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#1 Jeffrey

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 05:33 AM

Here comes a new push for more training and likely more restrictions. Multiple stories at the top of the list on the Libunes site:

http://www.chicagotr...0523-story.html

http://www.chicagotr...0523-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-concealed-carry-shooting-counseling-20180523-story.html

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Edited by Jeffrey, 15 June 2018 - 05:36 AM.

...and justice for all

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#2 richp

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 06:09 AM

Hi,

Can't get behind the paywall. How about a summary, if you have the time.

Thanks.

Rich phillips

#3 mic6010

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:25 AM

Here's your summary....

 

Link 1 - Pity party for the criminal that tried to run over a firefighter with his own car and got shot dead.   The point they are trying to make is we should be ashamed of ourselves for defending ourselves, especially if the perpetrator is part of a protected class of peoples. Kinda like white guilt mixed with you're a bad, bad man type of attitude. Really weird.

 

Link 2 -  An ex cop talks about his lifelong "trauma" that he has to live with from having to shoot a threat. Sounds more like a mental midget that obviously should have never held a gun, let alone had to use it to defend human life.   I think the point of this one was that shooting people is scary and we should also be ashamed of ourselves for the rest of our lives after we do it, because we are bad people for using a gun for self defense. And also that stopping a threat breaks CCL holders mentally and we will need mandatory therapy for the rest of our lives just like this cop guy. 

 

Link -3  And then last but not least, everyone's favorite anti gun/ anti concealed carry argument brought back to life again.... The old "Concealed Carry makes everyone less safe"

or the more IL specific version of that tag line if you prefer  "The streets are gonna be full of blood if everyone has a CCL in IL"     

 

Anti gunners pointing out a few anecdotal stories of people with CCLs committing crimes. Ignoring the rest of the mountain of anecdotal stories of people that used their CCL to stop crimes. Ignoring other easily attainable statistics like the fact that people with CCLs commit crimes at rates far less than the general population.
 

They are trying to assert this broad ranging anti concealed carry dogma that can't be proven because the statistics don't exist. And really probably can't even be compiled at all. I mean how do you compile statistics on things like the amount of times a gun has been pulled by a CCL holder to stop a threat but not actually fired ?  Most of those instances will never get reported to any agency to be recorded.

 

I believe that's what's called a logical fallacy.  When you just KNOW something is the truth and you have this firmly held dogma about something but you just can't prove it with actual statistics or evidence to back up your claims.

I think we just used to call that bull&#$%.  Now its got a fancy name and everything.   

 

The article basically reads and sounds like a paid for anti gun, anti concealed carry hit piece. Sponsored by big money anti gun groups I'm sure.

Wouldn't expect anything less from the Trib.


Edited by mic6010, 15 June 2018 - 07:32 AM.

"Living in Chicago, it used to be, 'don't go out at night,' or 'be more careful at night'. Now it's turned into a place where it doesn't matter if it's day or night."  - John Hendricks.


#4 Xwing

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:33 AM

I read the articles.  They were quite biased, and tried to "lead you by the nose" by reporting half-truths and opinions as facts.  It was as biased as usual for the Libune...  Basically they want to force 40 hours training (never mind that the 16 required now is the most of any state) and want to add all kinds of other restrictions (including mandatory counseling)...


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#5 Jeffrey

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:37 AM

Thanks for the summary Mic.


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#6 richp

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:49 AM

Hi,

Much appreciated.

Rich

#7 InterestedBystander

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:56 AM

Hi,
Can't get behind the paywall. How about a summary, if you have the time.
Thanks.
Rich phillips

Try clearing Tribune cookies or open using private option in your browser.
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#8 TRJ

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 11:18 AM

I'll do 40 hours, but what do I get? Reciprocity? No GFZ signs? Open Carry? Anything? No? Well stuff it then.



#9 richp

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 11:19 AM

Hi bystander,

Thanks, it worked well.

Rich

#10 Euler

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 01:01 PM

Here comes a new push for more training and likely more restrictions. Multiple stories at the top of the list on the Libunes site:


Today is March for Our Lives day in the Chicago area. That's probably why the Trib published a bunch of stories like this at once.

Link -3 And then last but not least, everyone's favorite anti gun/ anti concealed carry argument brought back to life again.... The old "Concealed Carry makes everyone less safe" or the more IL specific version of that tag line if you prefer "The streets are gonna be full of blood if everyone has a CCL in IL"


To extend the summary, two Chicago cops arrested someone, cuffed him, and put him in the back of their patrol car. When they got in the car themselves, he drew his concealed firearm and shot at them, wounding one. The cops blamed the existence of concealed carry for their predicament.

Personally, I'd blame their lack of following proper arrest and detainment procedures. But I'm not a cop, so it's easy to believe there are procedural intricacies beyond my understanding. Maybe Chicago allows cops to skip the step where they search a detainee/arrestee for weapons. Or maybe it's just easier to ban all guns, so cops can be safe.

Edited by Euler, 15 June 2018 - 01:16 PM.


#11 markthesignguy

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:15 PM

There also is the push for national level reciprocity.


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#12 Gamma

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 11:26 PM

 

Here comes a new push for more training and likely more restrictions. Multiple stories at the top of the list on the Libunes site:


Today is March for Our Lives day in the Chicago area. That's probably why the Trib published a bunch of stories like this at once.

Link -3 And then last but not least, everyone's favorite anti gun/ anti concealed carry argument brought back to life again.... The old "Concealed Carry makes everyone less safe" or the more IL specific version of that tag line if you prefer "The streets are gonna be full of blood if everyone has a CCL in IL"


To extend the summary, two Chicago cops arrested someone, cuffed him, and put him in the back of their patrol car. When they got in the car themselves, he drew his concealed firearm and shot at them, wounding one. The cops blamed the existence of concealed carry for their predicament.

Personally, I'd blame their lack of following proper arrest and detainment procedures. But I'm not a cop, so it's easy to believe there are procedural intricacies beyond my understanding. Maybe Chicago allows cops to skip the step where they search a detainee/arrestee for weapons. Or maybe it's just easier to ban all guns, so cops can be safe.

 

And said person who got arrested and shot at the police was a concealed carry licensee?!?


Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#13 Euler

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 12:58 AM

Link -3 And then last but not least, everyone's favorite anti gun/ anti concealed carry argument brought back to life again.... The old "Concealed Carry makes everyone less safe" or the more IL specific version of that tag line if you prefer "The streets are gonna be full of blood if everyone has a CCL in IL"


To extend the summary, two Chicago cops arrested someone, cuffed him, and put him in the back of their patrol car. When they got in the car themselves, he drew his concealed firearm and shot at them, wounding one. The cops blamed the existence of concealed carry for their predicament.

Personally, I'd blame their lack of following proper arrest and detainment procedures. But I'm not a cop, so it's easy to believe there are procedural intricacies beyond my understanding. Maybe Chicago allows cops to skip the step where they search a detainee/arrestee for weapons. Or maybe it's just easier to ban all guns, so cops can be safe.

And said person who got arrested and shot at the police was a concealed carry licensee?!?


The article doesn't say whether he had a license. It just said that he had a concealed handgun, that shooting people is bad, and that concealed carriers should be required to get psychological counseling after a self-defense incident, because the cop that was shot really needed it and because Rwanda.

As an English composition, it has many punctuation errors. It has a valid point to make. (Does anyone really think shooting people is good?) And it connects some dots bizarrely.

#14 mic6010

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 07:36 AM

 

 

Here comes a new push for more training and likely more restrictions. Multiple stories at the top of the list on the Libunes site:


Today is March for Our Lives day in the Chicago area. That's probably why the Trib published a bunch of stories like this at once
To extend the summary, two Chicago cops arrested someone, cuffed him, and put him in the back of their patrol car. When they got in the car themselves, he drew his concealed firearm and shot at them, wounding one. The cops blamed the existence of concealed carry for their predicament.

Personally, I'd blame their lack of following proper arrest and detainment procedures. But I'm not a cop, so it's easy to believe there are procedural intricacies beyond my understanding. Maybe Chicago allows cops to skip the step where they search a detainee/arrestee for weapons. Or maybe it's just easier to ban all guns, so cops can be safe.

 

And said person who got arrested and shot at the police was a concealed carry licensee?!?

 

No, there's zero correlation between that incident and people who are legally licensed to concealed carry.  And even if he was a licensed person, how can you say it was anything more than an isolated incident that's not indicative at all of CCL holders ? Its a ridiculous stretch. Those articles make no valid points at all about concealed carry. They are just trying to muddy the waters with anecdotal stories and feels hoping some naive fool will take their words as truth. I think we are all far to inoculated with reality to buy into that garbage.

 

And as it was pointed out, the failure there was a police officer sucking at their job and not searching someone they detained. Then they got shot for it. Then they cried about it. And now they have long term issues over it ? My gooodness.  And then these are the mental midgets we need to be taking advice from ? No thanks.


Edited by mic6010, 16 June 2018 - 07:38 AM.

"Living in Chicago, it used to be, 'don't go out at night,' or 'be more careful at night'. Now it's turned into a place where it doesn't matter if it's day or night."  - John Hendricks.


#15 Bushy223

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 09:34 AM

Not that this is a perfect source, but I read Second City Cop (SCC blog) every day and I don’t recall any writing or notices that suggest the CPD story is true. I can’t believe it could have happened and not been a topic of discussion.

I could be wrong and have an open mind, but few coppers would not have searched an arrestee or detainee, regardless of written procedures.

YMMV

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 09:56 AM

I'll do 40 hours, but what do I get? Reciprocity? No GFZ signs? Open Carry? Anything? No? Well stuff it then.

Come on you are expecting too much from IL where legal gun ownership is frowned upon. If you are a criminal then the our politicians support your right to carry a gun and terrorize the public. Defend yourself and you are totally screwed. This is why we need term limits so that a**holes like Madigan cannot screw us again and again. 


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#17 Neumann

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 10:18 PM

I read the Tribune article this afternoon, which included part of page one and nearly all of pages 12 and 13. The Trip cited a handful of cases which, IMO, were notable training failures regarding the use of lethal force for self defense. Shooting over your shoulder while running from a car jacker! Honestly!

 

Supposedly there have been 4200 DGU incidents reported to the Police since 2013, and only a few prosecutions. Unfortunately, according to Gary Kleck, John Lott and a recent report by the CDC, the vast majority of DGU incidents go unreported. At the first sign of armed resistance, the bad guy runs away. No shots fired, no injuries, no report. Statistically, considering roughly 2% of Chicagoans with CCL and 30,000 felony assaults (robbery, etc), one would expect 600 DGU incidents. Instead we read about less than a dozen per year.

 

http://www.thetrutha...y-hid-the-data/

 

I'm sure there are CCL holders out there who consider it a hunting license. At least one in my class voiced as much. There's a wide gap between talking and doing. Another undocumented possibility is that once you get used to traveling while armed (lose the feeling that everybody is watching you), you stop looking like a victim. My limited experience seems to indicate that potential assailants try to size you up, and are conscious of body language to the extreme. That's a complete "nothing burger" as far as the police (and public) are concerned, but gets the job done without threats or violence.



#18 BigJim

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:46 AM

Requiring CCL holders to get psychological counseling after a DGU use makes perfect sense to me.  It will enable the counselor to declare the CCL holder a danger to himself resulting in the CCL holder loosing his FOID, FCCL and guns.  Talk about a backdoor to confiscation with the best part being the CCL holder brought it on himself by using his CCL.


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#19 markthesignguy

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:15 AM

I propose that JOURNALISTS be licensed, and that ALL their work be subject to review, looking for inaccurate facts, outright lies, opinions not labeled as such, pushing an agenda, misleading statements and other journalistic sins. Fines could apply - as well as revocation of the license after too many minor infractions or a major infraction.


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#20 THE KING

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:24 AM

I propose that JOURNALISTS be licensed, and that ALL their work be subject to review, looking for inaccurate facts, outright lies, opinions not labeled as such, pushing an agenda, misleading statements and other journalistic sins. Fines could apply - as well as revocation of the license after too many minor infractions or a major infraction.


I think this is a great idea.

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#21 cybermgk

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:37 AM

I propose that JOURNALISTS be licensed, and that ALL their work be subject to review, looking for inaccurate facts, outright lies, opinions not labeled as such, pushing an agenda, misleading statements and other journalistic sins. Fines could apply - as well as revocation of the license after too many minor infractions or a major infraction.

Got my vote.  Make fines commensurate to the damage done to people that are subjects of their hit pieces.


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#22 soylentgreen

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 11:56 AM

It's amazing what people think is critical/high priority in a state that's literally crumbling around us. Are concealed carriers a big problem in this state? Something that needs immediate attention? I can think of a lot of other things that are way more important, but not as sexy.

Of course, you could argue that this is just a smokescreen. If we vilify concealed carriers maybe we can deflect from where the real evil is...all the politicians who are literally destroying this state.



#23 JTHunter

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 01:49 PM

first part of Link #1

It took days to figure out where all the bullets flew when a man licensed to carry a gun exchanged shots with a masked 16-year-old boy and killed him on a busy street in Oak Park last year.

Investigators counted about a dozen shell casings outside a bank on Madison Street, according to police reports. They dug bullets from the man’s Buick Regal.

The teen was the only person hit that sunny spring morning as bystanders scattered inside cars and crouched behind a telephone pole. One of the bullets traveled across the street into an office building. It apparently came from one of the shots the man fired over his shoulder as he ran away.

The man, who worked for the Chicago Park District, was released within hours after a prosecutor determined over the phone he had fired in self-defense. Nothing was said about him randomly shooting behind him, even though an investigator later questioned the action. And nothing was reported to the Illinois State Police, even though they oversee the training and licensing of concealed carry holders.

 

The state police know nothing about the nearly 40 shootings by people with concealed carry licenses since Illinois became the last state to allow them four years ago.

A Tribune review found that most of the shootings have been in public places in the Chicago area, and half the cases have involved concealed carry holders firing to defend themselves or someone else from robbers. At least 11 people have been killed, including a man with a license who tried to fend off carjackers on the West Side.

first part of Link #2

Janique Walker knows the cost of a split second.

Her younger brother, 17-year-old Charles Macklin, was killed while trying to steal a Jeep from a Chicago fire lieutenant on the West Side last August. The lieutenant had left the Jeep running, and Macklin jumped behind the wheel.

The lieutenant ran in front of the Jeep and shouted, “Get out,” according to a police report. When Macklin began pulling away, the lieutenant drew his gun and fired through the open driver’s side window, hitting the teen in the chest.

Macklin’s last words were, “Sorry, bro,” according to the police report. The teen died on the pavement. He did not have a gun on him.

 

The lieutenant had a concealed carry license. He was not charged and he was not disciplined by the department, according to spokesman Larry Langford.

“That was investigated by us, and we found no violation of any rules,” Langford said. “The police didn’t arrest, the state’s attorney found no reason to charge. There was no wrongdoing as far as the Fire Department is concerned.”

 

How about you?  Do any of you have a problem with the bold part?  The reason I ask is that it appears that the Lt. was NOT in immediate danger of being run over as he was to the side of the jeep.  "Justified?"  I don't know but my inclination is "No".

 

first part of Link #3

The first shot hit the roof of Brian Warner’s police car, the next slammed into his shoulder.

Warner pumped the brakes hard as his partner bailed from the car. Together, they fired nine shots at the panhandler in the backseat who was holding a gun in his cuffed hands. They hit him five times and killed him.

Warner quit the Chicago Police force not long after the shooting on the North Side in 2011, and says it took a long time to come to grips with what he had done, even though the department said he had done nothing wrong.

“I’m a devout Catholic and it helped me to understand that I’m not a murderer,” Warner said. “I killed to save my life and my partner’s life.”

 

He believes civilians licensed to carry guns should be directed to the same kind of counseling that helped him — something that is not offered under Illinois’ concealed carry law.

“Whether you’re in law enforcement or a private citizen, you take a life, you’re going to go through something,” Warner said. “We don’t do enough to combat that.”


Edited by JTHunter, 20 June 2018 - 01:58 PM.

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#24 markthesignguy

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 02:36 PM

How about you? Do any of you have a problem with the bold part? The reason I ask is that it appears that the Lt. was NOT in immediate danger of being run over as he was to the side of the jeep. "Justified?" I don't know but my inclination is "No".




In the city, parallel parking is the norm. That means that the car HAS
to move to the side to exit a spot.
Anybody standing from the middle of the vehicle forward is in danger of
being struck by the vehicle. That constitutes deadly force.
 
And there is  * NO * law that says that you cannot stand your ground
in the space where your commandeered car has to transit in order to be stolen.
The thief then has the decision of whether it is wise to present deadly force
(try to run you over) to steal the car or abandon the attempt.

Edited by markthesignguy, 20 June 2018 - 02:39 PM.

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#25 Tango7

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 12:44 PM

Saw that - along with the old "police are required to have 40 hours of training" and some cops - who can carry in places where CCW holders cannot - supporting it.

Ignoring the difference in carrying a gun as a CCW and carrying a gun as an agent of the state. 

And of course, no similar demand of the thousands of gang bangers and drug dealers who are responsible for 99.9999% of the criminal homicides, or the felons like the one whose sister feels should be allowed to commit grand theft auto with impunity.


You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#26 vito

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 12:16 PM

The articles were just more anti gun nonsense. Asking for more mandatory training is just a way of making the licensing process more difficult and costly. The anti gunners in Chicago have never, and will likely never stop trying to reduce if not eliminate all gun rights in this state. I would like to see a minority member bring a lawsuit against the state saying that the current training and license cost to be racist in its impact upon poor black people. For me, the cost was not a barrier. But for many people the cost of the license application and the 16 hours of training is enough of an impediment to stop them from even trying. 


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#27 JTHunter

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 07:27 PM

The articles were just more anti gun nonsense. Asking for more mandatory training is just a way of making the licensing process more difficult and costly. The anti gunners in Chicago have never, and will likely never stop trying to reduce if not eliminate all gun rights in this state. I would like to see a minority member bring a lawsuit against the state saying that the current training and license cost to be racist in its impact upon poor black people. For me, the cost was not a barrier. But for many people the cost of the license application and the 16 hours of training is enough of an impediment to stop them from even trying. 

 

It isn't just "the black poor" that find the costs excessive !!


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#28 chislinger

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Posted 23 June 2018 - 07:03 AM

I canceled my Tribune subscription. Not because of articles like this, that's expected. I canceled because they turned off their comment section, so now the public can't even give their opinions on articles like this and set the record straight. I told the rep on the phone (you can cancel only by phone) that I did not appreciate being lectured to with no opportunity to respond publicly.
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#29 Woodrift

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 10:44 AM

first part of Link #2

Janique Walker knows the cost of a split second.
Her younger brother, 17-year-old Charles Macklin, was killed while trying to steal a Jeep from a Chicago fire lieutenant on the West Side last August. The lieutenant had left the Jeep running, and Macklin jumped behind the wheel.
The lieutenant ran in front of the Jeep and shouted, Get out, according to a police report. When Macklin began pulling away, the lieutenant drew his gun and fired through the open drivers side window, hitting the teen in the chest.
Macklins last words were, Sorry, bro, according to the police report. The teen died on the pavement. He did not have a gun on him.
 
The lieutenant had a concealed carry license. He was not charged and he was not disciplined by the department, according to spokesman Larry Langford.
That was investigated by us, and we found no violation of any rules, Langford said. The police didnt arrest, the states attorney found no reason to charge. There was no wrongdoing as far as the Fire Department is concerned.

 
How about you?  Do any of you have a problem with the bold part?  The reason I ask is that it appears that the Lt. was NOT in immediate danger of being run over as he was to the side of the jeep.  "Justified?"  I don't know but my inclination is "No".
 
I would suspect the article is missing information that the police and the state's attorney had to not charge the lieutenant with anything. Although IL statues do allow you to use deadly force to defend property as long as it's a forcible felony. In this case, robbery.

That being said, in my opinion, it should only be used to defend life. I'd much rather pay my deductible and get a new car than deal with a lawyer bill.

#30 mkhalil61

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 08:01 AM

I'll do 40 hours, but what do I get? Reciprocity? No GFZ signs? Open Carry? Anything? No? Well stuff it then.

 

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