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Cheeseman v. Polillo - NJ may-issue challenge


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#1 Euler

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 12:50 PM

Supreme Court 19-27

Like Gould v. Morgan, it's a challenge to a state may-issue carry laws, except in NJ instead of MA this time. Cheeseman applied for certiorari on June 28.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#2 Euler

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 09:08 PM

I was just looking again at the Supreme Court docket page. I didn't notice it before, but the respondents (essentially the state of NJ) failed to file a response by the due date (August 1) nor have they requested an extension. Meanwhile the Firearms Policy Coalition, the Firearms Policy Foundation, the California Gun Rights Foundation, and the Second Amendment Foundation have asked for permission to file an amici brief.

I wonder NJ's play is here. I doubt that it has decided to concede may-issue on behalf of all states that are may-issue.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#3 press1280

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 11:29 AM

Usually the state will just waive their reply brief. Not sure what happens if they simply do nothing.
In any event I'm sure they will be required to respond.

#4 domin8

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 11:59 AM

Keep in mind it's an appeal. The court will likely review all previous filings. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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#5 Charles Nichols

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 11:54 PM

Keep in mind it's an appeal. The court will likely review all previous filings. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

The justices might not ever review any filing and they certainly don't review all previous filings.  Cert petitions are not even distributed to the chambers of the justices unless there is a Brief In Opposition filed.  No Brief In Opposition filed and none requested equals a D.O.A. cert petition.

 

Unless you see on the SCOTUS docket that the record from the lower court was requested then the decision was made on the briefs.

 

For example, the Peruta v. San Diego cert petition was rejected based on the cert stage briefs.  Had the SCOTUS clerks reviewed the record from the lower courts then they would have noticed that neither the cert petition nor the State's Brief In Opposition accurately reflected the case that was decided by the lower courts.

 

That said, the reason why there is no request for a Brief In Opposition might be simply because there is a whole new batch of clerks coming up to speed.

 

As to why New Jersey has not filed a waiver (or extension or BIO), it could be as simple as they haven't been notified that the cert petition has been filed.

 

Or there has been some filing but the docket simply hasn't been updated.


Concealed carry is of no use to me because I don't carry a purse or wear a dress, and I'm not into secret advantage and unmanly assassination.

 

"Should the Open Carry movement become successful it will result in the greatest dissolution of government power since the collapse of the Soviet Union." - Charles Nichols
 
"If a monkey looks into a book, a sage cannot look out." - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
 
"La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." - Charles Baudelaire 
 
"God doesn't want me and the devil isn't finished with me." - Raymond Reddington
 
"When you lift the last veil, you might discover that your bride is an ignorant, illiterate child living in a world of fear and superstition." - Charles Nichols.* 
 
* I posted this on my Facebook page on May 20, 2011.  Unable to find its origin, I claim to be its creator.

#6 Euler

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 11:21 AM

No opposition brief has yet been filed (at least none listed on the web docket), but the case documents have been distributed today for an Oct 1 conference.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#7 Charles Nichols

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 11:20 PM

No opposition brief has yet been filed (at least none listed on the web docket), but the case documents have been distributed today for an Oct 1 conference.

Let us hope that there is some "vehicle problem" with Cheeseman's petition.  Ciolek, another handgun "carry" case out of New Jersey was filed almost three weeks after Cheeseman filed his petition.  New Jersey filed a waiver and then SCOTUS requested a response.


Concealed carry is of no use to me because I don't carry a purse or wear a dress, and I'm not into secret advantage and unmanly assassination.

 

"Should the Open Carry movement become successful it will result in the greatest dissolution of government power since the collapse of the Soviet Union." - Charles Nichols
 
"If a monkey looks into a book, a sage cannot look out." - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
 
"La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." - Charles Baudelaire 
 
"God doesn't want me and the devil isn't finished with me." - Raymond Reddington
 
"When you lift the last veil, you might discover that your bride is an ignorant, illiterate child living in a world of fear and superstition." - Charles Nichols.* 
 
* I posted this on my Facebook page on May 20, 2011.  Unable to find its origin, I claim to be its creator.

#8 Euler

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 01:13 AM

Polillo is the city police chief of Gloucester that denied Cheeseman his carry license. Cheeseman also names the NJ superior court judge to which he appealed (and was denied) as a respondent. Ciolek is suing NJ directly (represented by the Morris County DA), even though the city police chief of Denville and an unnamed superior court judge denied him his license.

Cheeseman appealed to the NJ supreme court. Ciolek appears not to have (or doesn't mention it in the petition), although he does appear to have sued the city's law division after the city police chief denied him.

Cheeseman's petition cites the 2A. Ciolek's petition cites the 2A and 14A.

Cheeseman has representation. Ciolek is pro se.

Cheeseman has an amicus brief in his favor (which to me seems to make his case better than his representation did) and another favorable amicus brief pending. Ciolek has none.

They're both challenging the state's exclusion of general self defense from "justifiable need."

If there's a vehicle problem, it's because they seem to have taken different paths to a petition. I guess we'll find out Oct 7.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#9 Charles Nichols

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 02:54 AM

Polillo is the city police chief of Gloucester that denied Cheeseman his carry license. Cheeseman also names the NJ superior court judge to which he appealed (and was denied) as a respondent. Ciolek is suing NJ directly (represented by the Morris County DA), even though the city police chief of Denville and an unnamed superior court judge denied him his license.

Cheeseman appealed to the NJ supreme court. Ciolek appears not to have (or doesn't mention it in the petition), although he does appear to have sued the city's law division after the city police chief denied him.

Cheeseman's petition cites the 2A. Ciolek's petition cites the 2A and 14A.

Cheeseman has representation. Ciolek is pro se.

Cheeseman has an amicus brief in his favor (which to me seems to make his case better than his representation did) and another favorable amicus brief pending. Ciolek has none.

They're both challenging the state's exclusion of general self defense from "justifiable need."

If there's a vehicle problem, it's because they seem to have taken different paths to a petition. I guess we'll find out Oct 7.

Different paths does not present a vehicle problem.  Also, there will be an Orders list released on October 1st with the fate of many of the cert petitions from the "Long Conference" which is held just prior to the October 1st conference.  Theoretically, we could get a grant of a 2A case which was heard in conference last term, or cert stage briefing completed but not scheduled for the October 1st (or later conference), such as Rogers (a New Jersey handgun "carry" case).

 

If these cases are instead denied then we won't have to hold our breath for the Orders List from the October 1st conference to be published.  The 2A and 2A/4A cases will fall like a house of cards.


Concealed carry is of no use to me because I don't carry a purse or wear a dress, and I'm not into secret advantage and unmanly assassination.

 

"Should the Open Carry movement become successful it will result in the greatest dissolution of government power since the collapse of the Soviet Union." - Charles Nichols
 
"If a monkey looks into a book, a sage cannot look out." - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
 
"La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." - Charles Baudelaire 
 
"God doesn't want me and the devil isn't finished with me." - Raymond Reddington
 
"When you lift the last veil, you might discover that your bride is an ignorant, illiterate child living in a world of fear and superstition." - Charles Nichols.* 
 
* I posted this on my Facebook page on May 20, 2011.  Unable to find its origin, I claim to be its creator.

#10 Charles Nichols

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 07:30 PM

New Jersey finally filed its waiver in Cheeseman, two weeks late.  And now we wait and see if SCOTUS requests a response.


Concealed carry is of no use to me because I don't carry a purse or wear a dress, and I'm not into secret advantage and unmanly assassination.

 

"Should the Open Carry movement become successful it will result in the greatest dissolution of government power since the collapse of the Soviet Union." - Charles Nichols
 
"If a monkey looks into a book, a sage cannot look out." - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
 
"La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." - Charles Baudelaire 
 
"God doesn't want me and the devil isn't finished with me." - Raymond Reddington
 
"When you lift the last veil, you might discover that your bride is an ignorant, illiterate child living in a world of fear and superstition." - Charles Nichols.* 
 
* I posted this on my Facebook page on May 20, 2011.  Unable to find its origin, I claim to be its creator.

#11 Euler

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 08:15 PM

New Jersey finally filed its waiver in Cheeseman, two weeks late.  And now we wait and see if SCOTUS requests a response.


Wow, and what an awesome submission it is, too. It looks like they dug up some form from the 1970s, filled it in with a manual typewriter, and FAXed it.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#12 Charles Nichols

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 05:02 AM

 

New Jersey finally filed its waiver in Cheeseman, two weeks late.  And now we wait and see if SCOTUS requests a response.


Wow, and what an awesome submission it is, too. It looks like they dug up some form from the 1970s, filled it in with a manual typewriter, and FAXed it.

 

The waiver form is provided by the Supreme Court -> https://www.supremec...hand/waiver.pdf


Concealed carry is of no use to me because I don't carry a purse or wear a dress, and I'm not into secret advantage and unmanly assassination.

 

"Should the Open Carry movement become successful it will result in the greatest dissolution of government power since the collapse of the Soviet Union." - Charles Nichols
 
"If a monkey looks into a book, a sage cannot look out." - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
 
"La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." - Charles Baudelaire 
 
"God doesn't want me and the devil isn't finished with me." - Raymond Reddington
 
"When you lift the last veil, you might discover that your bride is an ignorant, illiterate child living in a world of fear and superstition." - Charles Nichols.* 
 
* I posted this on my Facebook page on May 20, 2011.  Unable to find its origin, I claim to be its creator.

#13 press1280

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 08:13 AM

I would be shocked if Scotus DIDN'T request a response.

#14 Tango7

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 05:53 PM

They should call Carol Bowne as a witness.

carol-bowne.jpg?w=600


Edited by Tango7, 17 August 2019 - 05:54 PM.

You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#15 Charles Nichols

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 08:12 PM

I would be shocked if Scotus DIDN'T request a response.

Why?  The justices are unlikely to even read the cert petition, let alone a Brief In Opposition.  The justices might read the memos prepared by the SCOTUS clerks and request a response but unless that happens, the fate of the Cheeseman cert petition lies in the hands of the SCOTUS clerks.

 

Justices Alito and Gorsuch say they read all 8,000 to 10,000 cert petitions filed each year.  I won't question their word but I will question just how carefully a justice can read that many cert petitions in addition to everything else a justice does.


Concealed carry is of no use to me because I don't carry a purse or wear a dress, and I'm not into secret advantage and unmanly assassination.

 

"Should the Open Carry movement become successful it will result in the greatest dissolution of government power since the collapse of the Soviet Union." - Charles Nichols
 
"If a monkey looks into a book, a sage cannot look out." - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
 
"La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." - Charles Baudelaire 
 
"God doesn't want me and the devil isn't finished with me." - Raymond Reddington
 
"When you lift the last veil, you might discover that your bride is an ignorant, illiterate child living in a world of fear and superstition." - Charles Nichols.* 
 
* I posted this on my Facebook page on May 20, 2011.  Unable to find its origin, I claim to be its creator.

#16 press1280

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 06:02 AM

 

I would be shocked if Scotus DIDN'T request a response.

Why?  The justices are unlikely to even read the cert petition, let alone a Brief In Opposition.  The justices might read the memos prepared by the SCOTUS clerks and request a response but unless that happens, the fate of the Cheeseman cert petition lies in the hands of the SCOTUS clerks.

 

Justices Alito and Gorsuch say they read all 8,000 to 10,000 cert petitions filed each year.  I won't question their word but I will question just how carefully a justice can read that many cert petitions in addition to everything else a justice does.

 

SCOTUS has almost always requested a response in 2A cases except the in the most far reaching longshot of cases. The recent crop of cases (maybe the last 6 months or so) have all been held by SCOTUS except an NFA case. Since this is almost a copycat of the Rogers case (being held), and a response was requested in the NJ pro se carry case, SCOTUS requesting a response here is almost a sure bet to me.

Whether the justices actually read it, that's a different matter.



#17 Charles Nichols

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 06:38 PM

Every 2A cert petition and not just the (two) NFA cases has been denied since McDonald with the exception of Caetano and NYSRPA regardless of whether or not the cert petitions were long shots. Attached is a non-exhaustive list of seven cert petitions denied from this last term where a waiver was filed and SCOTUS did not request a response.  Two, from California and Illinois, were straight up and down concealed carry cases.  SCOTUS denied twice as many (or more) that I know of where a response was requested, including Rothery (out of California) which, at the time, was the oldest "carry" case left standing (filed a decade ago on 8/252009).

 

The Supreme Court is a place where the justices do not use email or computers.  Messages between the justices are written down and passed by hand from one justice to another via their clerks.  The Clerks write brief memos for the justices to read instead of the cert petitions with a grant/deny recommendation.  A clerk's memo recommending a "grant" might be enough for the justices to read the memo.  I suspect the other 8-10k memos with "deny" recommendations aren't read by the justices any more than are the cert petitions.

 

Being a "copycat" case is irrelevant, doubly so if nobody in the hallowed halls of SCOTUS notices it is a copycat case.

 

 
John Cassidy, Petitioner v. Massachusetts - Felony convictions for in-home possession of firearms legal in Texas but not Massachusetts.
Donte Timothy Bacon, Petitioner v. United States - Obliterated serial number on a handgun.
Christos Koutentis, Petitioner v. New York City Police Department, Licensing Division - Handgun license revocation.
Eduardo Salgado, Petitioner v. California - Concealed carry.
Kevin Wayne Vanover and Meredith Ann Yates, Petitioners v. United States - Drugs and guns.
Michael Albert Focia, Petitioner v. United States - Convicted for dealing in firearms without a federal firearms license, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(1)(A), and selling firearms to unlicensed residents of states other than his own without having a license to do so, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(5). 
Eduardo Gomez, Petitioner v. Illinois - Concealed carry.

 

 


Concealed carry is of no use to me because I don't carry a purse or wear a dress, and I'm not into secret advantage and unmanly assassination.

 

"Should the Open Carry movement become successful it will result in the greatest dissolution of government power since the collapse of the Soviet Union." - Charles Nichols
 
"If a monkey looks into a book, a sage cannot look out." - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
 
"La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." - Charles Baudelaire 
 
"God doesn't want me and the devil isn't finished with me." - Raymond Reddington
 
"When you lift the last veil, you might discover that your bride is an ignorant, illiterate child living in a world of fear and superstition." - Charles Nichols.* 
 
* I posted this on my Facebook page on May 20, 2011.  Unable to find its origin, I claim to be its creator.

#18 Euler

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:15 PM

Update in the Cheeseman case, "Aug 19 2019 Response Requested. (Due September 18, 2019)"

The Respondents can ask for an up to sixty day extension to file the Response. One would think they would simply boilerplate one of their previously filed responses.


The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.





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