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Brandishing or Self Defense? When is it not brandishing?


Vindibona1

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In Illinois brandishing is a chargeable/punishable offense and obviously you just don't do draw your weapon without really good reason to. We know that just displaying your weapon without drawing it will almost certainly be considered by the legal community as brandishing. But let's say, someone is coming at you in an aggressive manner and you do not know what they will do next and you cannot retreat, if you draw your weapon before you're laying on the ground, is that brandishing? Or does Illinois law require you to see a weapon or be physically attacked first before you can draw your weapon without being charged with brandishing???? Obviously you don't draw your weapon unless you intend to fire, but it seems counter-intuitive to have to wait to that last second where you have to draw and fire without giving the assailant a moment to also retreat.

 

In other words, we have an idea of what outright brandishing is. But under what conditions is drawing your weapon NOT brandishing?

TIA

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Some states (AZ, MI, I think) have laws that specifically address defensive display of a firearm. Most, including Illinois, do not.

 

... Obviously you don't draw your weapon unless you intend to fire ...

It's not obvious to me. If a defender drawing a weapon is enough to make the attackers retreat, then there's no need for the defender to fire.

 

Perhaps you used "intend" to mean "willing." In that case, someone unwilling to use a firearm shouldn't be carrying one.

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This is another one of those "what if" question that is best answered with "depends on several things". 1. How well you can articulate the threat you felt and the need to pull the weapon. Can you explain it so that the action is justifiable under the law. 2. What are the circumstances. 300 pound line backer coming at a 90 pound 80 year old? A pack of thugs trying to surround you? Etc. 3. What did you do after the fact? Report the incident or run away?

 

I am sure others will be able to quote the law chapter and verse.

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If my life (or my family) was in danger, that is I felt it was in danger (and that is up to me I think),

 

I would verbally warn the other person that I can defend myself, maybe show him the weapon and then let nature takes its course.

 

There are many rules out there, in my thinking the decision that I need to protect myself or my family from obvious harm is paramount.

 

Just my thought on this. Do the right thing.

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Some states (AZ, MI, I think) have laws that specifically address defensive display of a firearm. Most, including Illinois, do not.

 

... Obviously you don't draw your weapon unless you intend to fire ...

It's not obvious to me. If a defender drawing a weapon is enough to make the attackers retreat, then there's no need for the defender to fire.

 

Perhaps you used "intend" to mean "willing." In that case, someone unwilling to use a firearm shouldn't be carrying one.

 

BINGO!

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If I, or my loved ones are being threatened to the point that I believe deadly force is necessary to end the threat I am drawing my weapon.

If the person engaged in the threatening behavior chooses to withdraw ending the threat my weapon will not be fired.

If the person engaged in the threatening behavior continues to do so my weapon will be fired until such time as the threat ends.

 

There is no “brandishing” involved.

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If I, or my loved ones are being threatened to the point that I believe deadly force is necessary to end the threat I am drawing my weapon. If the person engaged in the threatening behavior chooses to withdraw ending the threat my weapon will not be fired. If the person engaged in the threatening behavior continues to do so my weapon will be fired until such time as the threat ends. There is no “brandishing” involved.

and another BINGO! and well said.

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This question comes up so often by so many people. I tell everyone... if you have to think about whether or not you have the legal right to draw your weapon and possibly kill someone to save your own life then you shouldn't be drawing.

 

How do you know when you can draw your weapon? You don't need it explained to you and you don't need to go fishing for reasons. If your in a situation that warrants a firearm being used on someone, TRUST ME me you'll be the first to know and at that point there isn't much thinking anymore, you're just reacting with anything that'll save your life.

 

Too many people want to know what the bare minimum is to pull out their Glock 40 and let everyone along with their mother know their packing. I've seen stuff where people think they have the right to draw because of some petty stuff. "He was yelling really loud and got really close to me after walking fast towards me".....

 

99.99% of people have never feared for their life. When someone is put into that situation it's natural instinct, you'll know you're about to meet your creator unless you do something.

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On topic but a bit different. Law enforcement always draw their weapons when they have the slightest doubt, and I believe that persuades most aggressors to retreat and disarm without shots being fired. One could apply that same reasoning in a civilian situation, under extreme conditions. I'm not saying i agree with that, but it could be debated IMO.

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it could be debated IMO.

I have a feeling the OP intended just that. Trolling?

 

It's more likely either the OP wants a clear standard to follow or the OP wants an easy defense for a stupid action. How many discussions have we had here about "Can I shoot someone who's driving away in my car?" because some people didn't take "No" for an answer?

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it could be debated IMO.

I have a feeling the OP intended just that. Trolling?

 

It's more likely either the OP wants a clear standard to follow or the OP wants an easy defense for a stupid action. How many discussions have we had here about "Can I shoot someone who's driving away in my car?" because some people didn't take "No" for an answer?

 

i don't remember seeing one of those for a while. Is Chicagogunowner still around?

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it could be debated IMO.

 

I have a feeling the OP intended just that. Trolling?

 

It's more likely either the OP wants a clear standard to follow or the OP wants an easy defense for a stupid action. How many discussions have we had here about "Can I shoot someone who's driving away in my car?" because some people didn't take "No" for an answer?

 

i don't remember seeing one of those for a while. Is Chicagogunowner still around?

Probably locked up for shooting someone's dog.

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or the OP wants an easy defense for a stupid action.

 

 

It's not fair for me to take my aggravation from all of the other posts I've seen out on OP but good lord, it's cringe worthy. People should just come out and ask "I think I'm Rambo and can't wait to pull my gun and show people I've got a big d*ck.....what's the bare minimum I can get by with"?

 

Who is Chicagogunowner, I want to go back and read some of the older posts hahah.

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  • 4 weeks later...

"you'll know you're about to meet your creator unless you do something"

 

I like this standard except for reaction time. Action beats reaction almost every time. I've watched enough active self protection videos to know that whole process takes time. I also had enough experience with timers in martial arts to know that reaction times vary dramatically between individuals and even within individuals under different circumstances. An example. At one point in my life, I was young, fit, and very active in martial arts. From a fighting position, I could hear the buzzer go off (randomly; but knew it would happen at some point), react, and strike a striking pad within 18/100ths of a second with a jab or 28/100th with a kick. Some very fit individuals couldn't do even the jab in less than 1/2 second. Now several years older and not fit nor active in martial arts, I probably couldn't start / stop a stopwatch in that time. Take your average person, add in age, disabilities, cover garments, lack of practice, other focus / distraction, lack of sleep, etc. and it could easily take someone two seconds to respond appropriately. A lot can happen in one second. A lot more can happen in two... In short, that standard may be sufficient for one person and woefully inadequate for another. I don't think one could or should apply it to all.

 

We shouldn't encourage people to pull their firearm and shoot at someone stealing their bicycle or wave their firearm around needlessly; but we also shouldn't make someone so afraid of pulling their firearm that they are unable to defend themselves.

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On topic but a bit different. Law enforcement always draw their weapons when they have the slightest doubt, and I believe that persuades most aggressors to retreat and disarm without shots being fired. One could apply that same reasoning in a civilian situation, under extreme conditions. I'm not saying i agree with that, but it could be debated IMO.

Law Enforcement is working under a different statue than we are. Their training and position allows for various options.

If we use their abilities, then we could all open carry cause they do right? No.

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On topic but a bit different. Law enforcement always draw their weapons when they have the slightest doubt, and I believe that persuades most aggressors to retreat and disarm without shots being fired. One could apply that same reasoning in a civilian situation, under extreme conditions. I'm not saying i agree with that, but it could be debated IMO.

Law Enforcement is working under a different statue than we are. Their training and position allows for various options.

If we use their abilities, then we could all open carry cause they do right? No.

 

If you say so,.

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but we also shouldn't make someone so afraid of pulling their firearm that they are unable to defend themselves.

 

I'm just surprised people wonder what's justifiable, if you're internally torn that's probably your logic speaking. Deep down I believe no matter how much life or bad choices has scarred someone they still know right from wrong on a instinctual level (whether they act on it that's another issue) and when they're in a life or death situation they'll just know what to do. Alot of mistakes that come from concealed carry cases going south are pretty much related to emotion, specifically pride and anger and I'm sure as they're pulling the trigger those thoughts are already creeping in.

 

However, this is the real world and things don't always work out.

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"you'll know you're about to meet your creator unless you do something"

 

I like this standard except for reaction time. Action beats reaction almost every time. I've watched enough active self protection videos to know that whole process takes time. I also had enough experience with timers in martial arts to know that reaction times vary dramatically between individuals and even within individuals under different circumstances. An example. At one point in my life, I was young, fit, and very active in martial arts. From a fighting position, I could hear the buzzer go off (randomly; but knew it would happen at some point), react, and strike a striking pad within 18/100ths of a second with a jab or 28/100th with a kick. Some very fit individuals couldn't do even the jab in less than 1/2 second. Now several years older and not fit nor active in martial arts, I probably couldn't start / stop a stopwatch in that time. Take your average person, add in age, disabilities, cover garments, lack of practice, other focus / distraction, lack of sleep, etc. and it could easily take someone two seconds to respond appropriately. A lot can happen in one second. A lot more can happen in two... In short, that standard may be sufficient for one person and woefully inadequate for another. I don't think one could or should apply it to all.

 

We shouldn't encourage people to pull their firearm and shoot at someone stealing their bicycle or wave their firearm around needlessly; but we also shouldn't make someone so afraid of pulling their firearm that they are unable to defend themselves.

Last sentence, very well said Sir!

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I agree, so let's correct our understanding of brandishing

 

Brandishing is not a punishable offense in Illinois. What we might think of as brandishing could be chargeable as disorderly conduct or some sort of assault if presenting the weapon wasn't justified, but brandishing appears in Illinois law only in the firearm restraining order law where it is undefined but is listed as a potential predicate to an order of protection.

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Some states (AZ, MI, I think) have laws that specifically address defensive display of a firearm. Most, including Illinois, do not.

It's not obvious to me. If a defender drawing a weapon is enough to make the attackers retreat, then there's no need for the defender to fire.

 

Perhaps you used "intend" to mean "willing." In that case, someone unwilling to use a firearm shouldn't be carrying one.

 

Agree

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