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How do you chose your defense ammo.


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#1 Gator4838

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 12:31 PM

Do you rely on fbi testing protocol,or similar testing in gel for the 12-18 inches penetration,maximum expansion and wound channel.or do you look for those results shooting through ribs,hams,phone books,water jugs,etc.or is it price,availability,and some of the above.does +p or +p+ get your interest.velocity and muzzle energy results.and there is always the barrel length of these results to consider.how do you chose your defense ammo.

#2 luckydawg13

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 02:21 PM

I pick up a few boxes of proven S/D ammo and see what shoots best in my carry gun  My p938 seems to like federal HST 150 gr 


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#3 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 02:53 PM

Do a search on my postings here about Underwood's Xtreme Defender and Penetrator and you will see my discussions about shooting pig carcasses and then dissecting them to examine the wound tracks. It's likely more than just about anyone else does, but I've also compared just about every top self-defense ammo in that way and gotten some pretty definitive results as to what works in actual tissue and bone.


"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

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#4 Gator4838

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 03:46 PM

Do a search on my postings here about Underwood's Xtreme Defender and Penetrator and you will see my discussions about shooting pig carcasses and then dissecting them to examine the wound tracks. It's likely more than just about anyone else does, but I've also compared just about every top self-defense ammo in that way and gotten some pretty definitive results as to what works in actual tissue and bone.

I read it and i have to tip my hat to you ronin,informative,hardcore,are a couple words I can use to describe the post.o.k.how does the average Joe citizen chose their defense ammo?

#5 papa

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 03:50 PM

Do you rely on fbi testing protocol,or similar testing in gel for the 12-18 inches penetration,maximum expansion and wound channel.or do you look for those results shooting through ribs,hams,phone books,water jugs,etc.or is it price,availability,and some of the above.does +p or +p+ get your interest.velocity and muzzle energy results.and there is always the barrel length of these results to consider.how do you chose your defense ammo.

 

I watch several different youtube channles who do ammo testing . The one who I really pay attention to is TNotdoors9 .  He has done full tests of all ammo per caliber standard and +P loads.  His tests have shown that +P doesn't always work better than the standard loading too.



#6 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 05:35 PM

 

Do a search on my postings here about Underwood's Xtreme Defender and Penetrator and you will see my discussions about shooting pig carcasses and then dissecting them to examine the wound tracks. It's likely more than just about anyone else does, but I've also compared just about every top self-defense ammo in that way and gotten some pretty definitive results as to what works in actual tissue and bone.

I read it and i have to tip my hat to you ronin,informative,hardcore,are a couple words I can use to describe the post.o.k.how does the average Joe citizen chose their defense ammo?

 

 

One thing I always stress is that if you are going to use one of the fluted copper rounds like the Xtreme series, SPEED IS KING. The faster you drive those rounds, the more effectively they work and the more damage they do. Go for +P or +P+ whenever it is available, or look at the speed in FPS. Bullet weight is pretty much not an issue, as they are light for caliber anyway, so go for speed above everything except for "field rounds" that you would use against large game or predators. Then, go for the Xtreme Penetrators as heavy and fast as you can go, or the Xtreme Hunters (heavyweight Xtreme Defenders).

 

These rounds start being most effective over 1,500 fps (100 grain .40 S&W, for example), and really start to get massively devastating at 1,800 fps or higher, so, 65 grain +P 9mm (1,800 fps) 100 grain 10mm (1,850 fps), and especially the 65 grain .357 SIG (2,100 fps) and 90 grain 9x25 Dillon (2,000 fps).

 

Those last ones start doing hydraulic pressure damage and permanent tissue tearing (as opposed to just temporary cavity stretching) when they start getting into those near-rifle velocities. 


"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

 InX89li.jpg
 

 
 
 
 


#7 Gator4838

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 06:23 PM

Do a search on my postings here about Underwood's Xtreme Defender and Penetrator and you will see my discussions about shooting pig carcasses and then dissecting them to examine the wound tracks. It's likely more than just about anyone else does, but I've also compared just about every top self-defense ammo in that way and gotten some pretty definitive results as to what works in actual tissue and bone.

I read it and i have to tip my hat to you ronin,informative,hardcore,are a couple words I can use to describe the post.o.k.how does the average Joe citizen chose their defense ammo?
 
One thing I always stress is that if you are going to use one of the fluted copper rounds like the Xtreme series, SPEED IS KING. The faster you drive those rounds, the more effectively they work and the more damage they do. Go for +P or +P+ whenever it is available, or look at the speed in FPS. Bullet weight is pretty much not an issue, as they are light for caliber anyway, so go for speed above everything except for "field rounds" that you would use against large game or predators. Then, go for the Xtreme Penetrators as heavy and fast as you can go, or the Xtreme Hunters (heavyweight Xtreme Defenders).
 
These rounds start being most effective over 1,500 fps (100 grain .40 S&W, for example), and really start to get massively devastating at 1,800 fps or higher, so, 65 grain +P 9mm (1,800 fps) 100 grain 10mm (1,850 fps), and especially the 65 grain .357 SIG (2,100 fps) and 90 grain 9x25 Dillon (2,000 fps).
 
Those last ones start doing hydraulic pressure damage and permanent tissue tearing (as opposed to just temporary cavity stretching) when they start getting into those near-rifle velocities. 
so speed\fps is the bottom line,wt,not a issue.so in 9mm for example,or any handgun caliber,shop for the quickest round.I use +p in gold dots,hst,s,and xtp,s in various calibers.I do take a peek from time to time at underwood,double tap,buffalo bore.many folks In the gun world poo,poo,+p,+p+ ammo,as not necessary and a waste of money.I often have this conversation with my brother,he is always chasing ranger t +p+ 127 gr.I mean,let's be realistic,if you ever had to defend yourself,if you had a tried and true jhp,would it really matter.

#8 Windermere

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 08:31 PM

FBI?? haha!

Hornady critical defense
"Always remember, your ability to shoot and have a firearm makes it so that you are not subjected to the whims of other people without your permission. So, in other words, if you don't want to get raped, robbed, pillaged, or plundered... get a gun."
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#9 Gator4838

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 08:49 PM

FBI?? haha!
Hornady critical defense

can you expand on your comment?thanks.

#10 WitchDoctor

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 09:31 PM

+p+, the G43 goes through a few more spring sets, but speed is power which equals hits  on target that are devistating and p+ or better should be handled by most modern day semi auto pistols.

ChicagRonin is right on!


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#11 RandyP

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 09:42 PM

I carefully and judiciously select some kind of hollow point round that happens to be on sale at my LGS. I always select ammo that matches the specific caliber of the firearm in which I intend to use it.

 

IMHO it's the archer, not the arrow that wins the day, so I just can't seem to muster up the energy to fret over the brand choice. Never have, never will.


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#12 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 10:11 PM

 

 

I read it and i have to tip my hat to you ronin,informative,hardcore,are a couple words I can use to describe the post.o.k.how does the average Joe citizen chose their defense ammo?

 
One thing I always stress is that if you are going to use one of the fluted copper rounds like the Xtreme series, SPEED IS KING. The faster you drive those rounds, the more effectively they work and the more damage they do. Go for +P or +P+ whenever it is available, or look at the speed in FPS. Bullet weight is pretty much not an issue, as they are light for caliber anyway, so go for speed above everything except for "field rounds" that you would use against large game or predators. Then, go for the Xtreme Penetrators as heavy and fast as you can go, or the Xtreme Hunters (heavyweight Xtreme Defenders).
 
These rounds start being most effective over 1,500 fps (100 grain .40 S&W, for example), and really start to get massively devastating at 1,800 fps or higher, so, 65 grain +P 9mm (1,800 fps) 100 grain 10mm (1,850 fps), and especially the 65 grain .357 SIG (2,100 fps) and 90 grain 9x25 Dillon (2,000 fps).
 
Those last ones start doing hydraulic pressure damage and permanent tissue tearing (as opposed to just temporary cavity stretching) when they start getting into those near-rifle velocities. 
so speed\fps is the bottom line,wt,not a issue.so in 9mm for example,or any handgun caliber,shop for the quickest round.I use +p in gold dots,hst,s,and xtp,s in various calibers.I do take a peek from time to time at underwood,double tap,buffalo bore.many folks In the gun world poo,poo,+p,+p+ ammo,as not necessary and a waste of money.I often have this conversation with my brother,he is always chasing ranger t +p+ 127 gr.I mean,let's be realistic,if you ever had to defend yourself,if you had a tried and true jhp,would it really matter.

 

 

To be clear, again, I am ONLY talking about the monolithic copper Xtreme Series projectiles when it comes to "faster is better." Those operate on a mechanism that transfers both ballistic and rotational energy into the target during terminal ballistic activity. These function on an entirely different principle than hollow points.

 

For JHPs, or even solid copper hollow points, the ideal velocity is as close to the listed velocity on the box, because those are designed to function for maximum expansion at a specific velocity, and reasonably well consistently in a range of velocity above and below that number.


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 17 November 2019 - 10:11 PM.

"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

 InX89li.jpg
 

 
 
 
 


#13 2A4Cook

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 05:50 AM

I look for the FBI protocols. I generally use 147 grain HST in my 9mm's, 230 grain HST in 45acp. Barnes TAC-XPD in .357 snubbies.

I look for great expansion and 14"-16" penetration, and pretty much discount anything that over penetrates, being in an urban/suburban environment.

#14 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 06:34 AM

Underwood Xtreme or Liberty Civil Defense.

 

The Liberty Civil Defense is a hot round at 2000 fps.

https://libertyammo.com/



#15 ScottFM

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 10:40 AM

I look at the reviews and test of the FBI protocols. I also ask police that I know what their departments are using. I shoot some and decide what I like. For instance I thought the ARX composite ammo shot and carried much nicer in my Glock 43 than some other JHP rounds. I also change in the winter when some ammo just shoots through clothing better. 


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#16 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 11:25 AM

Underwood Xtreme or Liberty Civil Defense.

 

The Liberty Civil Defense is a hot round at 2000 fps.

https://libertyammo.com/

 

The problem I found with Liberty Civil Defense ammo is that the tissue damage is concentrated in the first 3–4 inches, with secondary wound tracks from the smaller fragments going to 5–6 inches. The main body, which weighs only about 25–35 grains, doesn't penetrate as effectively as a solid copper round or even a good JHP. It will often stop on bones and makes just a very small wound track deeper into the carcass if it isn't stopped by heavy bones.

 

For a belly/abdominal or head shot it does pretty decently (especially the head, which it has enough velocity to shatter the skull and melon-explode it if it penetrates), but for a chest/thoracic or pelvis shot, it doesn't do very well.


"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Who gets to keep and read books? The Media? Or is it the People?

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

 InX89li.jpg
 

 
 
 
 


#17 Redlin

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 08:08 PM

I pick up a few boxes of proven S/D ammo and see what shoots best in my carry gun.

 

 

I carefully and judiciously select some kind of hollow point round that happens to be on sale.

 

IMHO it's the archer, not the arrow that wins the day.

These two sum it up for me.


Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

Thomas Paine





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