When can you legally shoot

[Sigma]

The video of the 911 call on here is disturbing mbut made me wonder when can she legally shoot?

 

At the moment he broke the door down?

Could she have shot through the door while he was trying to break in?

What if he broke the door down she shot and he fell outside on the porch?

 

My mother in law put out some bad tenants a couple of years ago for not paying rent in Calumet City. She went through the proper procedure. Can you believe they came back and did a drive by shooting up her building? Thank God she wasnt home.

 

If she was home and they are outside shooting, can you return fire from your house?

 

When can you legally shoot?

[lockman]

The video of the 911 call on here is disturbing mbut made me wonder when can she legally shoot?

 

At the moment he broke the door down?

Could she have shot through the door while he was trying to break in?

What if he broke the door down she shot and he fell outside on the porch?

 

My mother in law put out some bad tenants a couple of years ago for not paying rent in Calumet City. She went through the proper procedure. Can you believe they came back and did a drive by shooting up her building? Thank God she wasnt home.

 

If she was home and they are outside shooting, can you return fire from your house?

 

When can you legally shoot?

 

In Illinois the law allows the use of deadly force even to prevent a forcible felony (even if your life is not immediately in peril), that being said if you apply any standard higher than that you are probably on good legal ground. If you act on the above only you better be able to show a forcible felony was about to occur. Luckily unlawful entry by force into an occupied dwelling meets that standard easily.

 

INAL - so always read the applicable statutes yourself.

[Silver Guardian]

When can you legally shoot?

 

It's a pretty universal standard, even here in our crappy state. 1 - Imminent fear of death or 2. Stopping a forcible felony.

Both of those standards are met the moment the front door is broken down. Perhaps even before, but it'll help the jury sympathise with you if they can see photos of a busted down door.

[Chiburbian]

Shooting at the door before it opens is a bad idea. (know your target and what is behind it)

 

Once the door opens and you identify your threat, game on...

[Pecker]

Shooting at the door before it opens is a bad idea. (know your target and what is behind it)

 

Once the door opens and you identify your threat, game on...

 

This reminds me of an incident in Colorado. They have their "Make My Day" law.

 

Anyway, some people are having a party. One guy at the party is kicked out, asked to leave. They force him out of the house. He gets out, realizes he has forgot his jacket. The guy comes back, and wants to be let in. The guys in the party ignore him. The guy outside starts yelling, pounding on the door etc. At one point he says, "let me in or I'll $%O& kill you."

 

Well, the owner of the house shoots and kills the guy through the front door. That's right, he blasts through the front door of the home.

 

No charges filed.

[Silver Guardian]

That's beautiful.

[Dr. G]

The shooter in the Califonia incedent is very, very lucky. In order to justify using deadly force your assailent must put you in:

 

1. Immediate AND otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily injury (i.e. crippling injury).

2. Either have a weapon to do damage with, or present a disparity of force ( a very grey legal area), i.e. more than one against one, male against female, the able bodied against the elderly or disabled, etc.

3. Be close enough to carry out the threat. and

4. Manifest intent to do harm either physically or verbally

 

As I understand it this is the nationally recognized criteria for the use of deadly force in all 50 states.

 

If someone is bamming on your door, you cannot legally shoot through it. I am sure all of us at some point have heard the dangerous myth that says "just shoot them through the door, pull them inside and put a butcher knife in their hand."

Take that advise and you will become the "wife" of that 300 lb. jailhouse homosexual named "Bubba" There have been many who took the above foolish advice and ended up being charged with 1st degree murder instead of third degree murder because prosecuters have said that "you conspired to alter evidence by dragging the body and placing a knife in their hand".

 

If they were shooting at her in a drive by she could legally shoot back.

 

In my classes I require all of my students to read "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. I HIGHLY recommend it to ANYONE who has aquired a gun for self defense. His webb site is Policebookshelf.com.

[Bud]

Magic words in Illinois are when in fear of imminent death or great bodily injury to yourself or to another.

 

If someone is making a forced entry into your house, you can shoot through the door and as he enters through a window. I seem to remember tumultous entry isd the language.

 

We do have a castle law in Illinois. Once the threat is over, you can't shoot. So the BG comes in, you challenge him and he flees, you can't nail him. If he continues to stand his ground in your home (or car, place of employment) he becomes a target. If he lives, he can't sue you by state law either.

 

CRIMINAL OFFENSES

(720 ILCS 5/) Criminal Code of 1961.

 

 

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 7 heading)

ARTICLE 7. JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE; EXONERATION

 

 

(720 ILCS 5/7‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 7‑1)

Sec. 7‑1. Use of force in defense of person.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.

( In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7‑4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.

In Texas which does have an even tougher castle law( from "your home is your castle") you can still shoot the evil doer as he flees out the door, runs across the front yeard or even when he is fleeing down the street.

 

Illinois is a "stand your ground" state as opposed to a "duty to retreat" state.

 

In "stand your ground" as long as the threat is being delivered, you can defend yourself. Once the threat ends (the perp flees or ceases his attack) then you can no longer use (any) force to defend your self because it becomes offensive force not defensive force

 

In a "duty to retreat" state, you are required by law to attempt to flee even from your own house in the face of a criminal attack. Before using deadly force, you must retreat as far as possible and even then, you must announce your intention to use deadly force.

 

A simple illustration of the two differnent approaches is in the following scenario:

 

In a duty to retreat state, At 2 AM you hear a burglar breaking in. You leave your bedroom to look and find him in the hallway. You back up and then announce "Halt I have a gun" Halt I have a Gun and finally "halt I have a gun and I will use it", Your back to the wall, you finally fire stopping the attack.

"

In a Castle Doctrine state, you leave your bedroom, trusty shooter in your hand, see the perp in the hallway at which time, "BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!" but you can't then go, "he's still moving!" "BAMBAMDEBAMBAM"

[Xwing]

It is a "reasonable person" standard. Please remember that the jury would likely not be people sympathetic to 2a-rights, and will not be firearms enthusiasts. I would shoot only if I felt I had no other realistic option for defending myself or my loved ones. That would only be after a forced entry, not during one.

[usmc268]

It is a "reasonable person" standard. Please remember that the jury would likely not be people sympathetic to 2a-rights, and will not be firearms enthusiasts. I would shoot only if I felt I had no other realistic option for defending myself or my loved ones. That would only be after a forced entry, not during one.

 

The general rule of thumb quoted by law enforcement (in chicago anyway) is that the offender had a means of physically harming you and did not retreat. In other words...if they had been in possesion of one of your steak knives, bats, rolling pins, or whatever ended up in his hands, with intent, you're pretty much covered. 00 buckshot to the back is a sign of retreat by the way.

[rubble]

It is a "reasonable person" standard. Please remember that the jury would likely not be people sympathetic to 2a-rights, and will not be firearms enthusiasts. I would shoot only if I felt I had no other realistic option for defending myself or my loved ones. That would only be after a forced entry, not during one.

 

I agree. The anti-gunners and their attorneys will look for ways to make you the aggressor and the bad guy the victim of your unnecessary use of force. For the do-gooders its a very fine calculated line to cross.

[Johnnybgood]

I personally would have the wife on the phone to the police explaining someone was trying to break in the house. If they got there in time to stop them great! If not, I am not taking chances with my wifes life or health. I will stop them. Remembering what was taught to me at Darnells. While wife is on phone and call is being recorded I will shout loud enough for perp to hear me ( and hopefully the police recording) STOP! I have a gun and if you enter I WILL USE IT! If they make it inside my steel door again I will protect my wife and myself.

Drive bys. Hmmm. I would love for citizens to start defending their neighborhoods like this. Drive by shooters driving down street shooting at houses/people. Citizens open up from every window/door and turn drive by shooters and car into swiss cheese. This happened a couple times and criminals would get the idea that it is a good idea to stay away from that neighborhood.

[mynameisaric]

Hmmm. I would love for citizens to start defending their neighborhoods like this. Drive by shooters driving down street shooting at houses/people. Citizens open up from every window/door and turn drive by shooters and car into swiss cheese. This happened a couple times and criminals would get the idea that it is a good idea to stay away from that neighborhood.

 

until someone gets the idea to spray bird shot from a 4th or 5th floor window and hits little johnny by accident on his way to school at 2 am

[Johnnybgood]

What is little Johnny doing out at 2am? Where are his parents? What school starts at 2 am? Is his name really Johnny? Is he really young or a midget out to cause mayhem? I wouldn't be using birdshot.

[Sigma]

You hear the bad guy breaking in you go downstairs and see him unarmed but facing you. Now what?

 

Also do you have to announce that you are armed or yell stop before you shoot? Seems like if he has broken into your house you can just shoot without warning.

[Xwing]

You hear the bad guy breaking in you go downstairs and see him unarmed but facing you. Now what?

 

Also do you have to announce that you are armed or yell stop before you shoot? Seems like if he has broken into your house you can just shoot without warning.

 

Every individual situation would be different, IMO. Generally, if you have the option of using less lethal force or no force, you must use that option. If "a resonable person" would feel they had no other option, you could legally shoot. (e.g. is it a 240lb male perp. unarmed but 3 ft. away from an armed 100lb female, then is would likely be considered legal. Or if if's a like-sized intruder 20 ft. away from the victim, the victim would have a much harder time defending in court.) I would think that announcing "stop I'll shoot" would help you in court, but would not always be necessary.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney or offering legal advice; just my opinion.

[Silver Guardian]

You hear the bad guy breaking in you go downstairs and see him unarmed but facing you. Now what?

 

Also do you have to announce that you are armed or yell stop before you shoot? Seems like if he has broken into your house you can just shoot without warning.

 

Only you can decide for yourself what to do.

 

If he's just standing there, I'm gonna have to assume he's insane and therefore a threat because he hasn't run away at the sight of me aiming my shotgun at him. If he's running away, stand down, call the cops. If he moves towards me, well clearly he is out to commit suicide. Who am I to deny him that?

 

There is no circumstance on this blue marble that I can think of where I would ever announce myself. Why give up the element of surprise?

[Howard Roark]

... [elided]..

Illinois is a "stand your ground" state as opposed to a "duty to retreat" state.

 

In "stand your ground" as long as the threat is being delivered, you can defend yourself. Once the threat ends (the perp flees or ceases his attack) then you can no longer use (any) force to defend your self because it becomes offensive force not defensive force

 

In a "duty to retreat" state, you are required by law to attempt to flee even from your own house in the face of a criminal attack. Before using deadly force, you must retreat as far as possible and even then, you must announce your intention to use deadly force.

 

A simple illustration of the two differnent approaches is in the following scenario:

 

In a duty to retreat state, At 2 AM you hear a burglar breaking in. You leave your bedroom to look and find him in the hallway. You back up and then announce "Halt I have a gun" Halt I have a Gun and finally "halt I have a gun and I will use it", Your back to the wall, you finally fire stopping the attack.

"

In a Castle Doctrine state, you leave your bedroom, trusty shooter in your hand, see the perp in the hallway at which time, "BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!" but you can't then go, "he's still moving!" "BAMBAMDEBAMBAM"

 

Thanks! I hate the gun laws in Illinois, but at a moment of such extreme desperation, it seems I have the right to defend my family and myself in my home. We don't have to be Hollywood-famous, New York-rich, or Chicago-politically-connected to protect ourselves. It's a basic human right, isn't it?