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Another Chicago/Cook county AR question


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#1 DeservingPorcupine

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 12:23 PM

Sorry for perhaps beating a dead horse, but I'm double checking. If I purchase an AR file and swap the buttstock for a pistol brace, then I have an AR pistol insofar as IL is concerned, correct?

 

Thanks



#2 InterestedBystander

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 12:31 PM

IANAL. I could be wrong.

IIRC, originally a rifle, always a rifle. You can go from pistol to rifle back and forth, but not the other way from rifle to pistol.

Also, although the state has preemption on handguns and "assault style weapons", Chicago/Cook has their AWB. Unsure if a pistol is any better than a rifle legally or not under those muni codes.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 13 January 2020 - 12:44 PM.

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#3 Bo69

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 01:02 PM

Nope it will still be a rifle.

Edited by Bo69, 13 January 2020 - 01:03 PM.


#4 Dog1

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 03:19 PM

No it will be an illegally manufactured pistol. 



#5 Gamma

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 03:30 PM

If you purchase an AR rifle, you have a rifle. If you put a short barrel on it, you have a short-barrled rifle (NFA SBR) by federal definition. Something originally assembled as a rifle can never be a pistol.

 

If you want a pistol, you have to buy a pistol, or else build a pistol first from a frame or receiver.  A pistol can be changed to rifle and back at will.

 

It makes no sense but that's what it is, it's all determined by the original configuration of the completed firearm.


Edited by Gamma, 13 January 2020 - 03:31 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#6 Gamma

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 03:51 PM

The distinction is because the NFA's definition of an SBR includes the phrase "or made from a rifle".  If you make a pistol from a rifle, that section of the law declares it's an SBR instead.

 

Pistol modularity is thanks to a SCOTUS decision... Thompson-Center sued and amazingly won.


Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#7 DeservingPorcupine

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 04:04 PM

Thanks all.

#8 2smartby1/2

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 04:09 PM

Once a rifle, always a rifle. 

 

If built pistol first, you can swap between rifle and pistol all day long.  

 

Crazy laws..

 

Buy a pistol....or buy your lower and upper separate.  They should be marked "other" on the 4473.



#9 Hatchet

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 04:19 PM

So this brings up a question i just thought of. If you fab an 80% it can be converted from one to the other since its not registered as anything. It would just be your word that it started as a pistol right?


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#10 defaultdotxbe

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 04:28 PM

So this brings up a question i just thought of. If you fab an 80% it can be converted from one to the other since its not registered as anything. It would just be your word that it started as a pistol right?

If you build it as a pistol first then its legal to swap back and forth with a rifle. If you build it as a rifle first its illegal to convert to a pistol. (as with many things, "is this legal" is a different question than "will I get caught")


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#11 Euler

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 04:32 PM

... (as with many things, "is this legal" is a different question than "will I get caught")


This.

Also rifle -> pistol is governed by a federal law. Chicago/Cook has nothing to do with it.
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#12 ScopeEye

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 05:20 PM

First off I don't know off hand what Chirock / Crook county laws are...

 

ATF rules as I understand them 

 

 Purchase an AR lower, it's listed as Other (not rifle, not pistol) on ATF form 4473

Purchasing a Lower with a stock  and no upper it's still listed as other.

( If a FFL writes it any other way they are doing it wrong)

 

It's  not a pistol or rifle until its assembled. (this includes a lower with a stock)

 

If it's first  built as a pistol it can be altered into a rifle  and back to a pistol when ever the owner wants.

 

If it's assembles as a rifle first, it's always a rifle with one exception it can be made into an SBR with proper paperwork and tax stamp.

 

To be a rifle the barrel must be a minimum of 16" in length.

 

 



#13 lockman

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 06:01 PM

So this brings up a question i just thought of. If you fab an 80% it can be converted from one to the other since its not registered as anything. It would just be your word that it started as a pistol right?


Yes, when you build an 80 lower always stick a pistol upper on it first. If I forget I would not know anyway as the get swapped around.


^ this ***

Edited by lockman, 13 January 2020 - 06:02 PM.

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#14 chicagoresident

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 07:10 PM

Here’s the fine print regarding Thompson vs US

Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits

The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled “rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845©. The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845©. Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of “firearm” in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.

Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.



#15 madcow1007

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 05:47 AM

Here is the preemption section of the ccl:

(430 ILCS 66/90)
Sec. 90. Preemption. The regulation, licensing, possession, registration, and transportation of handguns and ammunition for handguns by licensees are exclusive powers and functions of the State. Any ordinance or regulation, or portion thereof, enacted on or before the effective date of this Act that purports to impose regulations or restrictions on licensees or handguns and ammunition for handguns in a manner inconsistent with this Act shall be invalid in its application to licensees under this Act on the effective date of this Act. This Section is a denial and limitation of home rule powers and functions under subsection (h) of Section 6 of Article VII of the Illinois Constitution.


And the definition of handgun under ccl:


"Handgun" means any device which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas, or escape of gas that is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. "Handgun" does not include:
(1) a stun gun or taser;
(2) a machine gun as defined in item (i) of paragraph

(7) of subsection (a) of Section 24-1 of the Criminal Code of 2012;
(3) a short-barreled rifle or shotgun as defined in

item (ii) of paragraph (7) of subsection (a) of Section 24-1 of the Criminal Code of 2012; or
(4) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or

B-B gun which expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter, or which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second, or which expels breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors.

Edited by madcow1007, 14 January 2020 - 05:48 AM.


#16 RandyP

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 07:34 AM

One of my 'hobbies of passion' is recreational General Aviation and the EAA. The oft heard not real comedy 'slogan' of the FAA which also has rules that can be muddled, confusing and sometimes even contradictory (sound familiar to gun owners?) is "We're the FAA, we're not happy till you're not happy."


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#17 mikeyk101

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 04:40 PM

Here is the preemption section of the ccl:
(430 ILCS 66/90)
Sec. 90. Preemption. The regulation, licensing, possession, registration, and transportation of handguns and ammunition for handguns by licensees are exclusive powers and functions of the State. Any ordinance or regulation, or portion thereof, enacted on or before the effective date of this Act that purports to impose regulations or restrictions on licensees or handguns and ammunition for handguns in a manner inconsistent with this Act shall be invalid in its application to licensees under this Act on the effective date of this Act. This Section is a denial and limitation of home rule powers and functions under subsection (h) of Section 6 of Article VII of the Illinois Constitution.
And the definition of handgun under ccl:
"Handgun" means any device which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas, or escape of gas that is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. "Handgun" does not include:
(1) a stun gun or taser;
(2) a machine gun as defined in item (i) of paragraph
(7) of subsection (a) of Section 24-1 of the Criminal Code of 2012;
(3) a short-barreled rifle or shotgun as defined in
item (ii) of paragraph (7) of subsection (a) of Section 24-1 of the Criminal Code of 2012; or
(4) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or
B-B gun which expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter, or which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second, or which expels breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors.


The problem that those in charge are hanging their hat on is that the statute only mentions Handgun and ammo. They are of the belief that a magazine is not specifically mentioned so therefore isnt a part of the statute. So therefore, it can still be limited by home rule legislation. For the record, I absolutely dont agree with this as a pistol is basically a paperweight without a magazine and totally useless. A test case is going to be needed to clarify this.

Related to this, when LEOSA HR 218 act was first created to allow concealed carry to active and retired LEO's to be able to carry all over the country, the first creation only mentioned handguns and not ammunition. Some states actually charged off duty police officers for carrying unauthorized ammunition such as hollow points in New Jersey. A revision to the first one then added that any ammunition that was legal per federal law was allowed. However, even the latest revision still does not specifically mention pistol magazines and several states such as New York will charge off duty or retired officers carrying under LEOSA as a violation.

The whole premise is ridiculous as anyone who knows anything about semi auto pistols knows that magazines are a necessary part of the firearm and shouldn't have to be specifically mentioned...




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