Shooting Qualification for License To Carry

[RockerXX]

Someone could go all Dirty Harry and bring a S&W model 29!

 

I have considered it, but only loaded with specials, the darn thing is a beast with magnums...

[Frank]

My opinion is that instructors are there to instruct and not make value judgments about choices of firearms used by the civilians. Why would an instructor consider increased training requirements for a constitutional right? Your values are no better than anyone else's.

 

Value judgments? No, but many new firearms owners do look to instructors for recommendations about firearms. I pass on my knowledge and experience to my students, and I give them suggestions if it appears they are struggling due to their physical abilities and are unable to safely operate their handgun.

 

If someone wants qualify with a .22lr, that's fine by me. If someone wants to qualify with a .50 AE Desert Eagle, I won't stop them if they can do it safely. I wouldn't dream of increasing the minimum training requirements, but I will not automatically give a student a passing grade if they are unsafe or don't earn every last point needed on their target.

 

But what I will do is encourage students to use the gear they intend to defend their lives with. I love plinking with my .22's, but that doesn't help me build skills that will keep me alive. People may find that they are more accurate with a .22 target pistol, and they may find it more comfortable to shoot a full-sized Glock than their pocket-rocket, but they are just fooling themselves if they think this equates directly their defensive capabilities.

 

Train the way you fight, fight the way you train.

 

-- Frank

[sirflyguy]

Regarding the interpretation of where the hits count: could the ISP make the target scoring more strict than the law says? I would think that there would need to be another law made to allow such a thing. And unless told differently by official memo, I am scoring anything in the black (or whatever color) as a hit. Having said that, I took my daughter and son-in-law out Sunday and we shot it. My daughter had probably not shot a pistol in a year or so. She passed using a Beretta Neos .22LR with a 100% hit rate, and never got out of the 9 ring. Really, there is no time limit given with this test, so if someone can't pass it with 70% hits in the black, they need to practice a lot more or get their eyes checked.

[GlockShooter]

I suspect the law would have to be changed before that would change. So far, so good.

[Frank]

Regarding the interpretation of where the hits count: could the ISP make the target scoring more strict than the law says? I would think that there would need to be another law made to allow such a thing. And unless told differently by official memo, I am scoring anything in the black (or whatever color) as a hit. Having said that, I took my daughter and son-in-law out Sunday and we shot it. My daughter had probably not shot a pistol in a year or so. She passed using a Beretta Neos .22LR with a 100% hit rate, and never got out of the 9 ring. Really, there is no time limit given with this test, so if someone can't pass it with 70% hits in the black, they need to practice a lot more or get their eyes checked.

 

I ran my nephew and his wife through a Basic Pistol course a while back. When we were done with the range portion, I asked if they wanted to try out the IL CCW course, and they jumped at the chance. She was using a short-barreled .38 and managed a perfect score despite having very little experience with it.

 

-- Frank

[Paulkucz]

So, how will you score someone using a Judge loaded with shot?

 

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[BIGDEESUL]

I took the NRA 8 hour basic pistol course a few months ago as a refresher, and also to knock out 8 hours of the training requirement. We shot to qualify for the ccw legislstion, and I was really surprised and worried about how easy it was to qualify.

 

I think the distance should be doubled and/or the target size made smaller. I find it kind of disturbing that we have to waste 16 hours training, yet shoot the equivalent of a barn with our eyes closed to qualify.

 

That being said, I used my XDM45, and the instructor was joking that there weren't enough holes in the target. Just one jagged hole in the middle with a couple flyers in the 9 ring.

 

I was thinking of using my 500S&W if I have to go through another qualification, but I guess I'd be a jerk for doing so:p

 

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[Frank]

So, how will you score someone using a Judge loaded with shot?

 

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LOL! Good question!

 

-- Frank

[Tvandermyde]

Guys I just shot the Illinois LE qualification course. it's 50 rounds and out to 25 yards I believe. I shot it with my Kimber ProCarry II and my XDM 3.8 9mm. I scored a 98 on both. I did like they way they set up parts of the shoot.

 

load 3 mags. 6 rounds a piece. The routine was to draw and fire 2 rounds. Then draw and fire 2 rounds. Next was to draw and fire 2 rounds plus 2 rounds from reload using a mag on my belt. You get the idea. There was a timed fire for two parts of it. And I think there are parts that could be incorporated into the carry qualification. It helps show an understanding of the gun, the draw the reload and overall gun handling.

[RockerXX]

So, how will you score someone using a Judge loaded with shot?

 

IMO if they put a hole in the target it's a hit... Shot is obviously not ideal for qualifying but it's also not forbidden... If the instructor really wanted to get a better judgement of hit/miss with shot shell they could request the student shoot them a cut-shells, but even that might be stepping on the students choice...

[BIGDEESUL]

Guys I just shot the Illinois LE qualification course. it's 50 rounds and out to 25 yards I believe. I shot it with my Kimber ProCarry II and my XDM 3.8 9mm. I scored a 98 on both. I did like they way they set up parts of the shoot.

 

load 3 mags. 6 rounds a piece. The routine was to draw and fire 2 rounds. Then draw and fire 2 rounds. Next was to draw and fire 2 rounds plus 2 rounds from reload using a mag on my belt. You get the idea. There was a timed fire for two parts of it. And I think there are parts that could be incorporated into the carry qualification. It helps show an understanding of the gun, the draw the reload and overall gun handling.

 

That sounds more like what the qualification should be.

 

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[pdpsc]

Guys I just shot the Illinois LE qualification course. it's 50 rounds and out to 25 yards I believe. I shot it with my Kimber ProCarry II and my XDM 3.8 9mm. I scored a 98 on both. I did like they way they set up parts of the shoot.

 

load 3 mags. 6 rounds a piece. The routine was to draw and fire 2 rounds. Then draw and fire 2 rounds. Next was to draw and fire 2 rounds plus 2 rounds from reload using a mag on my belt. You get the idea. There was a timed fire for two parts of it. And I think there are parts that could be incorporated into the carry qualification. It helps show an understanding of the gun, the draw the reload and overall gun handling.

 

You can find the ILETSB minimum standard for LE annual firearms qualification here: http://www.ptb.state.il.us/pdf/pa94103.pdf

 

The minimum standard is 30 rounds at distances to 15 yards. Agencies are allowed to adopt a standard more stringent than the ILETSB standard though (more rounds, longer distances, positions, more reloads, etc...).

[tkroenlein]

Guys I just shot the Illinois LE qualification course. it's 50 rounds and out to 25 yards I believe. I shot it with my Kimber ProCarry II and my XDM 3.8 9mm. I scored a 98 on both. I did like they way they set up parts of the shoot.

 

load 3 mags. 6 rounds a piece. The routine was to draw and fire 2 rounds. Then draw and fire 2 rounds. Next was to draw and fire 2 rounds plus 2 rounds from reload using a mag on my belt. You get the idea. There was a timed fire for two parts of it. And I think there are parts that could be incorporated into the carry qualification. It helps show an understanding of the gun, the draw the reload and overall gun handling.

 

That sounds more like what the qualification should be.

 

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That would make it pretty rough for a whole lot of folks!

[fugawee]

sorry guys,I disagree...

qualification for CCW should be

your an American Citizen.

[BIGDEESUL]

Guys I just shot the Illinois LE qualification course. it's 50 rounds and out to 25 yards I believe. I shot it with my Kimber ProCarry II and my XDM 3.8 9mm. I scored a 98 on both. I did like they way they set up parts of the shoot.

 

load 3 mags. 6 rounds a piece. The routine was to draw and fire 2 rounds. Then draw and fire 2 rounds. Next was to draw and fire 2 rounds plus 2 rounds from reload using a mag on my belt. You get the idea. There was a timed fire for two parts of it. And I think there are parts that could be incorporated into the carry qualification. It helps show an understanding of the gun, the draw the reload and overall gun handling.

 

That sounds more like what the qualification should be.

 

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That would make it pretty rough for a whole lot of folks!

 

I don't think so. Those folks should probably practice more. 25 yds is excessive for defensive purposes, but the size of the target at that distance would actually qualify people rather than making surecthry can point and shoot.

 

I don't want my kids shot by a stray bullet from someone who can barely hit a target.

 

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[RockerXX]

sorry guys,I disagree...

qualification for CCW should be

your an American Citizen.

 

+1

[Tango7]

I posted a picture of the targets we used at PTI. I'll see if I can repost them here.

 

ETA - it wasw over at the other site that I had this dicussion, but I was able to find it.

 

If they follow the 40 hour MFT (LE) requirements as the model it will be center mass:

 

PTB Annual Firearms Testing Admin Rules

 

Section 1720.APPENDIX C Firearm Qualification Course-of-Fire

1) Target Scoring Area: 8½ x 14 inch overlay/center mass of target. The defined firearm

types are: Semi-auto/Revolver handgun; minimum capacity 5 rounds

 

2) For Duty Handgun Qualification, all stages of fire will commence from a secured holster.

For Off Duty/Retired Officer Qualification, all stages of fire will commence with the

handgun in hand from the "low ready" position. A passing score is 70% = 21 hits on center

mass.

 

3) Where indicated below, the word "DRAW" requires the shooter to withdraw the handgun

from a secured holster on the command to fire. The word "PRESENT" means that the

shooter has the handgun in the shooting hand in low ready (depressed muzzle) position and

stands ready for the command to fire under the following conditions:

 

5 Yard line – Total of 12 rounds

Stage 1 Draw/Present and fire 2 rounds in 6 seconds

Stage 2 Draw/Present and fire 2 rounds in 6 seconds

Stage 3 Draw/Present and fire 2 rounds in 6 seconds

Stage 4 Draw/Present and fire 2 rounds in 6 seconds

Stage 5 Draw/Present and fire 2 rounds in 6 seconds

Stage 6 Draw/Present and fire 2 rounds in 6 seconds

Shooters will reload without command as needed between stages of fire.

 

7 Yard line – Total of 12 rounds

Stage 7 Draw/Present and fire 3 rounds in 7 seconds

Stage 8 Draw/Present and fire 3 rounds in 7 seconds

Stage 9 Draw/Present and fire 3 rounds in 7 seconds

Stage 10 Draw/Present and fire 3 rounds in 7 seconds

 

15 Yard line – Total of 6 rounds

Stage 11 Draw/Present and fire 3 rounds in 10 seconds

Stage 12 Draw/Present and fire 3 rounds in 10 seconds

Stage 12 <OPTIONAL> 25 Yard line-: Draw/Present and fire 3

rounds in 15 seconds

(in lieu of the second 10 second /three round string at 15 yards)

 

4) The above course-of-fire is the minimum standard required. Any agency may

include any modification that increases the level of difficulty such as reloading,

alternate hands, movement, time restriction, or other job related skills.

(Source: Added at 30 Ill. Reg. 7925, effective April 11, 2006)

 

 

ETA - Found my old targets from PTI. They use an 8 1/2" x 14" paper with rings like so:

 

http://i40.tinypic.com/2nb7lsw.jpg

 

We were told if it hits the paper - even partially, like the flyers in the lower left and 12 o'clock - it counts.

[RockerXX]

I don't want my kids shot by a stray bullet from someone who can barely hit a target.

 

I'll say it again, look at the states that do not require live fire or classes of any kind to carry, is this imagined stray bullet issue you perceive more of a problem then states that require testing for carry? If the answer is no then your stray bullet concern is fear based hyperbole...

[BIGDEESUL]

If you csn legally own a firearm you should be able to carry it. But if we have to go through 16 hours if training, more focus should be on shooting skill than 15.75 hrs in the classroom and a 15 minute range qualification.

 

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[BIGDEESUL]

I don't want my kids shot by a stray bullet from someone who can barely hit a target.

 

I'll say it again, look at the states that do not require live fire or classes of any kind to carry, is this imagined stray bullet issue you perceive more of a problem then states that require testing for carry? If the answer is no then your stray bullet concern is fear based hyperbole...

 

No, and shooting at a target is different than a real defensive situation, so someone who can put 5 shot groups through the ssme hole might not even hit an attacker. You don't know what's going to happen.

 

I support constitutional carry rather than any permit, but I also see people next to me at the range that can barely hit a target. And they will be carrying soon.

 

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[Mr. Fife]

While I'm not worried about myself being able to qualify, I question the wisdom of adding layers of difficulty to those who may be challenged by a handicap or age.

 

A person who needs to CCW may only need to get one shot off to save their life, and they may not need to be dead nuts accurate to do so.

 

In a real world self defense scenario, I have a hard time envisioning a little old granny holding off a bad guy with 30 rounds.

 

Not that it can't happen, but really? And fast draw on top of it?

 

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[TyGuy]

And the streets are running red with blood from untrained law abiding citizens.

 

Wait, they aren't? Oh, the blood is from the police that are terrible shots? My bad.

[sirflyguy]

If you csn legally own a firearm you should be able to carry it. But if we have to go through 16 hours if training, more focus should be on shooting skill than 15.75 hrs in the classroom and a 15 minute range qualification.

 

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It doesn't specify a 15 minute range time, though I am guessing you are making a point and not necessarily being literal. I plan on getting the legal stuff out of the way and then spending the rest of the time letting folks shoot before they take the range test.

[tkroenlein]

If you csn legally own a firearm you should be able to carry it. But if we have to go through 16 hours if training, more focus should be on shooting skill than 15.75 hrs in the classroom and a 15 minute range qualification.

 

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I think we'll have to count on our instructors to give their students as many tools to defend themselves as they can. There will be rank amateurs shooting for the first time taking the 16 hour class. The times presented above would dictate 2 second draws followed by 2 seconds/shot. That's a pretty high standard for a newb.

[GAS3987]

I purchased some targets off amazon that I thought were B-27, but they are B-27Q, the 1/2 size ones. I guess it would not be bad to practice on a smaller target and be better prepared for the test. Which reminds me, I gotta get to the range with my wife!

[BIGDEESUL]

If you csn legally own a firearm you should be able to carry it. But if we have to go through 16 hours if training, more focus should be on shooting skill than 15.75 hrs in the classroom and a 15 minute range qualification.

 

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It doesn't specify a 15 minute range time, though I am guessing you are making a point and not necessarily being literal. I plan on getting the legal stuff out of the way and then spending the rest of the time letting folks shoot before they take the range test.

 

Correct, didn't mean it literally. I also didn't mean to sound like a jerk. I just hope that there is more range time involved, and that instructors csn help the less experienced shooters with any weaknesses they have, as well as improve the skills of the more experienced.

 

When I took the ccw class for my Florida permit, the instructor stressed right at the beginning that it was not a class for beginners, and if you were not proficient with your weapon, you should take a beginners course first.

 

 

 

 

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[BIGDEESUL]

If you csn legally own a firearm you should be able to carry it. But if we have to go through 16 hours if training, more focus should be on shooting skill than 15.75 hrs in the classroom and a 15 minute range qualification.

 

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I think we'll have to count on our instructors to give their students as many tools to defend themselves as they can. There will be rank amateurs shooting for the first time taking the 16 hour class. The times presented above would dictate 2 second draws followed by 2 seconds/shot. That's a pretty high standard for a newb.

 

True. It is a bit excessive. As Todd stated, maybe some facets could be incorporated.

 

But newbs should become proficient before carrying.

 

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[Frank]

 

True. It is a bit excessive. As Todd stated, maybe some facets could be incorporated.

 

But newbs should become proficient safe before carrying.

 

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Fixed it for ya!

 

-- Frank

[RockerXX]

I don't want my kids shot by a stray bullet from someone who can barely hit a target.

 

I'll say it again, look at the states that do not require live fire or classes of any kind to carry, is this imagined stray bullet issue you perceive more of a problem then states that require testing for carry? If the answer is no then your stray bullet concern is fear based hyperbole...

 

No, and shooting at a target is different than a real defensive situation, so someone who can put 5 shot groups through the ssme hole might not even hit an attacker. You don't know what's going to happen.

 

I support constitutional carry rather than any permit, but I also see people next to me at the range that can barely hit a target. And they will be carrying soon.

 

You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist in the real world... Yes, there will be horrible shots at the range, but that doesn't equate to blood in the streets due to stray bullets from untrained people carrying a firearm... Look a scenario like the recent Dorner case in California, where those highly trained 8 California police officers sprayed about 100 bullets into a truck with two innocent ladies inside... What did all their training accomplish, it certainly didn't prevent them from spraying off 100 ill placed stray bullets... While I'm sure there are plenty of instances of untrained people that happened to be carrying that hit their target and only their target...

[TyGuy]

Or the NYPD that shot 9, NINE, bystanders for one guy