172 replies to this topic

[Hipshot Percussion]

 

For what it's worth... If I am drawing my sidearm, I have made the decision that I am about to die.  That's the only reason for me to pull my gun.  That's the only thing I will be thinking about in a situation of this kind.  Not "it is justified."  Not "disparity of force."  Nothing like that.
 
"I am about to die."
 
Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly

So given the scenerio proposed, since it's not a gun or knife but still potentially deadly weapon plus numbered 2 to 1, does that fall into a reasonable assumption of possible death?

 

I'm saying its instinctual.  At least for me.  Any scenario has more variables than we can articulate.  How I see it in my head is different from how you see it in your head.  I've been attacked by knife.  I have been in a fight with multiple opponents.  When you're as old as I am you've been in a tight situation or three.  To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart - I may not be able to describe a bad situation, but I know one when I see one. 

 

I think, for me, there is a mental checkdown.  Bad situation coming my way.  Can I get out?  Whats my best defense?  Is this a fist fight or is this something worse?  And so on and so on.  And it happens in moments.  Faster than you are aware.  It's a series of reactions to mental inputs.  But in the worst case scenario, I believe pulling my sidearm will be a physical response to the realization that I am about to die.  The realization that this is going to happen and there is NO way to avoid it.

 

You could give me 1000 situations and I believe it would be hard for me not to find a way to skee daddle in 999 of them.  I want out.  I don't want a fight.  I don't want a confrontation.

 

The most important part of concealed carry, beyond my training, is to live in condition yellow.  That's where I live.  I make condition yellow my comfort zone.  Hopefully that will keep me out of the fray.

 

So it always will come down to "I am about to die."  The reason you are pulling your gun is not because of the situation.  You pull your gun because your mind screamed at you - "I am about to die."

 

Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly

Edited by Hipshot Percussion, 25 May 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[HK45]

A forcible felony is defined in the Criminal Code of 1961:
"treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual
assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnapping,
kidnapping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement[,] and any other felony
which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual."
"

 

This is the definition of forcible felony. Yes, the same one the prosecutors use. 

Great bodily harm usually means broken bones and/or stitches. There was case law where someone got stabbed with a pen, but because no medical treatment was required it was determined to not be great bodily harm by the appellate court. 

 

If youre the victim of a burglary, you have the right to use deadly force, whether the burglar is armed or not. This is according to the law and is supported by anecdotal evidence (almost every news story i hear about the homeowner or business owner shooting burglars/robbers, the victims are not charged).

 

However, there have been a couple of cases, one in OK and one in MN, where burglary/robbery victims were charged with murder for continuing to shoot and kill the criminals after they were already shot and incapacitated (Ersland case and Byron Smith case). 

In those cases, once the 'threat was stopped', then they no longer had to right to press the attack. At least that's what the juries thought in their cases, and they're doing life in prison for it. 

 

So if you do shoot a burglar or robber, you don't have to right to walk up to them as they're moaning in pain and trying to staunch the bleeding, and deliver the coup de grace. No more than a cop would. 

 

 

 

 

 

[thedriver]

This may be the wrong place for this question. If so, i apologize.
I can legally carry on my property, and I can legally possess a firearm in my dwelling.

By definition a dwelling is:
(720 ILCS 5/2‑6) (from Ch. 38, par. 2‑6)
Sec. 2‑6. "Dwelling". (a) Except as otherwise provided in subsection ( of this Section, "dwelling" means a building or portion thereof, a tent, a vehicle, or other enclosed space which is used or intended for use as a human habitation, home or residence.

If I am camping a "Tent" is my dwelling but what about the area around the tent? Is that considered my "temporary property" and can I possess a firearm if I am in my campsite?

I do all the time, I am just not sure if it is legal!

Well dwelling can also mean a cardboard box which a cardboard box is an enclosed structure

[Harry]

We need "Castle Doctrine" here in Illinois. It would lift the fog of law.

[Bud]

We need "Castle Doctrine" here in Illinois. It would lift the fog of law.

no we don't.

 

The law in Illinois is actually better than any "castle doctrine'.

 

Read any other State law that includes it to the Illinois law and you will see that is true.

 

Most of the people here have been involved in this for years. We have always been very much aware of how good the self defense laws in Illinois are.

 

There is no "fog". It has been well tested in court on numerous occasions and has been proved to protect the victim quite well.

 

Castle Doctrine is actually more restrictive than the Illinois law. Castle doctrine restricts self defense to your abode while the Illinois affirmative defense law is non-geographical restricetive.

 

How is castle doctrine better than existing illinois law?

[Getzapped]

We need "Castle Doctrine" here in Illinois. It would lift the fog of law.


no we don't.
 
The law in Illinois is actually better than any "castle doctrine'.
 
Read any other State law that includes it to the Illinois law and you will see that is true.
 
Most of the people here have been involved in this for years. We have always been very much aware of how good the self defense laws in Illinois are.
 
There is no "fog". It has been well tested in court on numerous occasions and has been proved to protect the victim quite well.
 
Castle Doctrine is actually more restrictive than the Illinois law. Castle doctrine restricts self defense to your abode while the Illinois affirmative defense law is non-geographical restricetive.
 
How is castle doctrine better than existing illinois law?

Agreed.

[Tango7]

We have an advantage in that our law has nothing to do with the "racist", "unjust" or "discriminatory" castle laws, as well as the fact that it pre-dates the newer, more (artificially) controversial ones.

[Pipedoc]

We already have castle doctrine laws here.

[GWBH]

I would talk to your local prosecutor's office for clarification.

I can guarantee you that every county office will have a somewhat different view - just make sure that if you have to pull the trigger, it had better be your last resort after you've exhausted all other reasonable attempts to stop any aggression.

[Klaxongreg]

At least once a month I'm at a gas station filling my tank on the outskirts of a hood. Invariably, I see hood rats approach, ususally in 2s and sometimes 3s.

What to do.

There's a very simple procedure for staying safe at gas stations where most holdups occur.

If you are not armed;

Keep your hand on the gas filler that's in your tank and keep your head on a pivot panning 360°. Never take your hand off.

They approach by first asking if you have a dollar or some change. Say NO! Say the word NO in a commanding voice. They'll be at 16 to 20 feet out. Equivocation invites them to close that distance.

If they take one more step toward you, like the two did to me last week, take that Gas nozzle out of the tank fill and hold it.

That is more fearsome to a perp. than a gun. You've just put the imagery of a flame thrower in their mind and they keep walking. Works every time.

I tell them, "DO NOT APPROACH ME!" And they don't. I don't care how many of them there are, they'll give you a wide birth.

My personal survival lesson when filling the car at Gas stations especially for unarmed ladies. The gas nozzle (brandishing) is a more formidable (psychological) weapon than the Gun.

Being a hapless victim is about instant imagery. I've been sized up as a victim many times. I've learned from my mistakes.

[Glock23]

At least once a month I'm at a gas station filling my tank on the outskirts of a hood. Invariably, I see hood rats approach, ususally in 2s and sometimes 3s.
What to do.
There's a very simple procedure for staying safe at gas stations where most holdups occur.
If you are not armed;
Keep your hand on the gas filler that's in your tank and keep your head on a pivot panning 360°. Never take your hand off.
They approach by first asking if you have a dollar or some change. Say NO! Say the word NO in a commanding voice. They'll be at 16 to 20 feet out. Equivocation invites them to close that distance.
If they take one more step toward you, like the two did to me last week, take that Gas nozzle out of the tank fill and hold it.
That is more fearsome to a perp. than a gun. You've just put the imagery of a flame thrower in their mind and they keep walking. Works every time.
I tell them, "DO NOT APPROACH ME!" And they don't. I don't care how many of them there are, they'll give you a wide birth.
My personal survival lesson when filling the car at Gas stations especially for unarmed ladies. The gas nozzle (brandishing) is a more formidable (psychological) weapon than the Gun.
Being a hapless victim is about instant imagery. I've been sized up as a victim many times. I've learned from my mistakes.

Seems to me you need to adjust the places/times that you're filling up.

[Klaxongreg]

I work in the Hood much. North St. Louis. I go outside it to fill up...but sometimes it makes no diff.

[Harry]

Bud:

I was thinking more on the subject of "Stand your ground" rather than "Castle Doctrine". I mistakenly assumed castle doctrine was the same thing. I stand corrected. I'm learning.

Some Internet sources say Illinois does have stand your ground and others say we don't and others say we have "similar" laws. Does anybody know for sure?

 

As to gas stations, to make a long story short, many years ago, I was traveling to Detroit in a company car and I was going along making great time. I was certainly not familiar with Detroit's neighborhoods, and when you are making good time, you don't want to stop, but I had to or I would have ran out of gas on the freeway. I pulled into my "gas station of last resort" and it looked like a gang convention was going on there in front of the door. I used my plastic at the pump and was not bothered at all. If the pump reader hadn't worked, I'd have had to wade through all those people to go inside to pay. That might have been ugly because I really don't interact well with thugs or drunks. However, I'm happy to have avoided that mob. You never know when you will be instantly faced with a dangerous situation.

[Glock23]

Bud:
I was thinking more on the subject of "Stand your ground" rather than "Castle Doctrine". I mistakenly assumed castle doctrine was the same thing. I stand corrected. I'm learning.
Some Internet sources say Illinois does have stand your ground and others say we don't and others say we have "similar" laws. Does anybody know for sure?

Illinois has no duty to retreat, which is basically the same as having a "stand your ground" law, but without all the other pesky legal jargon to go along with it.

[Bud]

The Illinois right to self defense law allows you to stand your ground and use reasonable and appropriate force, including force that can cause death or great bodily harm" anywhere in the State including your home and outside and 24/7. There is no duty to retreat.

 

However, unlike Texas (for instance) you do not have the right to use deadly force (or force that may cause great bodily harm) once the threat is ended. In Texas, you can still shoot someone running away from you but not here in Illinois.

 

Deadly force can only be used in defense of life or fear of great bodily harm. Once the threat ends, so does the legal use of force.

 

If I surprise a burglar in my house and he tries to run away, i would even open the door for him. If someone tries to grab my wife's purse, fails and then runs away, she can't shoot him as he scampers away.

[Pipedoc]

There is a duty to retreat in Illinois if you were the initial aggressor but that won't apply to most who are generally law abiding.

[gregivq]

The Illinois right to self defense law allows you to stand your ground and use reasonable and appropriate force, including force that can cause death or great bodily harm" anywhere in the State including your home and outside and 24/7. There is no duty to retreat.

 

However, unlike Texas (for instance) you do not have the right to use deadly force (or force that may cause great bodily harm) once the threat is ended. In Texas, you can still shoot someone running away from you but not here in Illinois.

 

Deadly force can only be used in defense of life or fear of great bodily harm. Once the threat ends, so does the legal use of force.

 

If I surprise a burglar in my house and he tries to run away, i would even open the door for him. If someone tries to grab my wife's purse, fails and then runs away, she can't shoot him as he scampers away.

Very good information that should not be new to anyone. Any material object can be easily replaced and no stuff is worth spending time in jail. Life on the other hand is precious and needs to be defended. I don't know what evil makes a simple thief take that extra step to threaten another person's life but this should not go unpunished. 

[AuroraInstructor]

I don't understand why nobody suggested the option of just shooting the gun out of the perp's hand!!! /purple off/

[domin8]

Having been in Rocco's Force on Force courses, both level 1 and level 2, and as an assistant instructor, I can tell you that saying such is not necessary. Most people shoot at what they see, and that's usually the gun. I have taken my share of hits to my hands and forearms, and I've provided many people with the knowledge of what it feels like to get hit there too.

[Occmikey]

Question about something I saw take place today .I stopped today off the highway I was about out of gas at a local gas station.Well im in line waiting to pay for gas and it was pretty busy .I noticed this group of thugs behind some guy who was paying for his stuff .I then noticed one og the kids poking the kid on the head while his buddy's egged him on .Then one actually started touching the kids pockets and laughing .Thank god at that point lazy security decided to do his job and tell kids to leave.My question that could have been me and considering it was 3 on 1 would I have been justified to draw or no.

[tkroenlein]

Based on your account, no. Sounds like step 1 here should have been making some space and a polite invitation for the youths to go spend some quality time with themselves.

[Occmikey]

Based on your account, no. Sounds like step 1 here should have been making some space and a polite invitation for the youths to go spend some quality time with themselves.

Maybe Its the lack of sleep but I'm confused .I think it was pretty clear these kids were gonna mug the guy till security decided to stop texting and work .

[tkroenlein]

At what point was deadly force required to stop the threat? You could be right, maybe they did want his money and were measuring the situation. But, guns come out when it's time to defend life by the use of deadly force. Given the issue was resolved without force, it's hard to make the case that would have been acceptable to draw your gun in the same situation.