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Is this a problem for Midwest Sporting Goods in Lyons?


chibooey

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Midwest rents guns to the person with the FOID and gives them a range stall; the renter then gives the firearm to his guest. It is up to the renter to know who they are giving a gun to. Same as any other range. They can't perform criminal background checks on the dozens of guests who stream in for an hour's rental all day long, especially on Fridays (ugh, Fridays ... oh, the horror stories ...).

 

Then you've never read the ISP's booklet on the FOID/gun laws/ interpretation handbook. There are interpretation changes every year. The general public per say is not offered even a look at this book and most FFL's won't tell you about it. Become a long time trusted employee in one of the larger gun stores and you will probably be allowed to thumb through it each year.

 

What I said up there is correct. How the store decides to conduct business is up to them. But they own the gun, not the renter, so it is the duty of the store to at least ask if the person is not disqualified from optaining a FOID. It's in the ISP's interpretation handbook. Don't do that and it's a sting, probably loose you state license.

 

It's nothing like the "how to trainsport firearms" couple page flyers and such. The handbook quotes case law and is written by lawyers and can be a little difficult for many to understand, so that's not why every employee ever learns of it's existance.

 

Actual name of "secret book" so I can file a FOIA request?

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I feel for you guys stuck shooting at public ranges. I was at one that had a 3 second per round rule, talk about crazy slow, but that's range visit is a story unto itself. I'm trying to remember if my usual indoor range ever asked me about my guests or not, but I don't think so. It's probably something they should be doing from the sound of things. I shoot mostly at a private club on open berms, it's like FREEDOM!, compare to some of these places.

 

BigRat

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I feel for you guys stuck shooting at public ranges. I was at one that had a 3 second per round rule, talk about crazy slow, but that's range visit is a story unto itself. I'm trying to remember if my usual indoor range ever asked me about my guests or not, but I don't think so. It's probably something they should be doing from the sound of things. I shoot mostly at a private club on open berms, it's like FREEDOM!, compare to some of these places.

 

BigRat

Freedom and paradise. What part of the state are you in?

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Go to JRs find out why the web page says shoot as long as you want for $19.99 * with purchase, but they won't honor it for your rifle? The secret FOID book is behind that little gem. The owner's are crabby because as much as they want to explain why they can't change such an idiotic mistake on a website, the first rule of Secret FOID book forbid it.
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So, no secret Foid book then?

I'm sorry I didn't get back in here fast enough.

 

Haven't been here to my knowledge between working on a property we're selling 60-80 hrs a week and allergies that kicked in 150% and have almost sent me to the emergency room twice since friday.

 

I'll get you the name of the handbook.

 

Hopefully I'm able to do it in a timely fashion that fits your schedule best.

 

By the way. Several years ago in a post I did ask Todd if he'd ever seen the booklet I'm talking about. Not one snarky comment back then and I'm still hearing crickets on the answer.

 

Hopefully I don't have a bad enough coughing fit that can cause me to black out, but it's supposed to rain tomorrow and I'll risk driving 70 miles, just for you guys and be able to thumb through a 2015 version.

 

So if I don't die in the process, I'll have the name,

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I'm being polite and will wait to see it, but I know a thing or two about the law, and I can't find anything. Do I assume this is some kind of internal policy of how they are interpreting current law and will choose to enforce it? I can't find it on the ISP's list of publications, nor the state list. I'm assuming this does exist, so I'd appreciate any info on it. Just seems a bit odd that they would provide this only to FFL's and ranges to basically say, "this is how we are going to interpret what the law is and what we want you to do," and make such a publication unavailable to anyone else. So, a rather tight to the vest summary of current case law and interpretation?

 

IMO, something like that would be akin to an administrative rule making. Those are supposed to be public. Please, FST, help us out here.

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You are correct. These are administrative rules.

 

One rule(s) that changed frequently during my time with the FFL pertained to air gun sales in IL. The threshold of caliber and fps changed several times determining if a FOID, state background check, and wait applied.

 

It's along these lines, but I don't believe this is it.

 

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/020/02001230sections.html

 

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What I linked above is barely near the ballpark.

 

I'm looking for the brochure the disclaimer at the bottom of this answers alludes to.

 

https://ispffl.com/Public/FAQ.aspx

 

Dealer Overview
What are the Illinois Waiting Periods?

Pursuant to Illinois law, 720 ILCS 5/24-3, sellers must withhold delivery of a long gun, rifle or shotgun, for 24 hours and a handgun for 72 hours from the time the application for purchase has been reached. Violation of that provision is Unlawful Sale or Delivery of Firearms and is a Class 4 Felony, punishable by up to 1-3 years in the Illinois Department of Corrections.

Illinois State Police have been fielding an increase in requests for clarification on how to abide by the waiting period and when it begins.

According to 720 ILCS 5/24-3(g) the waiting period of 24 or 72 hours does not begin until after its application for purchase has been made. The statute defines "application" as:

"For purposes of this paragraph (g), "application" means when the buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm."

In People vs. Hurtado, 208 Ill.App.3d 110 (2nd District, 1991), the Second District Appellate Court took the position that "application" was a "request". The court said:

"We therefore conclude that the legislature intended that the term "application" have the meaning of "request" and the statutory requirement is an informal request to purchase a firearm. Since we believe the legislature intended that "application" mean "request," we shall use the terms "application" and "request" interchangeably. "

Illinois statute picks up on the Court's reasoning in Hurtado, and formalizes that there is in fact intent to buy a firearm by virtue of an agreement. The statute does not spell out what needs to be in the agreement, or the manner in which it is to be memorialized.

ISP concludes that the waiting period to purchase a firearm as defined under state law, 720 ILCS 5/24-3(g) begins when the buyer and seller reach the "agreement" to purchase the firearm and that agreement may be formalized in a number of ways. As the FFL will be required to answer any questions raised by ATF inspectors as to how the waiting period was observed, ISP suggest that FFLs memorialize the agreement in some form that is verifiable and consistent with each purchaser. Here are a couple of questions that have been raised:

  • When a customer has a gun shipped from another FFL or out of state, when does the waiting period begin? The waiting period starts when the agreement is reached with the seller. It need not be the FFL making the transfer of the firearm. If the firearm was paid for and/or shipped from another FFL, the waiting period began prior to when the FFL conducting the transfer received the firearm.

  • Can a customer call up and order a firearm over the phone, then come in and pick up the firearm later? The waiting period begins when the buyer and seller reach an agreement. FFLs need to document how the waiting period was observed. The documentation needs to be verifiable and consistent with each purchaser.

  • What happens if a customer orders a firearm, and when he comes into pick it up, ISP issues something other than an approval on the FTIP? The actual transfer of the firearm cannot take place until there is an approval from the FTIP system, regardless of when the agreement was reached. If the FFL receives a transaction number, they cannot complete the transfer until they receive an approval.

  • Do FFLs have to wait when transferring firearms between FFLs? There is no waiting period between retail FFLs. And Curio and Relic (C&R) FFLs are exempt from the waiting period for those firearms that appear on the ATF&E C&R list and fall under the C&R license.

NOTE: This is the interpretation of the Illinois State Police. Individual FFLs may have their own policies and procedures to observe the waiting period.

 



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OK. Just so everyone knows.

 

Didn't rain until later today and I worked outside until it was gonna rain and my head and body couldn't take it anymore. So, didn't go on my investigation. I'd call some people, but Froggie from the old Little Rascals shows sounds better than I do right now.

 

Before I go on my investigation I have to finish 3 hrs of mowing left this cycle, need to spray by hand 250 gallons of algeacide, 200 gallons of glyphosphate, and spray by boom 200 gallons of 2-4-D, and at least 50 gallons of 2-4-D Amine. There's also the 30 plus yards of woodchip mulch to spread left from the 170 yards I started with a couple weeks ago. Crap, I gotta trim for a few hrs too!

 

There's only one of me and in a given day I'll operate all or most of my equipment: 2 different tractor loaders and or mowers depending what job they are set up for, my truck, my dump trailer, sprayer, chainshaw, trimmer, and my favorite manure pitch fork and steel rake.

 

My best advice until I meet with my source, would be to find a FFL buddy who doesn't mind logging on the ISP's firearm dealer section. The general public can only get the question and answer above.and my hunch is now the ISP's interpretations I have been referring to is only available by a FFL online. Just like FOID app's and renewals..

 

Maybe somebody has a hacker friend that would wanna give it a try :laugh:

 

https://ispffl.com/Public/home.aspx

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Posted · Hidden by mauserme, May 21, 2015 at 05:49 AM - No reason given
Hidden by mauserme, May 21, 2015 at 05:49 AM - No reason given
OK. Just so everyone knows.

 

Didn't rain until later today and I worked outside until it was gonna rain and my head and body couldn't take it anymore. So, didn't go on my investigation. I'd call some people, but Froggie from the old Little Rascals shows sounds better than I do right now.

 

Before I go on my investigation I have to finish 3 hrs of mowing left this cycle, need to spray by hand 250 gallons of algeacide, 200 gallons of glyphosphate, and spray by boom 200 gallons of 2-4-D, and at least 50 gallons of 2-4-D Amine. There's also the 30 plus yards of woodchip mulch to spread left from the 170 yards I started with a couple weeks ago. Crap, I gotta trim for a few hrs too!

 

There's only one of me and in a given day I'll operate all or most of my equipment: 2 different tractor loaders and or mowers depending what job they are set up for, my truck, my dump trailer, sprayer, chainshaw, trimmer, and my favorite manure pitch fork and steel rake.

 

My best advice until I meet with my source, would be to find a FFL buddy who doesn't mind logging on the ISP's firearm dealer section. The general public can only get the question and answer above.and my hunch is now the ISP's interpretations I have been referring to is only available by a FFL online. Just like FOID app's and renewals..

 

Maybe somebody has a hacker friend that would wanna give it a try :laugh:

 

https://ispffl.com/Public/home.aspx

Ya know, they make illegals for this type of thing.

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Just far enough north and east of St.Louis that it's mostly farmland. Moro IL to be exact. I shoot up in Bunkerhill at a private club but the dues are fairly cheap.

 

BigRat

i live in Litchfield and we have a nice private club too. Bunker Hill isn't bad but they don't have the nice benches and covered shooting areas we do. Nor do they have the heated/air conditioned clubhouse with indoor bathroom.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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OK. Just so everyone knows.

 

Didn't rain until later today and I worked outside until it was gonna rain and my head and body couldn't take it anymore. So, didn't go on my investigation. I'd call some people, but Froggie from the old Little Rascals shows sounds better than I do right now.

 

Before I go on my investigation I have to finish 3 hrs of mowing left this cycle, need to spray by hand 250 gallons of algeacide, 200 gallons of glyphosphate, and spray by boom 200 gallons of 2-4-D, and at least 50 gallons of 2-4-D Amine. There's also the 30 plus yards of woodchip mulch to spread left from the 170 yards I started with a couple weeks ago. Crap, I gotta trim for a few hrs too!

 

There's only one of me and in a given day I'll operate all or most of my equipment: 2 different tractor loaders and or mowers depending what job they are set up for, my truck, my dump trailer, sprayer, chainshaw, trimmer, and my favorite manure pitch fork and steel rake.

 

My best advice until I meet with my source, would be to find a FFL buddy who doesn't mind logging on the ISP's firearm dealer section. The general public can only get the question and answer above.and my hunch is now the ISP's interpretations I have been referring to is only available by a FFL online. Just like FOID app's and renewals..

 

Maybe somebody has a hacker friend that would wanna give it a try :laugh:

 

https://ispffl.com/Public/home.aspx

That's what landscapers are for!

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