richp Posted July 27, 2020 at 03:20 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 03:20 PM These emerging incidents of firearms actually being used in connection with protests sets us up for something seriously bad. They will be used as a pretext for trying to enact restrictions far beyond those in place now. Add to that the growth of the black firearms movement. You will see a lot of politicians suddenly interested -- along the lines of the Black Panther panic in California years ago, and what old man Daley did in the 60s after the riots -- in restrictions that will diminish the ability of minorities to exercise their 2A rights. This also will be a test of how principled the current 2A community is -- which heretofore has been more closely aligned with right/conservative groups and philosophies. Gonna be interesting... Rich Phillips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted July 27, 2020 at 03:50 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 03:50 PM I was thinking the same. Sure is a Powderkeg situation that very well could blow up, entirely to our detriment. Adding and removing Rights are hard to do, and rightfully so, but not impossible. I have Zero doubt that given the opportunity, the vast majority of Democrats would do away with the 2nd amendment and instead create local and state carve outs for cronies on their side of the fence. That was pretty much the Daley Doctrine, with alderman and the other privileged who were only allowed to legally own handguns all those years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRApistol Posted July 27, 2020 at 04:17 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 04:17 PM I don't know, but I think you guys may be barking up the wrong tree. For some reason there is a feeling that ALL Dems are anti-gun. From my classes nothing could be farther from the truth. My very first concealed carry class was for a family of long time Democrats. Since then I have trained a LOT of Democrats for concealed carry. From where I come from it looks like the Big City Dems are anti-gun and the country Dems are Pro-gun. This could be what turns more of City Dems to pro gun. While I prepare for doom and gloom, I have faith in my fellow humans. I see 2A people not Democrats or Republicans. Like Rich says:Gonna be interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted July 27, 2020 at 04:29 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 04:29 PM Not one of these shootings have been legal AFAIK. I understand that doesn't make a difference to the dem pol but to the public it should. And since some of these groups now carrying are considered a "black" group, maybe the dems should come up with more laws that could prohibit a new owner and former Mayor Daley should be in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted July 27, 2020 at 04:43 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 04:43 PM I don't know, but I think you guys may be barking up the wrong tree. For some reason there is a feeling that ALL Dems are anti-gun. From my classes nothing could be farther from the truth. My very first concealed carry class was for a family of long time Democrats. Since then I have trained a LOT of Democrats for concealed carry. From where I come from it looks like the Big City Dems are anti-gun and the country Dems are Pro-gun. This could be what turns more of City Dems to pro gun. While I prepare for doom and gloom, I have faith in my fellow humans. I see 2A people not Democrats or Republicans. Like Rich says:Gonna be interesting... NO, absolutely the right tree. The problem is, Democrats don't believe in the 2nd Amendment for ALL People, as do the Conservatives. The Democrats believe in Gun Rights for those of the SAME political viewpoint. As such, the 2nd Amendment is a problem that prevents them from discriminating who is anointed gun ownership rights to only those they feel are worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richp Posted July 27, 2020 at 05:24 PM Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 05:24 PM Hi mrmagloo, I think a slight modification of your position would keep you and I in the same ballpark. Not all Democrat politicians are that way; you need to look no farther than downstate to see that. To the degree they can operate out of Madigan's shadow, some of the representatives down there seem to be on our side. And certainly not all Democratic citizens are anti-2A either, as I think we would find from the membership here. But more broadly, the country is orienting more and more away from rural life, and toward big cities and their immediate suburbs. (Which is to say, increasingly uninformed/poorly informed/misinformed about the Second Amendment and what firearm ownership really means, because for many it's not a safe, normal part of urban life.) This demographic shift is really problematic. Here in Illinois, for instance,while Chicago is predictably and unalterably Democratic, DuPage and Kane counties used to be reliably Republican. But these two counties now are electing officials like Foster and Underwood, much to the distress of folks like me. If to this demographic shift you add the relentlessly left inclination of the media, it's hard to envision politicians across the board doing much for us, or resisting the kinds of pressures I alluded to in my original post. Guns will be demonized further because of these incidents. Further allusions to the wild west will be tossed out. Ugly radical right tie-ins to the NRA will be made -- even though not valid. FWIW. Rich Phillips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted July 27, 2020 at 05:58 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 05:58 PM Hi mrmagloo, I think a slight modification of your position would keep you and I in the same ballpark. Not all Democrat politicians are that way; you need to look no farther than downstate to see that. To the degree they can operate out of Madigan's shadow, some of the representatives down there seem to be on our side. And certainly not all Democratic citizens are anti-2A either, as I think we would find from the membership here. But more broadly, the country is orienting more and more away from rural life, and toward big cities and their immediate suburbs. (Which is to say, increasingly uninformed/poorly informed/misinformed about the Second Amendment and what firearm ownership really means, because for many it's not a safe, normal part of urban life.) This demographic shift is really problematic. Here in Illinois, for instance,while Chicago is predictably and unalterably Democratic, DuPage and Kane counties used to be reliably Republican. But these two counties now are electing officials like Foster and Underwood, much to the distress of folks like me. If to this demographic shift you add the relentlessly left inclination of the media, it's hard to envision politicians across the board doing much for us, or resisting the kinds of pressures I alluded to in my original post. Guns will be demonized further because of these incidents. Further allusions to the wild west will be tossed out. Ugly radical right tie-ins to the NRA will be made -- even though not valid. FWIW. Rich Phillips Rich, I agree that not all Democrats are that way, but clearly, a drastically higher proportion of Democrats are trying to chip away at our 2A rights than Conservative politicians. After all, it's not the GOP leading these anti 2A calls, right? That said, we all can pretty easily cite a small number of spineless, back stabbing GOP politicians that have crossed us from time to time as well, but again, the battle we are facing is clearly coming from those to the left. I don't have to tell you this? The fact is, I have ZERO doubt that there are tons of Democrats buying guns, taking lessons - probably now more than ever, but that doesn't change the fundamental mindset. There is a very high proportion of Democrats that do NOT believe in the 2A, is a fundamental, universal right for every US citizen. They feel they should have the ability to carve the right to suit their political beliefs, absolutely meaning discriminating the right, and the 2A is all that is preventing this. Yes, the Urban crawl is a scary thing. I live in a collar county that for years was solid Republican. Not anymore, and it's a huge problem, Imho. When you hear about Democrats making headway in rural counties, that's a scary situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybermgk Posted July 27, 2020 at 06:14 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 06:14 PM I think Politicians in Office currently, as well as those certain big money anti gun backers will promote, will try to use these events to go after: Open CarryCastle Doctrines among others. What I HOPE is that it has opened some voters eyes as well. The above politicians, and those before now have gotten people to vote for them because said voters didn't know any better. But now, 10s of millions of voters, who likely fell in that category, now know those politicians were lying to them, or at best not telling but a portion of the truth. HOPEFULLY that means they don't get fooled by their siren song again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 27, 2020 at 07:50 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 07:50 PM With news that a lot of gun buyers during the last few months are first time purchases, I hope that means they have awoke to the harsh realities of being their own first defense and what certain politicians will do to their rights if elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim123 Posted July 27, 2020 at 08:20 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 08:20 PM I'm afraid that all the people who shouldn't own guns are being talked into buying them using Trump money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted July 27, 2020 at 10:44 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 10:44 PM The problem is, even those Democrats that I specifically went out of my way to focus on taking out to the range, and teaching them about firearms, even helping with their first purchase, the issue is, guns just are not a political priority to any of these guys. They think there are far, far more important topics, mostly Abortion/Murder rights, Universal Healthcare, LGBTQ, etc, etc. Worse they REALLY, REALLY think their leaders are not targeting to take THEIR guns. Just those their leaders think shouldn't have guns. And they don't see that as a problem at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Fife Posted July 27, 2020 at 11:30 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 11:30 PM Pretty sure each and every one of those "country Dems" will be casting their vote for Confiscatin' Joe later this year. Prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagSlap Posted July 27, 2020 at 11:30 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 11:30 PM The problem is, even those Democrats that I specifically went out of my way to focus on taking out to the range, and teaching them about firearms, even helping with their first purchase, the issue is, guns just are not a political priority to any of these guys. They think there are far, far more important topics, mostly Abortion/Murder rights, Universal Healthcare, LGBTQ, etc, etc. Worse they REALLY, REALLY think their leaders are not targeting to take THEIR guns. Just those their leaders think shouldn't have guns. And they don't see that as a problem at all. Well...that tells ya what you need to know about the liberal mindset.....(I'll withhold any other 'qualifiers')For me and not for thee is standard/typical fare for the liberal mind.... So..the way I see it, we will either have more shifting to the right... That is if they can 'think' about how dems/guns/rights are connected...(and hopefully move further down the path to other issues)And/Or...we will see alot of once or never fired guns in the future used market when this all blows over. Yet....there will be a third group...an underground group that will still be as LWW as they have always been...but will believe they "Have their gun"...and will just hide it when they come for everybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted July 27, 2020 at 11:32 PM Share Posted July 27, 2020 at 11:32 PM The problem is, even those Democrats that I specifically went out of my way to focus on taking out to the range, and teaching them about firearms, even helping with their first purchase, the issue is, guns just are not a political priority to any of these guys. They think there are far, far more important topics, mostly Abortion/Murder rights, Universal Healthcare, LGBTQ, etc, etc. Worse they REALLY, REALLY think their leaders are not targeting to take THEIR guns. Just those their leaders think shouldn't have guns. And they don't see that as a problem at all.If you keep them engaged, point out the problems of some of the legislation that gets introduced for example, you might bring them further into the fold. It would take time and patience but now that you got them to dip their toes, don't let them flounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRJ Posted July 28, 2020 at 12:23 AM Share Posted July 28, 2020 at 12:23 AM I just wanted to thank you guys for having a civilized conversation on a serious topic. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted July 28, 2020 at 04:38 AM Share Posted July 28, 2020 at 04:38 AM The problem is, even those Democrats that I specifically went out of my way to focus on taking out to the range, and teaching them about firearms, even helping with their first purchase, the issue is, guns just are not a political priority to any of these guys. They think there are far, far more important topics, mostly Abortion/Murder rights, Universal Healthcare, LGBTQ, etc, etc. Worse they REALLY, REALLY think their leaders are not targeting to take THEIR guns. Just those their leaders think shouldn't have guns. And they don't see that as a problem at all. If you keep them engaged, point out the problems of some of the legislation that gets introduced for example, you might bring them further into the fold. It would take time and patience but now that you got them to dip their toes, don't let them flounder.Mauser, trust me I push all I can, whenever I can. I've been posting my numerous wins over the years here, converting the gun fearing into gun owners, which really isn't that hard - as at their core, they are all curious, but it does take time, lots and lots of time, and patience. However, trying to elevate the priority of firearms as it relates to politics just doesn't register at all. Definitely easier said than done. The problem is, they truly don't believe that the DNC is looking to take guns away from those who shouldn't have them in the first place. Nothing to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted July 28, 2020 at 12:50 PM Share Posted July 28, 2020 at 12:50 PM I'm afraid that all the people who shouldn't own guns are being talked into buying them using Trump money.What is Trump money and where do I get some? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybermgk Posted July 28, 2020 at 01:18 PM Share Posted July 28, 2020 at 01:18 PM I'm afraid that all the people who shouldn't own guns are being talked into buying them using Trump money.What is Trump money and where do I get some? He is likely referring to the 1250 covid stimulus checks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted July 28, 2020 at 01:59 PM Share Posted July 28, 2020 at 01:59 PM I'm afraid that all the people who shouldn't own guns are being talked into buying them using Trump money.What is Trump money and where do I get some? He is likely referring to the 1250 covid stimulus checks. I guess I didn't know you can cash those on a corner and buy a junk gun from a trunk behind the convenient store. Those are the people who shouldn't own guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveTA84 Posted July 30, 2020 at 12:20 AM Share Posted July 30, 2020 at 12:20 AM If it ends in more gun control being introduced it’s going to be very easy to spin it as racist towards the BLM movement and cause a legit uproar. What have many been saying about gun controls’ origins for years?....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTHunter Posted July 30, 2020 at 02:47 AM Share Posted July 30, 2020 at 02:47 AM FYI - "peaceful" protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted August 1, 2020 at 10:28 PM Share Posted August 1, 2020 at 10:28 PM While some here want to believe otherwise, at the federal level, i.e., Congress and the Presidency, Democrats are anti 2nd Amendment and Republicans are not. Republicans may not be pro gun all the time, but when in control I do not worry about anti gun, anti 2A legislation at all. And it doesn't matter what your friendly downstate Democrat says regarding his or her beliefs in gun rights. Once in Congress, whether the House or Senate he or she will 100% vote the way Pelosi and Schumer tell them to vote. Rarely do ANY Democrats vote in opposition to what their leaders tell them to do, and NEVER on gun rights or gun control issues. So it is just stupid to think that there is not a direct contradiction between supporting the 2nd Amendment and supporting a Democrat for Congress or the White House. Maybe some here put their value on issues like abortion without limit, or wanting massive government growth, or support of organized labor above their level of value for their gun rights, but they should not fool themselves into the myth that one can be both a Democrat and a gun rights supporter. They are polar opposites and to act that this is not the case is naive at best, delusional at worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted August 1, 2020 at 10:40 PM Share Posted August 1, 2020 at 10:40 PM While some here want to believe otherwise, at the federal level, i.e., Congress and the Presidency, Democrats are anti 2nd Amendment and Republicans are not. Republicans may not be pro gun all the time, but when in control I do not worry about anti gun, anti 2A legislation at all. And it doesn't matter what your friendly downstate Democrat says regarding his or her beliefs in gun rights. Once in Congress, whether the House or Senate he or she will 100% vote the way Pelosi and Schumer tell them to vote. Rarely do ANY Democrats vote in opposition to what their leaders tell them to do, and NEVER on gun rights or gun control issues. So it is just stupid to think that there is not a direct contradiction between supporting the 2nd Amendment and supporting a Democrat for Congress or the White House. Maybe some here put their value on issues like abortion without limit, or wanting massive government growth, or support of organized labor above their level of value for their gun rights, but they should not fool themselves into the myth that one can be both a Democrat and a gun rights supporter. They are polar opposites and to act that this is not the case is naive at best, delusional at worst. Amen brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbow Posted August 2, 2020 at 03:02 AM Share Posted August 2, 2020 at 03:02 AM I disagree, but I find it to be pointless to try to explain to people with that opinion, that once you make gun rights a completely partisan issue, you are one election away from losing them all. Make it a bi-partisan issue, and they got a fight on their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec4 Posted August 2, 2020 at 01:03 PM Share Posted August 2, 2020 at 01:03 PM IMO gun rights has been a partisan issue for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinois_buckeye Posted August 3, 2020 at 12:00 AM Share Posted August 3, 2020 at 12:00 AM I think guns have been a very partisan issue. But maybe with all the talk of defunding police and people wanting to defend themselves, maybe that conversation can start to shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted August 3, 2020 at 11:53 AM Share Posted August 3, 2020 at 11:53 AM Once an issue becomes partisan, it is likely impossible to change it back to a non-partisan issue. And the Democrats, at the national level, have made gun control a key policy item for decades now, and show no sign of being willing to give up what they obviously think is a political advantage by pushing ever more restrictive laws. And right now, support of the 2nd Amendment is seen as something that Trump has made very clear is his position, so the Trump haters will fight for the opposite, no matter what. FWIW, I have little doubt that if the Democrats achieve full control in Washington, we will see very restrictive if not draconian new laws regarding guns. And while I would expect compliance to be modest at best, I am not at all confident that many gun owners will believe it is worth using those guns to protect their natural and basic rights to keep and bear arms. One can only wish that I am wrong on this, since the right to keep and bear arms is such as basic right of free people that it is truly worth fighting for almost regardless of the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec4 Posted August 3, 2020 at 12:56 PM Share Posted August 3, 2020 at 12:56 PM Once we lose our gun rights, it's all over. I believe there are enough of us to see this eventuality doesn't occur. I sincerely regret that I am no longer fit for military service. When Trump wins, the insurrection will go full blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted August 3, 2020 at 01:27 PM Share Posted August 3, 2020 at 01:27 PM I disagree, but I find it to be pointless to try to explain to people with that opinion, that once you make gun rights a completely partisan issue, you are one election away from losing them all. Make it a bi-partisan issue, and they got a fight on their hands. LOL, I'm of the strong opinion that us conservatives were not the ones who made it a partisan issue. If defending our 2A rights for everyone, as our founding fathers envisioned and provided, against scumbags who want to continue to whittle against and take them away is causing it a fight - one that we did not start, so be it. Why are you blaming US for a fight they started? Bizarre post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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