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Saint Pistol?


USMCSgtE5

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I would not use the decision of a single States Attorney to determine my actions in other parts of the state. There are plenty of anti-2A politicians around.

 

Springfield calls it a pistol, but its website features a picture of a man using the "forearm brace" like a stock on a conventional rifle. I think a prosecutor would use that as evidence to indicate it is a rifle. Most rifles and shotguns can be shot with one hand, although it may be unpleasant. Caliber of bullet does not necessarily determine if a weapon is a pistol or rifle. The Springfield Saint seems to fall into a grey area.

I make no claim of having the definitive answer.

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I would not use the decision of a single States Attorney to determine my actions in other parts of the state. There are plenty of anti-2A politicians around. Springfield calls it a pistol, but its website features a picture of a man using the "forearm brace" like a stock on a conventional rifle. I think a prosecutor would use that as evidence to indicate it is a rifle. Most rifles and shotguns can be shot with one hand, although it may be unpleasant. Caliber of bullet does not necessarily determine if a weapon is a pistol or rifle. The Springfield Saint seems to fall into a grey area.I make no claim of having the definitive answer.
The ATF has already stated that shouldering the brace on a pistol does not make it a rifle, so the SAINT pistol, just like any other AR pistol, is still a handgun.

 

SA refused to press charges, because no laws were broken.Is this a fact, or an assumption? Is it possible the SA didn't press charges because they didn't want to lose a case and clear up a slightly fuzzy spot in the law?
This was in my county, and we have a very pro-2A SA (Gibbons).
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I don't believe that the FCCA makes any distinction between what types of pistols can be carried. It just says pistols. The Saint is a pistol by law regardless of what it looks like or the fact it has an arm brace. To my knowledge I don't believe IL has any laws against pistols that chamber rifle caliber rounds in general. They are commonly sold and possessed as pistols with arm braces. And even if there was a home rule law that banned them like say in Cook County these days, if you have your CCL that law is null and void to you. State preemption applies.

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I would not use the decision of a single States Attorney to determine my actions in other parts of the state. There are plenty of anti-2A politicians around.

 

Springfield calls it a pistol, but its website features a picture of a man using the "forearm brace" like a stock on a conventional rifle. I think a prosecutor would use that as evidence to indicate it is a rifle. Most rifles and shotguns can be shot with one hand, although it may be unpleasant. Caliber of bullet does not necessarily determine if a weapon is a pistol or rifle. The Springfield Saint seems to fall into a grey area.

I make no claim of having the definitive answer.

What about using the evidence in the form of 4473? Question #16 - Type of firearm to be transferred.

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I would not use the decision of a single States Attorney to determine my actions in other parts of the state. There are plenty of anti-2A politicians around.

 

Springfield calls it a pistol, but its website features a picture of a man using the "forearm brace" like a stock on a conventional rifle. I think a prosecutor would use that as evidence to indicate it is a rifle. Most rifles and shotguns can be shot with one hand, although it may be unpleasant. Caliber of bullet does not necessarily determine if a weapon is a pistol or rifle. The Springfield Saint seems to fall into a grey area.

I make no claim of having the definitive answer.

What about using the evidence in the form of 4473? Question #16 - Type of firearm to be transferred.

 

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Why would it not be legal? AR-15 pistols are everywhere and the "re-manufacturing by shouldering an arm brace" stuff has been put to rest.

 

That said, a 7.5" barrel is pretty short for 5.56. I built a similar upper "for fun" and it's noticeably anemic and LOUD.

 

Never chrono'ed it but @ 100yds on a steel silhouette:

 

16" = Bang ... PANK!

7.5" = BOOM! ..... tink.

 

My 11.5" has become my favorite AR though.

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SA refused to press charges, because no laws were broken.

Is this a fact, or an assumption? Is it possible the SA didn't press charges because they didn't want to lose a case and clear up a slightly fuzzy spot in the law?

IIRC, this was a case where the Todd V bat signal got fired up before things were resolved.

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If a gun enters 4473 as a rifle it's always a rifle. It cannot be configured as a pistol. Otherwise it's an Nfa regulated firearm made from a rifle (i.e. A short barreled rifle).

 

If it is a pistol or a receiver it can legally be made into a rifle and back into a pistol as long as its not assembled in an NFA regulated configuration. Receivers are regulated like pistols with 3 day waiting periods and similar regulations as handguns for interstate commerce.

 

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

 

Short barreled rifles are a law that makes no sense.

 

It was a holdover from the regulations around the 1933/34 gun control act

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

 

And the Miller VS. US Supreme Court case.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller

 

Back in the day the gun control act was going to regulate every weapon that wasn't considered a military type of weapon that would equip a militia. Basically only rifles and shotguns would be legal. It sought to make handguns and machine guns taxable at an obscene $200 ($3600 in today's money). This despite the fact that the military used handguns and machine guns all through WWI. Short barreled rifles were added because they were worried about people making handguns from rifles and getting around the tax.

 

At the end of the day handguns ended up not being a regulated NFA item, but they still kept the wording around short barreled rifles.

 

So now you can buy pistols in rifle calibers, but you still can't make a rifle into a handgun without paying $200.

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When people speak of "preemption" related to handguns in IL, they are speaking of a preemption which is created by Illinois law (430 ILCS 66/90), so the first place to look for the definition of "Handgun" is that same law and sure enough, 430 ILCS 66/5, defines "Handgun". The IL definition of handgun is not the same as the federal but it's pretty close. ATF rulings really have no binding authority, but may be persuasive authority in the context of IL preemption. Really, you'll never know for sure whether IL law treats braced AR pistols as handguns for the purposes of 430 ILCS 66 unless the IL Supreme Court rules on the topic, which probably isn't likely.

 

All relevant law excerpts cited below:

 

Illinois Law:

430 ILCS 66/5:

"Handgun" means any device which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas, or escape of gas that is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.
"Handgun" does not include:
(1) a stun gun or taser;
(2) a machine gun as defined in item (i) of paragraph (7) of subsection (a) of Section 24-1 of the Criminal Code of 2012;
(3) a short-barreled rifle or shotgun as defined in item (ii) of paragraph (7) of subsection (a) of Section 24-1 of the Criminal Code of 2012; or
(4) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or B-B gun which expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter, or which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second, or which expels breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors.

 

Federal law:

18 USC 921:

 

(29) The term ‘‘handgun’’ means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is
designed to be held and fired by the use of a
single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a
firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be
assembled.
IL law:
Paragraph 7 of section 24 of the criminal code of 2012:
(7) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries:
(i) a machine gun, which shall be defined for the purposes of this subsection as any weapon, which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manually reloading by a single function of the trigger, including the frame or receiver of any such weapon, or sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses, or carries any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any weapon into a machine gun, or any combination or parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;
(ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches;
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That effectively made my understanding worse. Maybe I am reading it very badly, but looking at:

 

"a short-barreled rifle or shotgun as defined in item (ii) of paragraph (7) of subsection (a) of Section 24-1 of the Criminal Code of 2012;" then in that section:

"any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches;"

 

The SAINT has a barrel shorter than 16", but overall length is 27"

 

So how does that fit?

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Its not a short barreled rifle. It’s not made from a rifle or a shotgun. The 4473 is marked “pistol”. Federal law says it’s a pistol. Illinois law... kinda probably maybe? Depends on your risk tolerance and where you live. South of 80, it’s probably a pistol. In Cook, you better have a lawyer or be willing to lose the heater to the cops. My opinion only.
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Its not a short barreled rifle. It’s not made from a rifle or a shotgun. The 4473 is marked “pistol”. Federal law says it’s a pistol. Illinois law... kinda probably maybe? Depends on your risk tolerance and where you live. South of 80, it’s probably a pistol. In Cook, you better have a lawyer or be willing to lose the heater to the cops. My opinion only.

And then they pay out on a 1983 suit.

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That effectively made my understanding worse.

I think the form 4473 makes it clear on this one. Assault weapons bans are not proven case law because, to my knowledge there hasn't been a clean case in Illinois (conviction where there weren't other charges like drugs, illegal discharge, etc).

 

Welcome to the world of gun laws, legal gun ownership requires you to be an armchair lawyer, especially in Illinois and moreso for cook county. Read the laws, read the ATF letters, read your city's ordinances, and draw your own conclusions. None of us are lawyers. Past cases and ATF letters are good indicators of future decisions but not always 100‰ because no case is the exact same. Look at the way the bump stock ATF decision is being debated now.

 

But if you like guns make sure you have enough a basic understanding of the law so if needed a lawyer can argue the case. The law usually favors the defendant in umtested cases of ambiguity.

 

Don't break the law while breaking the law (adding additional charges to a shaky 2nd ammendment case does us all a disservice). And never make a plea deal with the DA. Lawyer up.

 

Oh, and still confused about laws? Check this case out.

https://www.isba.org/cases/illinois/appellate/2015/08/04/peoplevshreffler even overall length/barrel length is up for debate.

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I believe it's legally a handgun according to Illinois law. If you go to your local gun shop to buy it, they will apply the 3-day waiting period for a handgun. It is, therefore, legal to conceal carry if you have a license.

 

HOWEVER, I think it's idiotic to try to conceal carry an AR pistol. Completely stupid.

 

I mean, appendix carry is going to be tough, but I find mine works really well with an ankle holster.

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I believe it's legally a handgun according to Illinois law. If you go to your local gun shop to buy it, they will apply the 3-day waiting period for a handgun. It is, therefore, legal to conceal carry if you have a license.

 

HOWEVER, I think it's idiotic to try to conceal carry an AR pistol. Completely stupid.

 

I mean, appendix carry is going to be tough, but I find mine works really well with an ankle holster.

 

 

I hope you're not being serious...

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Why would it not be legal? AR-15 pistols are everywhere and the "re-manufacturing by shouldering an arm brace" stuff has been put to rest.

 

That said, a 7.5" barrel is pretty short for 5.56. I built a similar upper "for fun" and it's noticeably anemic and LOUD.

 

Never chrono'ed it but @ 100yds on a steel silhouette:

 

16" = Bang ... PANK!

7.5" = BOOM! ..... tink.

 

My 11.5" has become my favorite AR though.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2228320871/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-pistol-300-aac-blackout-medium-contour-1-in-8-twist-chrome-moly-melonite

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I believe it's legally a handgun according to Illinois law. If you go to your local gun shop to buy it, they will apply the 3-day waiting period for a handgun. It is, therefore, legal to conceal carry if you have a license.

 

HOWEVER, I think it's idiotic to try to conceal carry an AR pistol. Completely stupid.

 

I mean, appendix carry is going to be tough, but I find mine works really well with an ankle holster.

 

 

I hope you're not being serious...

 

 

I'm just glad bell bottoms never went out of style.

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Why would it not be legal? AR-15 pistols are everywhere and the "re-manufacturing by shouldering an arm brace" stuff has been put to rest.

 

That said, a 7.5" barrel is pretty short for 5.56. I built a similar upper "for fun" and it's noticeably anemic and LOUD.

 

Never chrono'ed it but @ 100yds on a steel silhouette:

 

16" = Bang ... PANK!

7.5" = BOOM! ..... tink.

 

My 11.5" has become my favorite AR though.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2228320871/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-pistol-300-aac-blackout-medium-contour-1-in-8-twist-chrome-moly-melonite

 

 

Indeed, I had intended the build to be 300blk but my buddy who was reloading it moved on and I have no other rifles chambered for it... Right now I'm leaning towards rebuilding it with a 10.5" 7.62 barrel.

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