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Backdoor Gun Control - Skirting the Legislative Process


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#1 mauserme

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:29 AM

http://www.breitbart...oj-bump-stocks/
 

Backdoor Gun Control: DOJ Proposes Broadening Definition of Machinegun to Include Bump Stocks


by AWR Hawkings

The Department of Justice (DOJ) is proposing a change whereby the definition of machinegun would be broadened to include bump stocks.

This change would subsequently bring bump stocks under the purview of the same National Firearms Act (1934) and Gun Control Act of 1968 regulations that currently govern machinegun sales and possession.

The DOJ has released a draft of the announcement of the proposed definition expansion. It is similar to numerous Democrat gun control proposals that followed the Las Vegas attack inasmuch the new definition would ban numerous firearm accessories in addition to bump stocks. The title of letter conveying the DOJs announcement says it all: Application of the Definition of Machinegun to Bump Fire Stocks and Other Similar Devices.

The draft suggests the meaning of the word machinegun has been in flux for decades, and needs to be revisited: ...

If the DOJ succeeds in redefining machinegun, it portends a scenario in which individuals who own bump stocks will be required to undergo background checks and a registration process to legally retrain the devices. And if the guidelines for machinegun ownership hold true, owners of bump stocks would also have to be fingerprinted, photographed, and pay a $200 tax to the federal government.

Barack Obamas ATF approved bump stocks for sale in 2010, noting that they do not convert semiautomatics into fully automatic weapons. Rather, they recognized bump stocks as an accessory that allowed a gun owner to mimic full auto in short bursts, without actually changing (or converting) the action of the firearm.

The DOJs redefinition push portends an end around the ATFs finding, whereby devices that do not convert semiautomatics into automatics will be considered conversion devices nonetheless.


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#2 rmart

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:48 AM

The draft suggests the meaning of the word machinegun has been in flux for decades, and needs to be revisited: ...

 

Oh joy, this means that the meaning of a word can be adjusted to fit whatever scenario you wish. Won't be long before all semi-autos with detachable magazines will be reclassified as machine guns.


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#3 kevinmcc

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:29 AM

They got to be careful adjusting words.

They could end up making the NFA even more of a violation of the US Constitution, and get entire law struck down.
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#4 OldMarineVet

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:47 AM

Isn't the op's reference consistent with the NRA's 10/05/17 position? If so, I continue to stand with the NRA. All the bump stock legislation I read had loopholes which concerned me more.
============================================
NRA's Wayne LaPierre and Chris Cox Issue Joint Statement
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2017
Fairfax, Va.—The National Rifle Association today issued the following statement:
"In the aftermath of the evil and senseless attack in Las Vegas, the American people are looking for answers as to how future tragedies can be prevented. Unfortunately, the first response from some politicians has been to call for more gun control. Banning guns from law-abiding Americans based on the criminal act of a madman will do nothing to prevent future attacks. This is a fact that has been proven time and again in countries across the world. In Las Vegas, reports indicate that certain devices were used to modify the firearms involved. Despite the fact that the Obama administration approved the sale of bump fire stocks on at least two occasions, the National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law. The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations. In an increasingly dangerous world, the NRA remains focused on our mission: strengthening Americans' Second Amendment freedom to defend themselves, their families and their communities. To that end, on behalf of our five million members across the country, we urge Congress to pass National Right-to-Carry reciprocity, which will allow law-abiding Americans to defend themselves and their families from acts of violence."

Edited by OldMarineVet, 23 December 2017 - 11:48 AM.


#5 mauserme

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:58 AM

IllinoisCarry opposes bump stock bans regardless of other groups' position on the matter.

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On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.


#6 OldMarineVet

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:03 PM

Understood.

#7 tkroenlein

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 01:26 PM

They got to be careful adjusting words.They could end up making the NFA even more of a violation of the US Constitution, and get entire law struck down.


Indeed.

With that said, I fully support all the definition chicanery the alphabet bureaus can muster.

We need another crack at Miller.

#8 markthesignguy

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 03:26 PM

They got to be careful adjusting words.

They could end up making the NFA even more of a violation of the US Constitution, and get entire law struck down.

There would be a period of pain before that,

 

BUT

 

It would serve them right that their mucking about ends up bring down the whole house of cards on their cursed heads.


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#9 chicagoresident

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:34 PM

http://www.breitbart...oj-bump-stocks/ 

Backdoor Gun Control: DOJ Proposes Broadening Definition of Machinegun to Include Bump Stocks

If the DOJ succeeds in redefining machinegun, it portends a scenario in which individuals who own bump stocks will be required to undergo background checks and a registration process to legally retrain the devices. And if the guidelines for machinegun ownership hold true, owners of bump stocks would also have to be fingerprinted, photographed, and pay a $200 tax to the federal government.
Oh please let this be true. You can pay your $200 on your precious bump stocks, I'll be registering autosears by the bagfull. Even if I have to change my state of residence.

But that part would be too good to be true. If reclassified it will be an outright ban because we know the ATF won't open the registry. Farmer v Higgens

What the ATF can and might do is rule that your finger can also be considered a part of the gun if another mechanical device is moving it. They've done this in several other decisions and they don't even legally need to add additional wording.

I also hate to say it they might be right. Think of a hypothetical lever hooked to a bolt of an AR15. After firing the bolt goes back, then upon moving forward that lever pushes your finger into the trigger. How is this different then an autosear?

Another hypothetical, glue a peg to the plastic tab on a bump stock that bumps your finger. How is this now different then an autosear on a recoil operated machine gun? How is your finger different then a mechanical autosear when something mechanical is acting on your finger?

I don't agree with banning the bump stock, but I don't agree with any ruling the ATF makes that puts us farther away from legal machine gun ownership.

Edited by chicagoresident, 23 December 2017 - 08:00 PM.


#10 mauserme

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 08:13 PM

...
What the ATF can and might do is rule that your finger can also be considered a part of the gun if another mechanical device is moving it. They've done this in several other decisions and they don't even legally need to add additional wording.
...


Are you saying ATF has ruled that fingers are gun parts?

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Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. (Ephesians 4:31)

 

On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.


#11 chicagoresident

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 08:21 PM

...What the ATF can and might do is rule that your finger can also be considered a part of the gun if another mechanical device is moving it. They've done this in several other decisions and they don't even legally need to add additional wording....

Are you saying ATF has ruled that fingers are gun parts?

Yes, in the case of the Akins Accelerator
https://www.usconcea...ns-accelerator/

http://jpfo.org/file...-akins-open.htm

I don't know the logic, but by removing the spring part and making it more like a traditional bump fire the ATF let it pass.

Again, this is ATF logic, not normal people logic.

Edited by chicagoresident, 23 December 2017 - 08:22 PM.


#12 mauserme

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 08:39 PM

...What the ATF can and might do is rule that your finger can also be considered a part of the gun if another mechanical device is moving it. They've done this in several other decisions and they don't even legally need to add additional wording....

Are you saying ATF has ruled that fingers are gun parts?


Yes, in the case of the Akins Accelerator
https://www.usconcea...ns-accelerator/

http://jpfo.org/file...-akins-open.htm

I don't know the logic, but by removing the spring part and making it more like a traditional bump fire the ATF let it pass.

Again, this is ATF logic, not normal people logic.


Bump fire stocks may follow that same path, of course, but I think it's a stretch to say they ruled that anyone's anatomy becomes a gun part.

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Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. (Ephesians 4:31)

 

On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.


#13 chicagoresident

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:22 PM

There's also this catchall

The frame or receiver of any such weapon
Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or
Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.


If I bent the tab of a slidefire stock inwards that would be a machine gun.

There's a lot of pressure to essentially do something the ATF has historically done all the time, rerule an already made decision. They've structured their rules to be able to do it and the courts rarely overturn their decisions.

I mean this is the ATF that will send you to federal prison if you had an unregistered full auto lower on a black powder musket AR upper. That's a machine gun, without even being capable of full auto fire, or even questionably being a firearm at all.

Also, even hard and fast rules also don't always apply.

Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger


Except volley guns are fully legal and simultaneously fire more then one shot with a single pull of the trigger. Yet 2 or 3 round burst is illegal.

Edited by chicagoresident, 23 December 2017 - 09:41 PM.


#14 mauserme

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:05 PM

There's also this catchall

The frame or receiver of any such weapon
Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or
Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.


If I bent the tab of a slidefire stock inwards that would be a machine gun.

There's a lot of pressure to essentially do something the ATF has historically done all the time, rerule an already made decision. They've structured their rules to be able to do it and the courts rarely overturn their decisions.

I mean this is the ATF that will send you to federal prison if you had an unregistered full auto lower on a black powder musket AR upper. That's a machine gun, without even being capable of full auto fire, or even questionably being a firearm at all.

Also, even hard and fast rules also don't always apply.

Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger


Except volley guns are fully legal and simultaneously fire more then one shot with a single pull of the trigger. Yet 2 or 3 round burst is illegal.


Indeed, the capriciousness of a bureaucracy is one of the very reasons the legislative process must not be circumvented.

You illustrate that point well.

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Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. (Ephesians 4:31)

 

On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.


#15 357

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 01:00 PM

So anytime a criminal misuses a firearm or accessory they will be made illegal and everyone will lose their right to have them? Or have to turn in their legally bought property or have them confiscated and be turned into a felon and have to pay punitive taxes and be registered like a sex offender for a Constitutional right and something they bought legally. That's essentially what is happening and who would have thought Jeff Sessions would try to do this. What about instead of blaming bump stocks, have an investigation into Stephen Paddock and what happened in Las Vegas because everyone is saying things don't add up and strangely few details and no video footage has been released. The 1st amendment is under attack too by the same people and there's been mass censorship of the internet and search results. What about an investigation into that.

This country is slowly turning into a tyranny if the constitution and American values and the rule of law keep getting ignored and subverted. Where do they get this idea that they can outlaw items that are protected by the constitution for everyone who is law abiding and innocent because of the actions of criminals? This is not the Soviet Union to carry out collective punishment. What is America and the American justice system and the Constitution turning into? Looks tyrannical, and I have lived under a tyrannical government before and is looking familiar.

It's a slippery slope which will lead to semi automatic rifles be labeled machine guns and made illegal. They are already deceitfully called assault weapons which are machine guns without anyone opposing this and educating the public and the lie having been repeated by the so many times has become the truth and some courts now say they can be banned. Even though "assault weapon" was coined by Hitler for propaganda for an automatic weapon and there is no such thing as an assault weapon but Hitler's fantasy and is being used as propaganda now too.

https://www.theatlan...t-rifle/489428/

This is a conspiracy by anti 2nd amendment people who I believe should be called domestic enemies of the US Constitution and the controlled media who have been trying for years to outlaw semi automatic rifles made for civilians and turn them to machine guns by calling them assault weapons and weapons of war. That's what these people do every time criminals misuse them and they use the actions of criminals as an excuse to advance their agenda and take away the rights from law abiding people. Is hard to tell, is this Eric Holder's DOJ? Even Eric Holder and Obama DOJ didn't do something like this. Why is Sesions bowing down to these people and trying to please them. Wasn't he pro 2nd amendment and appointed to uphold it and the constitution. Trump should replace him before he does any more damage.

I was excited and had high hopes for him but he has been a failure and turned into a RINO and politically correct and not accomplished anything except attack people's 2nd amendment rights. Didn't BATFE and DOJ under Eric Holder already review and rule that bump stocks are legal and not machine guns in 2010. So are they gonna say that after 7 years they changed their minds and made a mistake and need to review them again because of political pressure and to be politically correct? Is their reasoning same as anti 2nd amendment people that bump stocks and guns are to blame (gun violence) and we must do something and ban them or people will carry out future mass shootings because they own bump stocks? Are they gonna persecute people for suspicion and thought crimes next and guilty until proven innocent.

After 7 years and hundreds of thousands maybe millions of people believing the BATFE and their review and being told in writing they were legal and bought them now they're being told that now they have machine guns which are illegal and needs to be another review. This is embarrassing, are they serious, how many times are they gonna flip-flop and review them. Or because some people didn't like the result of the first review and they get to review again to get the desired result. Way to loose all credibility by tricking law abiding people and turn them into criminals for having broken no laws after what a criminal did. How is this ethical and Constitutional? Are they gonna punish the law abiding again and what other gun or accessory are they gonna blame and ban when there's another mass shooting.
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#16 chicagoresident

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 10:13 PM

So anytime a criminal misuses a firearm or accessory they will be made illegal and everyone will lose their right to have them?

Welcome to the history of America's weakening of the 2nd ammendment. I can count on one hand prohibition era shootings/murders that were committed with fully automatic weapons. But the media intentionally gave these the biggest press which eventually led to the National Firearm act.

Even before that most accounts of "the wild west" had very little shootings. One of the reason the shootout at the OK Corral was so legendary is because an event like this had never happened and never happened afterwards.

The only legitimate challenge to the NFA was https://en.m.wikiped...tates_v._Miller which ruled the act constitutional because Miller was a bank robber on the run and wasn't about to show up in court. Again, banks being robbed with NFA weapons was a rarity.

Kennedy assassination with a mail-order bolt action rifle back when you could literally legally order anti aircraft guns from the backs of magazines prompted the gun control act of 1968.

Then there was CointelPro that linked guns with left wing radicals all through the 70s that made owning a gun so dangerous they actually had to create the firearm owners protection act of 1984. Because gun owners were having their doors kicked in left and right.

The Hughes Ammendment of the 1984 firearm owners protection act was passed without an actual tragedy. The irony is this act actually really did protect the 2nd ammendment other then the 11th hour weaseling that closed the NFA registry to machine guns.

And before bumpstocks is was all about the hellfire triggers. A shooting in California and David Karesh and the Branch Davidians, along with some other notable shootings prompted the assault weapon ban.

And when we still had school shootings before and after the assault weapon ban they've worked hard to pass further restrictions.

And Vegas put bump stocks as the new savuer de jour.

They say let no tragedy go unexploited, we say not one inch.

And to your Jeff Sessions comment:

If you are a law abiding citizen the attorney general is not your friend, even if it is a favorable administration and your friends are cops. The attorney general is the top cop, and law enforcement's job is to get their man at all costs, with your civil liberties as collateral damage. And on a national level your cop buddies business cards aren't gonna get you outta jail. This is why everyone needs to pay attention to reactionary laws, even if like most people they don't like criminals. Because law enforcement will always use examples of criminality to explain why you as a law abiding citizen doesn't deserve basic rights.

Beware of any civil rights organization that is pro law enforcement...

Edited by chicagoresident, 26 December 2017 - 08:45 AM.





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