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Bringing the loaded magazine into the GFZ


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#1 jim123

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 02:38 PM

Is that ok? Thought it's better for society to leave the gun inside the holster with one bullet in the Lambo glove box and take the magazines. If someone breaks in and steals the gun they have only one bullet and the gun.



#2 Craigcelia

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 02:45 PM

Yes, you can take the ammo with you.  I wouldn't if it was a court house but otherwise it's fine.



#3 mauserme

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 02:46 PM

There's nothing regulating the magazine (other than, potentially, local ordinance regarding capacity).  Illinois residents will need a valid FOID card to possess the ammunition.

 

But I bet if they get the gun they won't have any problem replacing the magazine.


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#4 jim123

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 03:14 PM

Ok. Thanks, guys.



#5 ScopeEye

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 06:40 PM

What about a magazine in the post office


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#6 aka

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 06:45 PM

What about a magazine in the post office

Good question. That is federal property so I would be careful. 


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#7 dumpnpump

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 08:17 PM

If I find myself in a situation where I have to ungun, I make a practice of leaving the weapon with the round in the chamber.  If the weapon is stolen, it will not function without the mag.  I also have the serial number on a slip of paper in my wallet in the event I have to report it stolen.  


 


#8 soylentgreen

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 09:59 AM

If I find myself in a situation where I have to ungun, I make a practice of leaving the weapon with the round in the chamber.  If the weapon is stolen, it will not function without the mag.  I also have the serial number on a slip of paper in my wallet in the event I have to report it stolen.  

 

Having my gun stolen is one of the things I fear...but an even greater fear is being shot with my own gun after leaving it in my vehicle. Invest in a small lock box that can be attached to a seat support with a cable. It's not 100%, but it's certainly more secure than a glove box. They're cheap...like $30.

I've gone the extra step to get a small gun vault. I mounted it to the floor. I feel very confident the weapon is secure.



#9 InterestedBystander

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:06 PM

If I find myself in a situation where I have to ungun, I make a practice of leaving the weapon with the round in the chamber.  If the weapon is stolen, it will not function without the mag.  I also have the serial number on a slip of paper in my wallet in the event I have to report it stolen.

 
Having my gun stolen is one of the things I fear...but an even greater fear is being shot with my own gun after leaving it in my vehicle. Invest in a small lock box that can be attached to a seat support with a cable. It's not 100%, but it's certainly more secure than a glove box. They're cheap...like $30.
I've gone the extra step to get a small gun vault. I mounted it to the floor. I feel very confident the weapon is secure.
There are also some older threads here, probably in archives, where people showed hacks for beefing up or replacing the bicycle grade security cable on some of those.
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#10 chicagoresident

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:38 AM

The Faa considers the magazine a "box", but they also require it to be locked in a hard sided case.

Transporting other ways gets difficult because the laws are really vague.

http://www.ilga.gov/...SeqEnd=71400000

transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions:
(i) are broken down in a non-functioning state; or
(ii) are not immediately accessible; or
(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card

Nothing about the magazine. Removing the magazine may render the gun "in a non working state". Locking up the gun may make the gun "not easily accessible". And "case" or "box" are super broad. And you only have to meet one requirement.

This gives a lot of latitude both to a prosecuter and a defense attorney. Which is why people usually try to cover all 3 by removing the magazine (broken down) enclosing in a case and locking (not easily accessible).

What is the definition of "unloaded"? For gun people unloaded is not having one in the chamber. But I suspect when police say "loaded gun" they mean one in the chamber.

Unlawful use of a weapon is defined as among other things :
(3) One of the following factors is present:
(A) the firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or handgun, possessed was uncased, loaded, and immediately accessible at the time of the offense; or
(A-5) the pistol, revolver, or handgun possessed was uncased, loaded, and immediately accessible at the time of the offense and the person possessing the pistol, revolver, or handgun has not been issued a currently valid license under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act; or
(B) the firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,

or handgun, possessed was uncased, unloaded, and the ammunition for the weapon was immediately accessible at the time of the offense; or
(B-5) the pistol, revolver, or handgun possessed was uncased, unloaded, and the ammunition for the weapon was immediately accessible at the time of the offense and the person possessing the pistol, revolver, or handgun has not been issued a currently valid license under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act;

So further defines the firearm as being in violation uncased and the ammunition as "immediately accessible". But cased and the ammo accessesible is not illegal as long as the gun is not accessible.

Seems like any info you get here is going to be best guess. So either exceed the law or call and retain a lawyer for legal advice and defense.

Throw in local ordinances (protected under home rule) and good luck figuring any of this out.

BTW. That's a gun control feature, not a bug.

Edited by chicagoresident, 01 December 2017 - 09:43 AM.


#11 soundguy

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:08 AM

What is the definition of "unloaded"? For gun people unloaded is not having one in the chamber. But I suspect when police say "loaded gun" they mean one in the chamber.

 

 

Six Seconds to Safety.

 

As I recall, unloaded in Illinois means no rounds in the gun.

If your magazine is full, it can't be in the gun, but could be in the same case as the gun.

If  "fanny packing" (aka FOID Transporting), you could keep your ready magazine in the fanny pack with the gun or elsewhere in a more conveniently ready spot, retreive gun, insert magazine, rack the slide to load chamber and you would be ready to defend yourself.

 

Do not store a loaded magazine in the gun even if there is no round in the chamber when transporting in Illinois.

 

Other states have more restrictions.


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#12 chicagoresident

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:17 AM

I heard a gun store legal sage say that if fanny packing the magazine needs to be in a separate compartment as the gun.

What legal requirement does this satisfy?

Is there any case law around fanny pack carrying? I know it's been around forever before carrying in a lot of places became legal.

How is a fanny pack not easily as accessible as a zipped up procket? If I put a magazine in one zipped pocket and ammo in another zipped pocket in a h
Jacket is that legal? Or illegal, even though not as easily accessible. Is the fanny pack the case? How is a jacket with zipped up compartments not a case? What legally defines a case?

I've never heard "six seconds to safety", but is that legally tested, or rule of thumb?

Its a huge confusing legal gray area.

Edited by chicagoresident, 01 December 2017 - 10:23 AM.


#13 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:28 AM

..


Edited by AlphaKoncepts aka CGS, 01 December 2017 - 10:29 AM.

-Thomas

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#14 soundguy

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:24 AM

I heard a gun store legal sage say that if fanny packing the magazine needs to be in a separate compartment as the gun.

What legal requirement does this satisfy?

Is there any case law around fanny pack carrying? I know it's been around forever before carrying in a lot of places became legal.

How is a fanny pack not easily as accessible as a zipped up procket? If I put a magazine in one zipped pocket and ammo in another zipped pocket in a h
Jacket is that legal? Or illegal, even though not as easily accessible. Is the fanny pack the case? How is a jacket with zipped up compartments not a case? What legally defines a case?

I've never heard "six seconds to safety", but is that legally tested, or rule of thumb?

Its a huge confusing legal gray area.

 

This area is not that gray...

 

Here are some links for you to check out. There is likely more great info here at IC.

 

The last passage is from that ISP Brochure from 2011 in the link below somewhere. It's out of place due to formatting difficulties with copying from the PDF so I'm not gonna paste any other pertinent passages here.

 

Take a look at the ISP brochure about transporting a gun in Illinois. This is an older version from 2011, before CCW. The wildlife code was later updated to conform with the rest of the code.

 

Six Seconds To Safety was coined by John Birch, an early advocate of fanny pack carry, including carrying at several gun rights rallies in Chicago and at the Taste of Chicago. For a time he was giving away one gun a month, a Kel-Tek P3AT.

 

For case law re fanny pack carry, look up John Horstman who was awarded a settlement after being arrested by PD in DuPage County and found to be (legally) transporting his unloaded encased gun in a backpack.

 

A pocket is not a case. A fanny pack is. As long as the gun is unloaded, in a case and you have your FOID on your person you are compliant.

 

Inaccessible or broken down are not required if the other conditions are met... Unloaded and in a case with FOID.

 

Again... A jacket (or other clothing) is not a case because it is clothing. A holster or a pouch designed to be a covert holster is also not a case. A holster which fully encloses the gun is also not a case. A glove compartment, center console, fanny pack, paper bag, plastic bag, cardboard box, shipping container, backpack, brief case (you get the idea) are all are cases.

 

In Illinois it is legal to carry ammunition in the same case as your unloaded gun (which is in the case and you must have your FOID with you).

 

If I have gotten any of this wrong, I am certain others will chime in because it is pretty important.

 

 

 

I just reread the John Birch article from 8/1/2000 and felt I had to post part of it!

 

Concealed Carry, Inc., President John Birch stated, “This is a small, but
significant step forward in getting the right to self-defense back in
Illinois. Citizen safety has been significantly enhanced. Now instead of
waiting precious minutes or even hours for 911 to respond, citizens can
defend themselves in just six seconds.”

 

“We were surprised that Safe Neighborhoods Act sponsor Senator Tom Dart
would allow even this limited form of concealed carry, so maybe he’s not as
anti-gun as his public statements would lead us to believe.
We are
contacting all Illinois law enforcement agencies and State’s Attorney’s
offices with this information to insure they know not to arrest much less
prosecute Illinois citizens for carrying unloaded guns,” added Birch.

 

 

 

   IS IT LEGAL TO HAVE AMMUNITION IN THE CASE WITH THE FIREARM?  

Yes, as long as the firearm is unloaded and properly enclosed in a case
 

 

 
 
Cheers!

Edited by soundguy, 01 December 2017 - 11:37 AM.

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#15 chicagoresident

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:20 PM

The Jeff Horstman link was what I was looking for, looks like that is accepted case law for fanny pack carry.

What about the old turn of the century holsters that fully cover the gun? With a compartment for the magazine?

Not looking for case law as that's obscure, but are there any legal disqualifiers? When does a holster become a fanny pack and vis versa?

I'm glad I have my ccl

Edited by chicagoresident, 01 December 2017 - 12:21 PM.


#16 soundguy

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:51 PM

The Jeff Horstman link was what I was looking for, looks like that is accepted case law for fanny pack carry.

What about the old turn of the century holsters that fully cover the gun? With a compartment for the magazine?

Not looking for case law as that's obscure, but are there any legal disqualifiers? When does a holster become a fanny pack and vis versa?

I'm glad I have my ccl

 

A holster is not a case if it is a holster.

A fanny pack with provisions to secure a gun is not a holster.

 

I can't say for sure but I imagine if it's on your belt like a holster, it's a holster. A fanny pack can be over the shoulder, on the front seat of the car or around your waist. Seems odd, but that's how I understand it until something different is proven.

 

I miss the times when you could buy a good fanny pack nearly anywhere!


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#17 chicagoresident

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:09 PM

http://www.zib-milit...56&Locale=en_GB

Something like this, it covers the gun completely, it has a latch, it's rigid like a case, the magazine is in a separate compartment. I could even string it across my shoulder like a hipster purse.

My guess is it would work, but nobody wants to spend the money on a lawyer to find out. But at least there is a similar case law to fight for its legality.

We gotta be able to move past the fanny pack as the only gfz carry option, it's just not cool.

Edited by chicagoresident, 01 December 2017 - 03:11 PM.


#18 tkroenlein

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:11 PM

I wish Mr.Horstman would drop in more frequently. He is one of few who can articulate the discriminatory nature of restricting one's right to defend their self.


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#19 soundguy

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:00 PM

http://www.zib-milit...56&Locale=en_GB

Something like this, it covers the gun completely, it has a latch, it's rigid like a case, the magazine is in a separate compartment. I could even string it across my shoulder like a hipster purse.

My guess is it would work, but nobody wants to spend the money on a lawyer to find out. But at least there is a similar case law to fight for its legality.

We gotta be able to move past the fanny pack as the only gfz carry option, it's just not cool.

 

I looked.

Not gonna work but I know what you're thinking.

 

That is CLEARLY a holster and not a case. It just screams gun.

No matter where/how you carry or store that thing, anyone who sees it will think "that guy's got a gun" in a cool old holster.

 

If it's a holster, it's not a case.

 

Get one of those tactical bike messenger bags... the Gen X-Millennial Man Purse.

A generation task specific brief case would work. Laptop bag. Tablet/iPad case. Camera bag/pouch. Add a little holster thingy inside with velcro straps to keep your stuff in place.

 

I personally think the fanny pack is WAY cooler than a Murse, as long as it isn't leather!


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#20 mauserme

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:54 PM

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and wonder if a holster isn't a case within the description offered during legislative debate.

 

Not that I'd suggest testing those waters, but if someone did find themselves needing to make that argument the outcome might be interesting.


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On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.


#21 soundguy

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 05:42 PM

Mauseme, I wonder the same thing.

 

I vaguely remember someone (maybe here at IC, maybe out near Rockford??) having difficulty with local LEOs after fanny packing with one of those tactical case holsters and maybe it was strapped to his strong side leg as well as his belt? I wonder what the outcome was and what details I've forgotten. And there were guys with visible yet empty holsters protesting lack of gun rights. I think they faced some legal trouble.


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#22 tkroenlein

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 06:30 PM

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and wonder if a holster isn't a case within the description offered during legislative debate.
 
Not that I'd suggest testing those waters, but if someone did find themselves needing to make that argument the outcome might be interesting.


What was said description?

#23 mauserme

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 07:29 PM

This if from Bruner, with emphasis added:

 

"Koehler:  'Perhaps I heard you incorrectly, 

but I thought you said that you can..you have 
to have a..an unloaded gun in a case now when 
you carry it on the street.  Is that correct?'
               
Cullerton:  'That's correct.  In a city.'
 
Koehler:  'In a city.'
             
Cullerton:  'Right, that's what the law 
would do.  In another [sic] words, say you're 
going out to hunt.  You put your gun in a..un-    
loaded, you'd unload it, you'd put it in any 
kind of a container or case and put it in the 
car.'
             
Koehler:  'Okay, and this...and..but what 
about carrying it on the street?'
 
Cullerton:  'It has to be in a...'
 
Koehler:  'It has to be in a case.'
 
Cullerton:  '..case. Right.  Only if it's 
in the city.  If you're out in the..outside of 
an corporated area, you can have it in the open.  
Okay?   But if you're on the street, walking 
down the street with a gun unloaded, it would
be against the law.'"  82nd Ill. Gen. Assem., 
House Proceedings, May 16, 1981, at 5-6 (state- 
ments of Representatives Koehler and Cullerton). 

 

 

 

I'm not really arguing that then Senator Cullerton necessarily meant a holster, but "any kind of container or case" is pretty broad.  


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On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.


#24 lockman

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 09:31 AM

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and wonder if a holster isn't a case within the description offered during legislative debate.
 
Not that I'd suggest testing those waters, but if someone did find themselves needing to make that argument the outcome might be interesting.


Yes, if a holster meets the definition of a case, it is also a case and meets the legal requirements. If the definition is satisfied, a case can be a holster and a holster can be a case. It is not mutually exclusive.




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#25 lockman

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 09:38 AM


http://www.zib-milit...56&Locale=en_GB
Something like this, it covers the gun completely, it has a latch, it's rigid like a case, the magazine is in a separate compartment. I could even string it across my shoulder like a hipster purse.
My guess is it would work, but nobody wants to spend the money on a lawyer to find out. But at least there is a similar case law to fight for its legality.
We gotta be able to move past the fanny pack as the only gfz carry option, it's just not cool.


 
I looked.
Not gonna work but I know what you're thinking.
 
That is CLEARLY a holster and not a case. It just screams gun.
No matter where/how you carry or store that thing, anyone who sees it will think "that guy's got a gun" in a cool old holster.
 
If it's a holster, it's not a case.
 
Get one of those tactical bike messenger bags... the Gen X-Millennial Man Purse.
A generation task specific brief case would work. Laptop bag. Tablet/iPad case. Camera bag/pouch. Add a little holster thingy inside with velcro straps to keep your stuff in place.
 
I personally think the fanny pack is WAY cooler than a Murse, as long as it isn't leather!


If hanging on your belt is a case shaped like a gun and has the words “firearm case” embossed on it, but it meets the legal description of a case then you are legal.


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#26 tkroenlein

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 09:52 AM

I see most holsters failing to meet the "completely enclosed" definition as adjudicated. Some do, but most don't.


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#27 soundguy

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 12:06 PM

 

http://www.zib-milit...56&Locale=en_GB
Something like this, it covers the gun completely, it has a latch, it's rigid like a case, the magazine is in a separate compartment. I could even string it across my shoulder like a hipster purse.
My guess is it would work, but nobody wants to spend the money on a lawyer to find out. But at least there is a similar case law to fight for its legality.
We gotta be able to move past the fanny pack as the only gfz carry option, it's just not cool.


 
I looked.
Not gonna work but I know what you're thinking.
 
That is CLEARLY a holster and not a case. It just screams gun.
No matter where/how you carry or store that thing, anyone who sees it will think "that guy's got a gun" in a cool old holster.
 
If it's a holster, it's not a case.
 
Get one of those tactical bike messenger bags... the Gen X-Millennial Man Purse.
A generation task specific brief case would work. Laptop bag. Tablet/iPad case. Camera bag/pouch. Add a little holster thingy inside with velcro straps to keep your stuff in place.
 
I personally think the fanny pack is WAY cooler than a Murse, as long as it isn't leather!


If hanging on your belt is a case shaped like a gun and has the words “firearm case” embossed on it, but it meets the legal description of a case then you are legal.


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Perhaps.

 

One might expect some trouble.


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#28 chicagoresident

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 02:27 PM

So are transportation laws different then state transportation laws on CTA, Metro, or Amtrak?

Or can you ride the rails legally with a gun shaped purse slung case?

Also can you transport a firearm above the legal limit at an establishment that makes up the majority of its sales on alcohol?

Or, are you no longer transporting if you happen to walk through some gfz business because you're thirsty from transporting by foot?

All disclaimers about legal advice on the internet would apply.

#29 mauserme

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 05:01 PM

Well, if we're still talking about a magazine under the FCCA I think you'd be OK in a bar. UUW would prohibit the firearm there, as would the FCCA above 50% sales..

Amtrak is controlled by Federal law. You'd have to check both firearm and ammunition and declare that they're on board.

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Link to ILGA House Audio/Video..........Link to ILGA Senate Audio/Video ..........Advanced Digital Media Link ..........Blue Room Stream Link

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. (Ephesians 4:31)

 

On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.





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