Only Police Should Have Firearms: Denver Edition

[ddan]

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/11/29/new-details-bizarre-shooting/

 

Ok, so the lady was probably drunk or otherwise impaired, but really: 28 rounds into another LEO vehicle? I think that's a violation of a few of the four rules....

 

Photos of the crime scene obtained by CBS4 also show that in the bursts of gunfire, an Arapahoe County deputy accidentally shot up a state patrol cruiser. Reports suggest the patrol vehicle was struck 28 times. The deputy was standing immediately behind the car but was apparently unaware that many of his shots intended for Johnson were actually hitting the patrol car.

[Jeckler]

50+ shots on a stationary target and none connected with the target? Pistols, Shotgun and AR's were used, yet none hit the target?

 

At least 28 apparently missed (or over penetrated) the intended target and hit the patrol vehicle. Others may have missed both altogether. Unbelievable.

 

I can't imagine unloading 50 rounds and not hitting a man sized stationary target....or even hitting the car she was sitting within.

[SiliconSorcerer]

This is one of the arguments that was made to go back to 9mm vs 40 just plain more rounds because well they don't hit the intended target very well....

[ChicagoRonin70]

This is one of the arguments that was made to go back to 9mm vs 40 just plain more rounds because well they don't hit the intended target very well....

 

Apparently, according to the news story, neither do .223s and 12-gauge shotguns hit the target very well.

 

It's the shooter, and not the caliber of the ammunition, is my view.

[Keith44]

It is the caliber of the shooter rather than the caliber of the ammunition...

[357]

So police can't hit their target with more than 50 shots but the antis want us civilians to have no more than 10 round low capacity magazines when criminals often attack at night in groups of 3 or 4.

[cybermgk]

Well, after 2 big volleys at the car, they did up the ante, so that's good "After about two hours, law enforcement brought in an armored vehicle to approach her car."

[barryware]

<> N/M

[lawman]

Numerous felonies dismissed after she pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and received probation. They must have brought in a Cook County prosecutor to obtain a conviction like that.

[cybermgk]

Numerous felonies dismissed after she pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and received probation. They must have brought in a Cook County prosecutor to obtain a conviction like that.

I think that is called Controlled Civil Action Evasion Tactics, or ConCEAT.

[Elderberry]

It is the caliber of the shooter rather than the caliber of the ammunition...

Nailed it....

[Illinois Sucks]

 

At least 28 apparently missed (or over penetrated) the intended target and hit the patrol vehicle. Others may have missed both altogether. Unbelievable.

 

 

It sounded more to me like a cop was hitting the car he was using as a barricade / bench rest. He didn' think about the sight to bore distance and while he had a clear sight picture, the bullets were skimming across the roof of the car.

[brianj - now in Kansas]

Okay, 25 yards at night, with the cops' light bars going off, and the target in a vehicle behind glass? I'll admit that she'd have been a difficult target with a handgun, and depending on the load, a shotgun as well. I'd have thought that SOMEONE could have put at least one AR round on target, though.

 

Not to remove all blame from these guys, but killing a B-27 silhouette at 25 yards in controlled conditions is very different from what these guys were doing.

 

Bri

[RandyP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej7K9bRWJVQ

[Hipshot Percussion]

Okay, 25 yards at night, with the cops' light bars going off, and the target in a vehicle behind glass? I'll admit that she'd have been a difficult target with a handgun, and depending on the load, a shotgun as well. I'd have thought that SOMEONE could have put at least one AR round on target, though.

 

Not to remove all blame from these guys, but killing a B-27 silhouette at 25 yards in controlled conditions is very different from what these guys were doing.

 

Bri

+1 I have an amazing book - Encyclopedia of Western Gunfighters (University of Oklahoma Press) - that takes all gunfighters (two or more confirmed shooting incidents) in the old west, circa 1860 or so through early 1900;'s and gives detailed accounts of each of their gunfights. In many cases with two gunfighters involved in the same shooting you will be given accounts from each perspective - through newspaper articles and first-person accounts. The book gives stats, is well written and incredibly engrossing. If you are an old west lover, this book is a must.

 

That being said, one thing that I learned from the book is this - in close quarters gunfights, accuracy is nearly non-existent for many. The sheer amounts of gunfights in the book, in close quarters (saloon, restaurant, home) where multiple shooters are firing at each other and no one hits anyone is astounding. Think 5 guys within 10' of each other banging away and when the smoke clears (no smokeless gunpowder until the 1890's) no one is hit or someone has nothing more than a hole in their lower leg.

 

Wyatt Earp said - "The most important lesson I learned from those proficient gunfighters (Tom Speer and friends) was the winner of a gunplay usually was the man who took his time... When I say that I learned to take my time in a gunfight, I do not wish to be misunderstood, for the time to be taken was only that split fraction of a second that means the difference between deadly accuracy with a sixgun and a miss. It is hard to make this clear to a man who has never been in a gunfight. Perhaps I can best describe such time taking as going into action with the greatest speed of which a man’s muscles are capable, but mentally unflustered by an urge to hurry or the need for complicated nervous and muscular actions which trick-shooting involves. Mentally deliberate, but muscularly faster than thought, is what I mean."

 

Obviously, this is what we train for.

 

But I've never been in a gunfight so I don't know, but from everything we've all read, missing your target is something you are probably going to do - especially as the distance gets further away. I don't know what they were up against in the moment, the flashing lights, the noise, the darkness, the fear, the adrenaline, but I have to believe it must've been the scariest moment of their lives. Shocked they missed? Not so much.

[WitchDoctor]

Hipshot said:

"That being said, one thing that I learned from the book is this - in close quarters gunfights, accuracy is nearly non-existent for many. The sheer amounts of gunfights in the book, in close quarters (saloon, restaurant, home) where multiple shooters are firing at each other and no one hits anyone is astounding. Think 5 guys within 10' of each other banging away and when the smoke clears (no smokeless gunpowder until the 1890's) no one is hit or someone has nothing more than a hole in their lower leg."

 

I have been in many CQB situations with pistols in Iraq. The only thing that exists is chaos. In Fallujah we were chasing some a-holes through a row of house and gunfire burst from all sides, we just knew which side our guys were on and let it rock. This was at 1.5 meters or less. Accuracy was no where to be found, just balls and dead a-holes.

[ChicagoRonin70]

Every time I have been in a combat situation, whether military, security work, fighting, or self-defense, I have never had the issue with being overwhelmed with adrenaline and the chaos. I get dead calm in such situations, and everything seems to slow down around me, while I see, hear, feel, and even smell with an almost uncanny clarity. In combat, using a scoped rifle, I was able to actually see the bullet track, like a thin, ghostly ripple with a spot at the leading edge to it, as shown in this video clip. Every time I've shot at a person, whether with a long gun or handgun, I've hit what I was aiming for. Although, with a handgun as compared to a rifle, the results are decidedly not as "guaranteed" to be a DRT incident.

 

For example, the one time I shot at someone in a "civilian" situation, when I was in my early 20s (so well over 20 years ago), I and two employees of the company I was working for were ambushed at a bank drop by an individual with a revolver and his baseball bat-wielding accomplice. I always had my firearm in hand before I left the vehicle, just in case, so I was able to immediately fire one round at the individual with the firearm and hit him in the hand that was holding it. I aimed center mass; he happened to be holding his firearm in front of his chest; not a deliberate disarm shot, just lucky for him that's where the round impacted. Otherwise, it would have been a clean shot from a few yards away, right to the chest.

 

I could see immediately that he was disarmed, because parts of his hand and the pistol flew everywhere (it was a cheap, street piece, and I was shooting 10mm 200 grain hollow point handloads going about 1,250 fps). I could actually make out a finger spinning through the air under the parking lot floodlights. He screamed, turned around, and ran the H ell out of there before I could get off a second shot. Granted, I was also moving to interpose myself between the two female employees and the bat-wielding guy, who took off when he apparently heard my Glock 20 go off to put a round on his buddy, so I was having to divide my attention between the two, and that's what prevented me from getting off a second round at the first guy, because I was shifting my aim towards the bat-wielder.

 

All of that happened in only a few seconds, but it seemed like an amazingly long amount of time. The security footage confirms that it was a very quick incident, and the two employees who were carrying the cash told me afterwards that they barely had time to register what was going on or what happened, just saw the two guys jump out near the bank drop-off as we got out of the vehicle, heard my firearm go off, the shot guy scream, and then the two guys scattered.

 

Of course, I've been training in numerous fighting styles since I was 6, have been in hundreds of fights both competitively and street situations, and been in actual close quarters combat on more than a few occasions. But, it really has always been that way, the extreme expansion of perception, the feeling that I'm moving faster than everything around me. It's a very strange sensation, but it is something that seems to run in my family, being uncannily calm under the threat of violence. I've talked about it with my father, who was a former pro boxer, and he described pretty much the same thing when he was in the ring. Same thing with my brothers and my uncles; they all "know the feeling."

 

So, actual experience in such situations does vary; I'm aware that mine is a bit unusual, but I'm sure it isn't unique.

[MrTriple]

The fact is that your average cop can’t be trusted with a weapon. Look at how often they miss their targets when compared to CCW licensees. Look at that innocent kid who got killed during a SWATTING attempt: he wasn’t even the right target! The guy who called gave a fake address!

 

Not only can you NOT trust the police in general, you can’t even trust them if you find you need their assistance.

[C0untZer0]

[bmurph44]

The fact is that your average cop can’t be trusted with a weapon. Look at how often they miss their targets when compared to CCW licensees. Look at that innocent kid who got killed during a SWATTING attempt: he wasn’t even the right target! The guy who called gave a fake address!

Not only can you NOT trust the police in general, you can’t even trust them if you find you need their assistance.

WOW........