 November 2017 - 05:09 PM.


#16 Mick G

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:39 PM

Fingerprints are not mandatory.  ISP is allocated 90 days to approve and issue your license if you submit your prints.  They are allocated 120 days if you do not submit them.  I did not submit prints and received my license in 90 days.   

 

I also have been arrested for a street fight.  The charge was battery (not domestic battery).  My record showed a non conviction because I completed court supervision so I was able to get the arrest expunged.  I filed the expungement with local police, state police, and FBI.  I was told that the FBI manages the fingerprint database.  I have since applied for jobs that required background checks and fingerprints, all came back clean.   I also ran checks on my own and there were no record at local police, state police, or FBI. 

 

I hope this helps you understand on how the NGI system works. If you were booked and printed, your prints are in that system. Your background checks come back clean because your record was expunged, it's very much like submitting prints with a CCL application. Your prints are put into the NGI system and checked against any unknowns. If no unknowns, you are clean. It's the same as joining the military, you are printed. Eventually those prints find their way into the FBIs NGI system. The only time it would come into play is if say you committed a crime and left your prints. Any unknown print that was run through NGI would come back to you. Just because your prints are in the NGI system does not mean anything bad. Its basically just a way keeping track of people in the U.S. This better explains it:

https://www.fbi.gov/...-biometrics/ngi

 

This is even better when it comes to expunged records:

 

The fingerprints remain in the database, but the record of the arrest or conviction will be removed if the state properly reports the expungement to the FBI. If a certified or authenticated copy of a court ordered expungement is submitted to the FBI along with a Final Disposition Report, the FBI will remove the record of the criminal arrest but not the record of the fingerprints themselves. An expungement is a deletion of a single arrest or an entire arrest record. Each state employs unique forms for submitting expungement information to the FBI’s Criminal Justice Information Services Division. To ensure that the Criminal History Record at the FBI is expunged, the following information should be on every expungement request, regardless of the form used: Arrestee’s name; date of birth or FBI number; the state’s expungement terminology (e.g., delete, expunge, purge, etc.); the date of arrest; the charge or charges to be removed; a copy of court order (in accordance with state guidelines); and a state bureau stamp or letterhead (in accordance with state guidelines).

 

Once the FBI has your fingerprints, it's forever. It's 100% legal for the FBI to lie to you but it's illegal for you to lie to the FBI.

Real ID and fingerprints are the future. Biometrics are hard to fool now and are only getting better every year.



#17 aka

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 11:42 AM

 I attended the ISP Class on taking and managing fingerprints a couple of years ago. 

 

Once your fingerprints are taken they are in the system.

 

On the other hand Fingerprints taken can be used only for the purpose they were taken for. 

 

This means that when you submit your fingerprints say for a job at the airport - your fingerprints enter the system but can only be used for approving you for the job at the airport.

Once your application is processed, the fingerprints are discarded by the agency and not shared. 

 

They cannot be used by the ISP for approving you for CCL . You must provide a fresh set of fingerprints for that. 


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#18 InterestedBystander

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:10 PM

8
Once your application is processed, the fingerprints are discarded by the agency and not shared. 

Can you clarify about the discarding?
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#19 Mick G

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:11 PM

 I attended the ISP Class on taking and managing fingerprints a couple of years ago. 

 

Once your fingerprints are taken they are in the system.

 

On the other hand Fingerprints taken can be used only for the purpose they were taken for. 

 

This means that when you submit your fingerprints say for a job at the airport - your fingerprints enter the system but can only be used for approving you for the job at the airport.

Once your application is processed, the fingerprints are discarded by the agency and not shared. 

 

They cannot be used by the ISP for approving you for CCL . You must provide a fresh set of fingerprints for that. 

 

"They cannot be used by the ISP for approving you for CCL. You must provide a fresh set of fingerprints for that."

 

That part is true. The rest of it is not. The FBI is trying to build a biometric data base of EVERY person in the USA. That is the NGI system. The FBI tells you this right on the webpage explaining part of the NGI system:

"The CJIS Division, with guidance from the user community, developed the NGI System to meet the evolving business needs of its IAFIS customers". Translation - Once you are printed the you are in the system. When you are printed for a CCL or any other reason, your prints are run through that system for possible matches. That system which was AFIS and is now part of the NGI system. Once your prints are in that system, even its for a background check, they never come out.

 

Example: Next year you are applying for a CCL and you get your prints taken by a live scan vendor. What do you think those prints are used for? To verify your identity. The are put through the NGI system and one of three things happen. Your prints come back identifying you from that "job at the airport" and prove your identity, they come back as NO HIT and clean but are left in the NGI system for future identification purposes OR they come back as a possible match to a criminal past or unidentified prints left at a crime scene and then you have some explaining to do.

 

Everybody who joins the military is fingerprinted. If you apply for a CCL you get printed by a Live scan service and those prints identify you and you get your CCL license in 40 days. You don't get live scanned and you get your CCL in 100 days. Why the difference? To annoy you? No, because you are instantly identified as the person applying for the CCL.

 

This is from the Illinois State Police Website:

 

Live scan is an inkless electronic system designed to capture an individual’s fingerprint images and demographic data (name, sex, race, date of birth, etc.) in a digitized format that can be transmitted to the Illinois State Police (ISP) for processing. Once received at the BOI for processing, the inquiry can then be forwarded to the FBI electronically for processing. All of this occurs within minutes and results in a biometric identification of an individual with little to no human intervention. Live scan can be used for criminal justice as well as non-criminal justice use.

 

The last two sentences being key: "All of this occurs within minutes and results in a biometric identification of an individual with little to no human intervention. Live scan can be used for criminal justice as well as non-criminal justice use."

 

That's the reason for the differences in wait times. If you think the FBI is just going to delete your fingerprints from the NGI system, to put it nicely that isn't going to happen. They will have all of those prints matched with your "REAL ID" photo and the government will be able to identify you instantly. 

 

Biometrics is here to stay.


Edited by Mick G, 10 December 2017 - 08:13 PM.


#20 Quiet Observer

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:33 PM

Among the uses of fingerprints is to identify bodies found with any identification.  If the prints did not remain in the system, that could not be done.  I believe that the prints that I submitted for my CCL verified that I am the same person who raised his hand in 1965 to become a member of the USN.  I have had so many prints done over the years, one more set is not going to make me more, or less, subject to Big Brother.  If I find my head in a rat cage next week, I will know I was wrong.

 

http://www.forensicsciencetechnician.org/8-body-parts-forensic-scientists-use-to-id-a-body/ 



#21 Mick G

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:48 PM

Among the uses of fingerprints is to identify bodies found with any identification.  If the prints did not remain in the system, that could not be done.  I believe that the prints that I submitted for my CCL verified that I am the same person who raised his hand in 1965 to become a member of the USN.  I have had so many prints done over the years, one more set is not going to make me more, or less, subject to Big Brother.  If I find my head in a rat cage next week, I will know I was wrong.

 

http://www.forensicsciencetechnician.org/8-body-parts-forensic-scientists-use-to-id-a-body/ 

 

That's OK if you have a REAL ID DL they will be able to identify you from your head or go old school and use dental records.

I'm positive you are correct so I wouldn't worry about a rat cage.

Big Brother loves you as long as you comply.






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