1700715 Posted July 24, 2014 at 09:57 PM Share Posted July 24, 2014 at 09:57 PM http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/24/pennsylvania-hospital-on-lockdown-amid-reports-shooting/ Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowbrid Posted July 24, 2014 at 10:07 PM Share Posted July 24, 2014 at 10:07 PM Crossin' my fingers that the doc gets to keep his job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted July 24, 2014 at 10:54 PM Share Posted July 24, 2014 at 10:54 PM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
es503IL Posted July 24, 2014 at 11:08 PM Share Posted July 24, 2014 at 11:08 PM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor?If you look at 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(1)(4) ....(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ... I am pretty sure that a doctor, at his/her fixed place of place of business (i.e. the hospital), is fine. He/She would not even need a FCCL. 430 ILCS 66/10(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeM Posted July 24, 2014 at 11:31 PM Share Posted July 24, 2014 at 11:31 PM You mean a good guy with a gun, stopped a bad guy with a gun? C'mon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmyers Posted July 24, 2014 at 11:35 PM Share Posted July 24, 2014 at 11:35 PM You mean a good guy with a gun, stopped a bad guy with a gun? C'mon That never happens, must be a misprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double-J Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:19 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:19 AM Smart Doc. Lucky too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:26 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:26 AM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor? If you look at 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(1)(4) ....(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ... I am pretty sure that a doctor, at his/her fixed place of place of business (i.e. the hospital), is fine. He/She would not even need a FCCL.430 ILCS 66/10(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission;That would be nice, but unless the doctor owns the hospital, he is still forbidden in IL. Otherwise a hospital janitor could also carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwc Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:37 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:37 AM Crossin' my fingers that the doc gets to keep his job... Definitely a valid concern given Mercy's firearm policy for its employees: none allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:38 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:38 AM From the: "Mercy Health System’s Code of Conduct, “Employees are prohibited from bringing firearms or explosives of any kind into the workplace.” The Doctor's job is toast and also probably his license to practice, watch and see. He decided to do the really hard good and right thing instead of taking the easy out by doing the bad or wrong thing. That never ends well in a liberal society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:41 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:41 AM From the: "Mercy Health System’s [/size]Code of Conduct, “[/size]Employees are prohibited from bringing firearms or explosives of any kind into the workplace.”[/size] The Doctor's job is toast and also probably his license to practice, watch and see.[/size] He decided to do the really hard good and right thing instead of taking the easy out by doing the bad or wrong thing.[/size] That never ends well in a liberal society[/size]I'd MUCH rather be out of a job than dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
es503IL Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:23 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:23 AM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor?If you look at 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(1)(4) ....(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ... I am pretty sure that a doctor, at his/her fixed place of place of business (i.e. the hospital), is fine. He/She would not even need a FCCL.430 ILCS 66/10(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission; That would be nice, but unless the doctor owns the hospital, he is still forbidden in IL. Otherwise a hospital janitor could also carry. I don't think that is correct, look at this from the Illinois Dept of Revenue. A Doctor's Office would seem to qualify as a Fixed Place of Business b ) Definitions. For purposes of this Section, the following definitions shall apply: 1) Fixed Place of Business. The term "fixed place of business" has the same meaning as that term is given in Section 864 of the Internal Revenue Code and the related Treasury regulations. (IITA Section 1501(a)(9.5)) A) As a general rule, a "fixed place of business" is a fixed facility, that is, a place, site, structure or other similar facility, through which the taxpayer engages in a trade or business. (See 26 CFR 1.864-7(b )(1).) A doctor is a taxpayer, and his/her office is a fixed facility through which he/she engages in a trade (medicine). B ) A taxpayer is not considered to have a fixed place of business merely because the taxpayer uses another person's fixed place of business, ...., through which to transact a trade or business, if the trade or business activities of the taxpayer in that fixed place of business are relatively sporadic or infrequent,..... (See 26 CFR 1.864-7(b )(2).) A doctor, who has an established practice, would seem to not be engaged in a "sporadic" or "infrequent" business or trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockman Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:40 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:40 AM This is PA not Il so the rules of play are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domin8 Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:51 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:51 AM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor?If you look at 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(1)(4) ....(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ... I am pretty sure that a doctor, at his/her fixed place of place of business (i.e. the hospital), is fine. He/She would not even need a FCCL.430 ILCS 66/10(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission; That would be nice, but unless the doctor owns the hospital, he is still forbidden in IL. Otherwise a hospital janitor could also carry.I do not agree with this. As a nonresident working (and living) in Illinois, this seems pretty clear. If you work there you can have a firearm. You don't need to possess a FCCL. "The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
es503IL Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:52 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:52 AM I know the rules are different. My response was in regards to the statement to the effect of, that in IL, the doctor would be toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted July 25, 2014 at 03:15 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 03:15 AM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor? If you look at 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(1)(4) ....(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ... I am pretty sure that a doctor, at his/her fixed place of place of business (i.e. the hospital), is fine. He/She would not even need a FCCL.430 ILCS 66/10(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except: (1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission; That would be nice, but unless the doctor owns the hospital, he is still forbidden in IL. Otherwise a hospital janitor could also carry.I do not agree with this. As a nonresident working (and living) in Illinois, this seems pretty clear. If you work there you can have a firearm. You don't need to possess a FCCL. "The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf So you're saying a hospital janitor could carry in an Illinois hospital then? I disagree. The only person who can overide the FCCL would be the property or business owner. A doctor's office, off of hospital property, would be legal for the doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwc Posted July 25, 2014 at 03:45 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 03:45 AM This is PA not Il so the rules of play are different. Yep, the mandatory prohibited list in PA is a little shorter than IL's list: (1) Court Houses, and (2) Elementary & Secondary Schools. Hospitals are okay in PA. If they choose to post, a violator would be subject to a trespassing charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwc Posted July 25, 2014 at 03:45 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 03:45 AM (Deleted--duplicate post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted July 25, 2014 at 03:57 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 03:57 AM This is PA not Il so the rules of play are different.Yep, the mandatory prohibited list in PA is a little shorter than IL's list: (1) Court Houses, and (2) Elementary & Secondary Schools. Hospitals are okay in PA. If they choose to post, a violator would be subject to a trespassing charge.My statements are in regards to "if this happened in Illinois". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwc Posted July 25, 2014 at 04:06 AM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 04:06 AM As a nonresident working (and living) in Illinois, this seems pretty clear. If you work there you can have a firearm. You don't need to possess a FCCL. Just working there qualifies one to carry without an FCCL in the UUW statutes? No permission from the owner required? I respectfully disagree with this interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumpnpump Posted July 25, 2014 at 12:11 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 12:11 PM Just came across the news, Dr. will NOT be charged, (even though it is unlawful for Dr.. to have gun at work, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Posted July 25, 2014 at 12:31 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 12:31 PM Just came across the news, Dr. will NOT be charged, (even though it is unlawful for Dr.. to have gun at work, it is not unlawful for him to have a gun at the hospital, it is against the hospital's policy. We are not talking about him being arrested but instead, losing his job and possibly his profession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:14 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:14 PM This incident was reported in today's Tribune. Notice what a tiny article, hidden deep in the paper. I guess its hard for journalists who are anti-gun to report on a gun related issue where the gun solved rather than caused the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domin8 Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:54 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 01:54 PM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor?If you look at 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(1)(4) ....(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ... I am pretty sure that a doctor, at his/her fixed place of place of business (i.e. the hospital), is fine. He/She would not even need a FCCL.430 ILCS 66/10(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission;That would be nice, but unless the doctor owns the hospital, he is still forbidden in IL. Otherwise a hospital janitor could also carry.I do not agree with this. As a nonresident working (and living) in Illinois, this seems pretty clear. If you work there you can have a firearm. You don't need to possess a FCCL."The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman SchwarzkopfSo you're saying a hospital janitor could carry in an Illinois hospital then? I disagree. The only person who can overide the FCCL would be the property or business owner. A doctor's office, off of hospital property, would be legal for the doctor.You don't need an FCCL to possess (notice I didn't say carry) in the hospital if, and only if, it is your primary fixed place of employment. This was statute before the FCCA came along. This was already cited as one of the 720 ILCS statutes. The FCCA, in this regard, pertains to the general public not employed by the hospital. Therefore, yes, a janitor could possess a firearm at the hospital, and do so without a FCCL. They could even have the firearm on their cart they push around with all of their supplies to do their job. The big catch here wouldn't be 430 ILCS 66/65. It would be the hospitals employment policy that determines future employment should the janitor, doctor, whomever uses their firearm in defense, or if it is ever discovered the janitor has the firearm. Based on this being Illinois, I'm willing to bet the FCCA caused a lot of employers to adopt firearms policies that are prohibitive. "The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junglebob Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:10 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:10 PM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor?If you look at 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(1)(4) ....(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ... I am pretty sure that a doctor, at his/her fixed place of place of business (i.e. the hospital), is fine. He/She would not even need a FCCL.430 ILCS 66/10(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission;That would be nice, but unless the doctor owns the hospital, he is still forbidden in IL. Otherwise a hospital janitor could also carry.I do not agree with this. As a nonresident working (and living) in Illinois, this seems pretty clear. If you work there you can have a firearm. You don't need to possess a FCCL."The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman SchwarzkopfSo you're saying a hospital janitor could carry in an Illinois hospital then? I disagree. The only person who can overide the FCCL would be the property or business owner. A doctor's office, off of hospital property, would be legal for the doctor.You don't need an FCCL to possess (notice I didn't say carry) in the hospital if, and only if, it is your primary fixed place of employment. This was statute before the FCCA came along. This was already cited as one of the 720 ILCS statutes. The FCCA, in this regard, pertains to the general public not employed by the hospital. Therefore, yes, a janitor could possess a firearm at the hospital, and do so without a FCCL. They could even have the firearm on their cart they push around with all of their supplies to do their job. The big catch here wouldn't be 430 ILCS 66/65. It would be the hospitals employment policy that determines future employment should the janitor, doctor, whomever uses their firearm in defense, or if it is ever discovered the janitor has the firearm. Based on this being Illinois, I'm willing to bet the FCCA caused a lot of employers to adopt firearms policies that are prohibitive. "The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf The statute says "fixed place of business" it doesn't say fixed place of employment. As someone else said unless the doctor owns the hospital it isn't his "fixed place of business". Maybe if he has an office connected to the hospital that he rents from the hospital he could carry in his office. Are you saying a doctor could "container transport" at a hospital or have a handgun unloaded and encased in his office? Maybe. Of course IANAL and a judge may decide on that. Sounds similar to container transport on public transportation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domin8 Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:16 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:16 PM He'd be dead in IL, since he wouldn't be allowed to legally carry in a hospital. And how many others would be dead if it wasn't for this doctor?If you look at 720 ILCS 5/24-1(a)(1)(4) ....(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, ... I am pretty sure that a doctor, at his/her fixed place of place of business (i.e. the hospital), is fine. He/She would not even need a FCCL.430 ILCS 66/10(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission;That would be nice, but unless the doctor owns the hospital, he is still forbidden in IL. Otherwise a hospital janitor could also carry.I do not agree with this. As a nonresident working (and living) in Illinois, this seems pretty clear. If you work there you can have a firearm. You don't need to possess a FCCL."The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman SchwarzkopfSo you're saying a hospital janitor could carry in an Illinois hospital then? I disagree. The only person who can overide the FCCL would be the property or business owner. A doctor's office, off of hospital property, would be legal for the doctor. You don't need an FCCL to possess (notice I didn't say carry) in the hospital if, and only if, it is your primary fixed place of employment. This was statute before the FCCA came along. This was already cited as one of the 720 ILCS statutes. The FCCA, in this regard, pertains to the general public not employed by the hospital. Therefore, yes, a janitor could possess a firearm at the hospital, and do so without a FCCL. They could even have the firearm on their cart they push around with all of their supplies to do their job. The big catch here wouldn't be 430 ILCS 66/65. It would be the hospitals employment policy that determines future employment should the janitor, doctor, whomever uses their firearm in defense, or if it is ever discovered the janitor has the firearm. Based on this being Illinois, I'm willing to bet the FCCA caused a lot of employers to adopt firearms policies that are prohibitive."The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf The statute says "fixed place of business" it doesn't say fixed place of employment. As someone else said unless the doctor owns the hospital it isn't his "fixed place of business". Maybe if he has an office connected to the hospital that he rents from the hospital he could carry in his office. Are you saying a doctor could "container transport" at a hospital or have a handgun unloaded and encased in his office? Maybe. Of course IANAL and a judge may decide on that. Sounds similar to container transport on public transportation.Don't forget hospital employment policy. "The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmer Fudd Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:19 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:19 PM The definition is being taken out of context...the reference to fixed place of business in IRC Sec. 864 is an income sourcing provision for purposes of calculating foreign tax credit. It was not written to have anything to do with the legal definition of a fixed place of business for purposes of real property law which is the context in which the FCCL provision was written. Just because it is now possible to "google" a phrase and find it in a statute doesn't make a lay person proficient in applying the provision, the context of where a provision is contained, the legislative history and intent have to be considered in its application. The use of the IRC Sec. 864 definition in this context is absolutely inappropriate. I don't think that is correct, look at this from the Illinois Dept of Revenue. A Doctor's Office would seem to qualify as a Fixed Place of Businessb ) Definitions. For purposes of this Section, the following definitions shall apply:1) Fixed Place of Business. The term "fixed place of business" has the same meaning as that term is given in Section 864 of the Internal Revenue Code and the related Treasury regulations. (IITA Section 1501(a)(9.5))A) As a general rule, a "fixed place of business" is a fixed facility, that is, a place, site, structure or other similar facility, through which the taxpayer engages in a trade or business. (See 26 CFR 1.864-7(b )(1).) A doctor is a taxpayer, and his/her office is a fixed facility through which he/she engages in a trade (medicine).B ) A taxpayer is not considered to have a fixed place of business merely because the taxpayer uses another person's fixed place of business, ...., through which to transact a trade or business, if the trade or business activities of the taxpayer in that fixed place of business are relatively sporadic or infrequent,..... (See 26 CFR 1.864-7(b )(2).) A doctor, who has an established practice, would seem to not be engaged in a "sporadic" or "infrequent" business or trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockman Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:26 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:26 PM Carry on premises where you are not the owner was always interpreted to apply to owners, not employees. This changed when the "with permission" change a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAS3987 Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:38 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:38 PM This story is proof that gun free zones do not work and everyone should be able to exercise their second amendment rights regardless of profession. I don't think it would have gone better if everyone but the bad guy was unarmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTWalker Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:42 PM Share Posted July 25, 2014 at 02:42 PM Crossin' my fingers that the doc gets to keep his job... I assume this doctor will never have to worry about getting patients again. Heck, if I lived close by he'd be my new doctor. I'm sure many feel the same way I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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