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#1 max503

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 04:03 PM

The law says:

 

"(430 ILCS 66/65)
Sec. 65. Prohibited areas.
(a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into:..."

 

----- A licensee. -----  I'm a licensee when I carry a loaded, concealed gun on my person.

 

I ride a bicycle and often go to the library, or ride on a bus.  If I unload my CC gun, and zip the gun into a pistol rug, then I am no longer "A licensee" and I should be able to carry my unloaded, encased gun into the library, or onto the bus.  

 

Anyone see a problem with my interpretation?

 



#2 lee n. field

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 05:00 PM

You're a "licensee" if you have the license.


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#3 DomG

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 05:28 PM

You're a "licensee" if you have the license.


That's one of the arguments of the ambiguity of the law. If someone with only a FOID can "FOID carry", why can't someone with a CCL. do the same?

I also have a driver's license. If I'm a passenger in a car, I won't get a DUI. Same concept. If you're not doing what the license permits you to do, you shouldn't get the punishment of doing it illegally.

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#4 michael

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 05:45 PM

FOID transport doesn't go away just because you have a CCL (see this post by Todd; rest of thread also). However, there's this:

 

 

(720 ILCS 5/21-6) (from Ch. 38, par. 21-6)
    Sec. 21-6. Unauthorized Possession or Storage of Weapons.
    (a) Whoever possesses or stores any weapon enumerated in Section 33A-1 in any building or on land supported in whole or in part with public funds or in any building on such land without prior written permission from the chief security officer for such land or building commits a Class A misdemeanor.
    ( b ) The chief security officer must grant any reasonable request for permission under paragraph (a).
(Source: P.A. 89-685, eff. 6-1-97.)

 

that may apply to the locations mentioned (libraries and buses). I thought I remembered an exemption from 21-6 for carry licensees being passed at some point, but I can't find it now. It wouldn't apply to libraries/buses though as those are already prohibited when operating under the CCL exemption to UUW (as opposed to FOID transport exemption to UUW, seems like everything in IL is a branching tree of IF/THEN exemptions to weapons being illegal to begin with). (standard disclaimer, not a lawyer, etc :) )


Edited by michael, 19 August 2018 - 05:47 PM.


#5 Dx54r

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 06:43 PM

It's concealed for a reason. Unless your local library or bus have metal detectors how would anyone know you were a licensee? If there are indeed no security measures in place to stop or detect a a person with a gun from entering, wouldn't that logically give a good person more of a reason to carry? If you carry a firearm into a restricted place and actually have to use it, will anyone fault you if you use it legally to protect yourself or another and prevent a tragedy?

 

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission in my opinion, because the consequences of needing a firearm and not having it are too great, while the penalties and chance of being outed for having a firearm are low.



#6 Molly B.

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 08:49 PM

It's concealed for a reason. Unless your local library or bus have metal detectors how would anyone know you were a licensee? If there are indeed no security measures in place to stop or detect a a person with a gun from entering, wouldn't that logically give a good person more of a reason to carry? If you carry a firearm into a restricted place and actually have to use it, will anyone fault you if you use it legally to protect yourself or another and prevent a tragedy?

 

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission in my opinion, because the consequences of needing a firearm and not having it are too great, while the penalties and chance of being outed for having a firearm are low.

 

 

This could be interpreted as advocating for breaking the law.  That would be against the IllinoisCarry code of conduct.  That said, this discussion has been had in multiple topics since the Firearm Concealed Carry Act was passed.

 

It is my opinion, once you unload and completely enclose in a case the person transitions to transporting the firearm but the law is gray and could be interpreted in other ways - and especially so in some counties/cities more than others.


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#7 es503IL

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 09:19 PM

The law says:

 

"(430 ILCS 66/65)
Sec. 65. Prohibited areas.
(a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into:..."

 

----- A licensee. -----  I'm a licensee when I carry a loaded, concealed gun on my person.

 

I ride a bicycle and often go to the library, or ride on a bus.  If I unload my CC gun, and zip the gun into a pistol rug, then I am no longer "A licensee" and I should be able to carry my unloaded, encased gun into the library, or onto the bus.  

 

Anyone see a problem with my interpretation?

 

 

Sorry, but NO....

 

The term "licensee" is defined in the Act.

 

PUBLIC SAFETY
(430 ILCS 66/) Firearm Concealed Carry Act.

.......

 "Licensee" means a person issued a license to carry a concealed handgun.

 

However, under;

(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:...

(3) when the handgun is broken down in a non-functioning state, is not immediately accessible, or is unloaded and enclosed in a case.

 

It might be covered.

 

But it gets grey again...

 

(430 ILCS 66/65) Sec. 65. Prohibited areas.

(a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into:...

 

(8) Any bus, train, or form of transportation paid for in whole or in part with public funds, and any building, real property, and parking area under the control of a public transportation facility paid for in whole or in part with public funds.

 

(18) Any building, real property, or parking area under the control of a public library.

 

If you want to be a test case, knock yourself out, but I'm not kicking in any money.


Edited by es503IL, 19 August 2018 - 09:34 PM.


#8 RoadyRunner

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 09:35 PM

Carry != Transport. You may not carry in these locations, but you may transport (just as you were able to do before the carry law passed) as long as you comply with the transport requirements (unloaded in a case is the most popular of the three options)

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#9 TomKoz

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 09:36 PM

Laws are only applicable to those who follow them.

Those who do not follow the Laws don’t care.

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#10 vito

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 07:39 AM

Being on a bicycle, I don't think it would be very easy to discreetly take your gun out of its concealed position, unload it, case it in a separate container, and then continue as a FOID carrier. I'd say either don't go to such a location, or don't have your gun with you if you go. Follow the law. Of course following the law is what all of us as law abiding citizens do all of the time anyway. 


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#11 VannDaddy

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 08:49 AM

You're a "licensee" if you have the license.


That’s the same interpretation that said police who received a FCCL would be under the same restrictions as non-LEO licensees.

#12 Windchaser

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:02 AM

Being on a bicycle, I don't think it would be very easy to discreetly take your gun out of its concealed position, unload it, case it in a separate container, and then continue as a FOID carrier. I'd say either don't go to such a location, or don't have your gun with you if you go. Follow the law. Of course following the law is what all of us as law abiding citizens do all of the time anyway.

I use a case with a lock for this type of situation. While still loaded it is not immediately accessible and therefore is being transported.

#13 soundguy

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:09 AM

The law says:
 
"(430 ILCS 66/65) Sec. 65. Prohibited areas. (a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into:..."
 
----- A licensee. -----  I'm a licensee when I carry a loaded, concealed gun on my person.
 
I ride a bicycle and often go to the library, or ride on a bus.  If I unload my CC gun, and zip the gun into a pistol rug, then I am no longer "A licensee" and I should be able to carry my unloaded, encased gun into the library, or onto the bus.  
 
Anyone see a problem with my interpretation?


There is a difference between carrying and transporting. Because you have an FOID as well as your CCL, you may transport accordingly?

On a bus, I believe you may transport an unloaded encased gun with you’re FOID while on your way from one place to some other destination, perhaps your local gun range or some location where you may legally carry. I don’t know this applies if your destination is the library, or a courthouse. Probably best to be able to legally store your gun if your destination is a prohibited place? Or leave it at home?

I prefer to drive, even when I’m not armed. Except for voting, I have not been inside a library for decades. The internet seems to fulfill those needs for me.
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#14 soundguy

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:21 AM

Being on a bicycle, I don't think it would be very easy to discreetly take your gun out of its concealed position, unload it, case it in a separate container, and then continue as a FOID carrier...

I use a case with a lock for this type of situation. While still loaded it is not immediately accessible and therefore is being transported.

Windchaser:

I imagine some authorities might disagree with your interpretation of not immediately accessible. .

I think not accessible means in a locked case, perhaps in a suitcase in the trunk of your automobile. Unloaded and encased would be far easier to defend. Fanny Pack Carry, unloaded, encased and easily accessible with a fully charged magazine ready for use would be easier to defend than loaded in a portable locked case.

Sometimes... you just need to leave it at home. Until our laws change. If you are transporting (rather than carrying) it is likely best to leave your gun unloaded. Fanny pack. Backpack. Unloaded. These methods have been tested.

Edited by soundguy, 20 August 2018 - 09:24 AM.

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#15 vito

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:28 AM

Sometimes it is better not to ask a question for which you don't like the likely answer. 


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#16 gangrel

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:28 AM

More to the point, if one law says that one category of person is prohibited from doing something, and another law says that a different category of person is specifically allowed to do that same thing, and you fit both categories, the least restrictive law is the one that applies to you. So regardless of whether a license possessing an unloaded and encased firearm is "carrying" or "transporting" that firearm, a FOID holder is clearly transporting under the same circumstances, and is allowed to do so. As you are BOTH a CCL licensee and a FOID holder, the FCCA is irrelevant and the FOID statute takes over. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

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#17 Jeffrey

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:55 AM

 

The law says:
 
"(430 ILCS 66/65) Sec. 65. Prohibited areas. (a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into:..."
 
----- A licensee. -----  I'm a licensee when I carry a loaded, concealed gun on my person.
 
I ride a bicycle and often go to the library, or ride on a bus.  If I unload my CC gun, and zip the gun into a pistol rug, then I am no longer "A licensee" and I should be able to carry my unloaded, encased gun into the library, or onto the bus.  
 
Anyone see a problem with my interpretation?


There is a difference between carrying and transporting. Because you have an FOID as well as your CCL, you may transport accordingly?

On a bus, I believe you may transport an unloaded encased gun with you’re FOID while on your way from one place to some other destination, perhaps your local gun range or some location where you may legally carry. I don’t know this applies if your destination is the library, or a courthouse. Probably best to be able to legally store your gun if your destination is a prohibited place? Or leave it at home?

I prefer to drive, even when I’m not armed. Except for voting, I have not been inside a library for decades. The internet seems to fulfill those needs for me.

 

That explains a lot.  Believe it or not, there is still a lot of good reading in a library.  Not all news and info is totally accurate online.  I give more credit to a book that also has sources attached to the facts they are attempting to convey.


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#18 Jeffrey

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:57 AM

What if your local library just doesn't post?  The building is also used for other resources besides the books.  My local entrance has nothing posted.


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#19 dumpnpump

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 10:49 AM

Illinois libraries could take a page from Arizona libraries.  There are banks of individual lockers available where firearms are stored while you are in the library.  Not unlike a locker at a bus or train station, only you hold the key to the locker that you have used.  Perhaps the state could spend a little of the surplus money it has to install lockers.  After all, it is a state requirement.  


 


#20 soundguy

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 10:53 AM

What if your local library just doesn't post?  The building is also used for other resources besides the books.  My local entrance has nothing posted.

 

A library is specifically included as a no carry zone.

They do not need to post.

 

It is entirely your responsibility as a licensee to know which locations (23) are prohibited and not required to post. It was or should have been included in your 16 hours of training, and it's not a horrible idea to review changes to the law from time to time. It will or should be included in your 3 hour refresher course.

 

I doubt you would be granted any leeway should you carry in your library because you didn't see they did not post the sign that doesn't need to you know should be there.

 

edited- thank you Windchaser... and gangrel.


Edited by soundguy, 20 August 2018 - 11:10 AM.

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#21 Windchaser

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 10:56 AM

What if your local library just doesn't post?  The building is also used for other resources besides the books.  My local entrance has nothing posted.

 
A library is specifically included as a no carry zone. They do not need to post.
It is up to you to know which locations (23?) are prohibited and not required to post.
It was included in your 16 hours of training, and it's not a horrible idea to review changes to the law from time to time.
 
I doubt you would be granted any leeway should you carry in your library because you didn't see the sign that doesn't need to be there.
Technically all prohibited locations must be posted including those prohibited by law. I doubt it would provide much of a defense to say you didn’t see a sign but they are still required to post.

#22 gangrel

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 11:00 AM


What if your local library just doesn't post?  The building is also used for other resources besides the books.  My local entrance has nothing posted.


 
A library is specifically included as a no carry zone.
They do not need to post.
 
It is entirely your responsibility as a licensee to know which locations (23) are prohibited and not required to post. It was or should have been included in your 16 hours of training, and it's not a horrible idea to review changes to the law from time to time. It will or should be included in your 3 hour refresher course.
 
I doubt you would be granted any leeway should you carry in your library because you didn't see the sign that doesn't need to be there.

I mostly agree with you here, except the law does in fact require libraries (or any of the other statutory prohibited places for that matter) to post. The problem is, 1) there is no penalty for them for non-compliance, 2) we are expected to know those 23 categories of prohibited places, and 3) there most certainly is a penalty for us for non-compliance.

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#23 soundguy

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 11:11 AM

 

What if your local library just doesn't post?  The building is also used for other resources besides the books.  My local entrance has nothing posted.


 
A library is specifically included as a no carry zone.
They do not need to post.
 
It is entirely your responsibility as a licensee to know which locations (23) are prohibited and not required to post. It was or should have been included in your 16 hours of training, and it's not a horrible idea to review changes to the law from time to time. It will or should be included in your 3 hour refresher course.
 
I doubt you would be granted any leeway should you carry in your library because you didn't see the sign that doesn't need to be there.

I mostly agree with you here, except the law does in fact require libraries (or any of the other statutory prohibited places for that matter) to post. The problem is, 1) there is no penalty for them for non-compliance, 2) we are expected to know those 23 categories of prohibited places, and 3) there most certainly is a penalty for us for non-compliance.

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Edited with credits.
 

A library is specifically included as a no carry zone.

They do not need to post.

 

It is entirely your responsibility as a licensee to know which locations (23) are prohibited and not required to post. It was or should have been included in your 16 hours of training, and it's not a horrible idea to review changes to the law from time to time. It will or should be included in your 3 hour refresher course.

 

I doubt you would be granted any leeway should you carry in your library because you didn't see they did not post the sign that doesn't need to you know should be there.

 

edited- thank you Windchaser... and gangrel.


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#24 Jeffrey

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 11:26 AM

 

What if your local library just doesn't post?  The building is also used for other resources besides the books.  My local entrance has nothing posted.


 
A library is specifically included as a no carry zone.
They do not need to post.
 
It is entirely your responsibility as a licensee to know which locations (23) are prohibited and not required to post. It was or should have been included in your 16 hours of training, and it's not a horrible idea to review changes to the law from time to time. It will or should be included in your 3 hour refresher course.
 
I doubt you would be granted any leeway should you carry in your library because you didn't see the sign that doesn't need to be there.

I mostly agree with you here, except the law does in fact require libraries (or any of the other statutory prohibited places for that matter) to post. The problem is, 1) there is no penalty for them for non-compliance, 2) we are expected to know those 23 categories of prohibited places, and 3) there most certainly is a penalty for us for non-compliance.

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That is what I was taught in class.  

 

I plan to let them figure out for themselves that it is required to display the CPZ signal.


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#25 max503

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 11:56 AM

BEFORE we had CC, could you take an unloaded gun into a library, if the gun was in a gun-specific case?

I ask because before CC, you could not legally carry an unloaded gun in a Cherrios box.  It had to be a gun case.

 

I'm pretty certain an unloaded gun in a pistol rug in a back pack would not be a problem in either of the libraries in my town.  Guess I wouldn't want to do it in Chicago.



#26 Glock23

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 12:01 PM

I ask because before CC, you could not legally carry an unloaded gun in a Cherrios box.  It had to be a gun case.
Incorrect. The FCCA made no changes to what is/is not a case.

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#27 Jeffrey

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 12:21 PM

Wasn't the decision as to what is or is not a case, came down to whether you could close it shut or not?  Just like when it was decided the center console could be considered a case?


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#28 gangrel

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 12:57 PM

BEFORE we had CC, could you take an unloaded gun into a library, if the gun was in a gun-specific case?
I ask because before CC, you could not legally carry an unloaded gun in a Cherrios box.  It had to be a gun case.
 
I'm pretty certain an unloaded gun in a pistol rug in a back pack would not be a problem in either of the libraries in my town.  Guess I wouldn't want to do it in Chicago.

The UUW law says now, and has said since it passed, "...unloaded in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container..." "Case" has never been a defined term. Where this confusion comes from is that 1) the wildlife code used to say something to the extent of "unloaded and enclosed in a case designed for transporting a firearm," and 2) folks got legal advice from the likes of cops or lawyers who don't specialize in this area of the law.

The former was troubling because there were cases (or at least rumors of cases) where people transporting in their daily lives were charged with violations of the wildlife code, while complying with the UUW statute. The wildlife code was changed a few years ago to bring its definition of a "case" in line with the UUW law. So now both state "in a case" but do not define a "case.'

The later is a great example of why not to get legal advice from a cop.

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#29 RoadyRunner

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 04:20 PM

They do not need to post


Yes they do. The only exemption to the requirement to post is private residences.

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#30 papa

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 04:20 PM

BEFORE we had CC, could you take an unloaded gun into a library, if the gun was in a gun-specific case?

I ask because before CC, you could not legally carry an unloaded gun in a Cherrios box.  It had to be a gun case.

 

I'm pretty certain an unloaded gun in a pistol rug in a back pack would not be a problem in either of the libraries in my town.  Guess I wouldn't want to do it in Chicago.

 

Before FCCL was passed I and another member of this forum saw a deputy sheriff ok the carry of an unloaded Ruger .357 revolver , wrapped in a towel , and stuffed into a gallon size Zip-Lock baggie.






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