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Culp vs Madigan - Lawsuit Filed On Behalf of Non-Residents


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#661 MrTriple

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 08:14 AM

Any way Highland Park can be re-argued?.... (yeah, I know...)

That would be nice but I'm hopeful that SCOTUS will take Kolbe. Just pulled the orders list from 10/30 for the conference on the 27th. Cert was denied in Robinson. Now they don't wanna touch the Exclusionary Rule and Automobile Exception. Or disturb Terry.

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One theory I have is maybe they'll wait on taking Kolbe until Kennedy retires. Supposedly Kennedy never hired any law clerks for this term, can anyone confirm that? If so, that might suggest imminent retirement.

My concern with Kolbe is that it doesn't appear to address the issue of magazines, only the weapons themselves, and also doesn't appear to address the issue of scrutiny. If we could only get them to address scrutiny, we could much more effectively overturn all sorts of restrictions and laws. Not sure why they never fully addressed the issue to begin with.
"The point of [so-called "assault weapon" bans]...is not to ban firearms that are dangerous, it's to ban firearms that gun owners want to own because the people making the laws don't like gun owners. If we want to buy non-semiauto AR-style rifles, they'll ban those too, and for the same reason."

-Hapless

#662 skinnyb82

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 10:29 AM

Well the three-judge panel addressed scrutiny. Then the en banc panel said "screw that" and went back to the two-step, intermediate scrutiny, ignored...everything. Petitioners not arguing that in the cert petition is...meh. The en banc panel said weapons of war CAN be banned. Miller said weapons of war CANNOT be banned. They're at odds with 88 years of precedent. In US v. Staples, Thomas said "assault weapons" is a concocted term that has no meaning. Magazines lump in with the firearms themselves since all semi-autos are useless without mags or clips. All mags are useless without a companion firearm. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#663 MrTriple

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:58 PM

Well the three-judge panel addressed scrutiny. Then the en banc panel said "screw that" and went back to the two-step, intermediate scrutiny, ignored...everything. Petitioners not arguing that in the cert petition is...meh. The en banc panel said weapons of war CAN be banned. Miller said weapons of war CANNOT be banned. They're at odds with 88 years of precedent. In US v. Staples, Thomas said "assault weapons" is a concocted term that has no meaning. Magazines lump in with the firearms themselves since all semi-autos are useless without mags or clips. All mags are useless without a companion firearm.

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But we need the court to explicitly state such. The gun control movement thrives on finding exceptions and exploiting them. If they don't explicitly address magazines alongside "assault weapons," then the gun control movement will drop the "assault weapons" issue and focus entirely on banning magazines because "the court never said we couldn't!"

It's the same reason why I'm upset that Heller never addressed gun registration. It was a mistake for him to claim that he didn't have a problem with registering his guns; he should've disputed that alongside everything else. By not addressing the issue, the court gave enough benefit of the doubt to the concept that the gun control movement can now claim that because it wasn't explicitly banned, they can freely pursue registration laws.

Edited by MrTriple, 02 November 2017 - 01:01 PM.

"The point of [so-called "assault weapon" bans]...is not to ban firearms that are dangerous, it's to ban firearms that gun owners want to own because the people making the laws don't like gun owners. If we want to buy non-semiauto AR-style rifles, they'll ban those too, and for the same reason."

-Hapless

#664 kwc

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:19 AM

The plaintiffs' brief to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals was filed yesterday. This forum can't accommodate a file of this size, so I've hosted it here:

 

http://morsel.info/w...lants-Brief.pdf

 

 


"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#665 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:09 AM

The plaintiffs' brief to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals was filed yesterday. This forum can't accommodate a file of this size, so I've hosted it here:

 

http://morsel.info/w...lants-Brief.pdf

 

 

 

Unholy . . . that thing is 465 pages long! That is some serious post-BBQ overeating toilet reading!


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“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
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“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
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#666 kwc

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:27 AM

The plaintiffs' brief to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals was filed yesterday. This forum can't accommodate a file of this size, so I've hosted it here:
 
http://morsel.info/w...lants-Brief.pdf

 
Unholy . . . that thing is 465 pages long! That is some serious post-BBQ overeating toilet reading!

That’s a unique way to put it! ;)

Most of it is appendices. The argument itself is much shorter.
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#667 ChicagoZman

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 07:12 AM

Thanks for posting this Colonel.  After reading the brief, (only the first 70 pages or so), I cannot understand how any judge could say no to the request, but I'm just a poor uneducated former banker.


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#668 skinnyb82

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 07:54 AM

Sigale lays it out in plain English. "It was determined, for purposes of obtaining a preliminary injunction against the ban, that Plaintiffs showed a likelihood of success on the merits, irreparable harm, and no adequate remedy at law. The only factor in which the Courts have ruled against Plaintiffs was the balance of harm/public interest element. Nothing on Defendants’ end has changed. They still have no evidence that allowing non-resident CCL holders to file CCL applications in Illinois would cause any harm, or that allowing non-resident CCL applications has caused harm anywhere else. Defendants cannot even argue that CCL reciprocity has caused a problem in any other state. The Defendants have nothing factual to support their discriminatory restriction. In contrast, Plaintiffs show that CCL permit-holders are lawabiding and commit less crime than the general population, which explains why Defendants cannot show that any harm would result from enjoining the ban. Defendants likewise cannot show any resulting harm from allowing non-resident CCL-holders to possess firearms in public while in their cars on Illinois roads, on hunting grounds, firing ranges and sport-shooting locations, and on Illinois residents’ private property. The State allows all this yet denies the ability to apply for an actual CCL, which would ensure training, registration into Illinois’s CCL system, and compliance with all of Illinois’s CCL requirements." Have fun arguing against that. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#669 kwc

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:29 AM

Update on the timeline moving forward: The court has ordered the Appellees' (defendants') brief to be filed by Dec 7 and the Appellants' (plaintiffs') reply brief, if any, to be filed by Dec 21.


"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#670 press1280

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 10:27 AM

The case should be so simple. Residents of 45 states are banned from carry in IL period.while the stuff about the surveys and all show an arbitrary system, it just shouldn't be necessary. What needs to be spelled out is except for very few rights like voting,a state cannot with hold those rights from non residents.

#671 Gamma

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:18 PM

Have fun arguing against that

The sad reality is that they don't have to. The courts will almost always just side with the state by default, because guns are scary. Hopefully it won't fly this time.
Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#672 kwc

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 07:25 PM

No surprise... the state asked for an extension to file their brief. The court granted one.

The appellees’ brief is now due Jan 8.
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#673 OldMarineVet

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 08:15 AM

thanks, kwc



#674 kwc

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 08:04 PM

Not surprisingly, Madigan et al filed another extension request. The court approved it. The appellees’ response is now due Feb 7, and the plaintiffs’ reply is due Feb 21. Rationale given for the extension request is, simply put, “...too busy with other cases.”
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#675 ChicagoZman

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 09:01 PM

This is ridiculous.  In what other occupation or position of responsibility would you be afforded repeated delays simply because you believed yourself overworked?  I know that throughout my career, failure to meet deadlines would have resulted in my dismissal.  And then the only thing at stake (besides reputation) was money, while in this case there are lives that hang in the balance.  I know of at least one Illinois resident that is alive today because he used his legally carried firearm in Indiana to defend himself against an armed attack.  God have mercy on Lisa Madigan, Leo Schmitz, and Jessica Trame should I or anyone else that frequents Illinois for work, school or tourism die because of their intransigence over allowing honest citizens of other states the right to bear arms.


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#676 Hap

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 09:09 PM

At this point it's pretty clear that Madigan hopes she can drag this out long enough that her successor will be stuck with the eventual loss.

Edited by Hap, 02 January 2018 - 09:09 PM.

Ad utrumque paratus


#677 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 12:23 AM

Not surprisingly, Madigan et al filed another extension request. The court approved it. The appellees’ response is now due Feb 7, and the plaintiffs’ reply is due Feb 21. Rationale given for the extension request is, simply put, “...too busy with other cases.”

 

How can this kind of stalling cr@p-wankery be prevented by the plaintiff, especially after so many BS delays and delaying motions? There surely has to be some sort of recourse that the plaintiff's attorney can file to stop this blatant stalling tactic.


“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 


#678 Gamma

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 05:01 PM

There's really no way to compel the court to take action, they could sit on the case for years if they wanted to. Other than the usual incessant stalling by the state, they are probably additionally motivated to wait to see if nationwide recognition passes which would moot the need for an injunction and avoid them losing yet another 2A case.
Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#679 skinnyb82

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:48 AM


Not surprisingly, Madigan et al filed another extension request. The court approved it. The appellees’ response is now due Feb 7, and the plaintiffs’ reply is due Feb 21. Rationale given for the extension request is, simply put, “...too busy with other cases.”


 
How can this kind of stalling cr@p-wankery be prevented by the plaintiff, especially after so many BS delays and delaying motions? There surely has to be some sort of recourse that the plaintiff's attorney can file to stop this blatant stalling tactic.

It works because it's the government. Courts always grant extensions for the government. They just assume that the lawyers are overworked. I mean, I don't think that the motions panel will keep granting extensions. They will say "ENOUGH" but the whole "I went on vacation" or "I'm a poor ($100k salaried) AAG and overworked" excuses are accepted by the court on a regular basis.

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#680 kwc

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 10:47 AM

Yesterday the AAG requested a third extension (usual excuses—too busy), which the court approved. The defendants’ brief is now due March 9. The court said they expect the briefings to proceed as scheduled after this extension since CA7’s docket is current.
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#681 Gamma

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 01:22 PM

Good grief.
Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#682 Gamma

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 01:29 PM

Here's an idea for them.

Since it's ok to just change the acceptible-states list at will, just change the list to green light all the states where the plantiffs live. Then they can go to the court and say, case is moot. Then a year from now, change the list back and revoke any licenses from those states. Problem solved. I'm surprised the dedicated and helpful public servants in the IL AG and ISP legal haven't thought of that yet.

Edited by Gamma, 01 February 2018 - 01:29 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#683 kwc

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 02:34 PM

Oh gosh... please don’t give them any ideas!!!
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#684 Lou

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 03:07 PM

Yesterday the AAG requested a third extension (usual excuses—too busy), which the court approved. The defendants’ brief is now due March 9. The court said they expect the briefings to proceed as scheduled after this extension since CA7’s docket is current.

. Justice delayed is justice denied.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -  George Orwell

A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again. 


#685 Plinkermostly

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 08:41 AM

Also it would take them more than the year (before reversal) to come up with the rules, process applications, . . . .

 

And I do not think that 'they' have not already considered all of that in case 'they' need a plan B.



#686 press1280

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 04:46 PM

Yesterday the AAG requested a third extension (usual excuses—too busy), which the court approved. The defendants’ brief is now due March 9. The court said they expect the briefings to proceed as scheduled after this extension since CA7’s docket is current.

If the court put that in writing then that should be the last extension. I think this happened in another case and once the court pretty much said "That's it," they finally got their s***t together and filed the brief.



#687 press1280

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 04:52 PM

Here's an idea for them.

Since it's ok to just change the acceptible-states list at will, just change the list to green light all the states where the plantiffs live. Then they can go to the court and say, case is moot. Then a year from now, change the list back and revoke any licenses from those states. Problem solved. I'm surprised the dedicated and helpful public servants in the IL AG and ISP legal haven't thought of that yet.

I thought there were IN residents as part of this; if they green light them then they throw out training as being needed to be substantially similar. That starts down a very dangerous path for them. It'll get so ridiculous (more than it is even now) that they could lose on rational basis. 



#688 Gamma

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 08:06 PM

Here's an idea for them.

Since it's ok to just change the acceptible-states list at will, just change the list to green light all the states where the plantiffs live. Then they can go to the court and say, case is moot. Then a year from now, change the list back and revoke any licenses from those states. Problem solved. I'm surprised the dedicated and helpful public servants in the IL AG and ISP legal haven't thought of that yet.

I thought there were IN residents as part of this; if they green light them then they throw out training as being needed to be substantially similar. That starts down a very dangerous path for them. It'll get so ridiculous (more than it is even now) that they could lose on rational basis.

It was a sarcastic example of a ridiculous path that they could take in their zeal to delay and circumvent firearms rights. Such a stunt would also likely get them crushed by the judiciary in the subsequent litigation.

As far as Indiana, they should do an "enhanced" license like ID or ND, which with careful design could accomplish numerous things: meet Illinois requirements, as well as those of numerous other states like MN, ND, and NV. Such a license would alleviate the need for IN residents to add-on a FL or UT permit as so many do, as well as make IL possible.

I've stated before and will repeat, that if that happened, or something similar that would lead to a ton of out-of-state applicants, that some sort of reciprocity/recognition would soon be implemented. ISP does not want to be responsible for licensing people that are not IL residents.

Edited by Gamma, 03 February 2018 - 08:07 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#689 kwc

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 07:02 AM

If the court put that in writing then that should be the last extension. I think this happened in another case and once the court pretty much said "That's it," they finally got their s***t together and filed the brief.


The same thing happened with this case during CA7 appeal of the preliminary injunction ruling. The third extension request by the State (which was approved) prompted the same cautionary note from the court.

Edited by kwc, 04 February 2018 - 07:03 AM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#690 sctman800

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:59 AM

Gamma;  I checked on handgunlaw and an Indiana resident only picks up 3 or 4 state by adding FL and UT.  Indiana permits are already honored in Florida and several other states that do not honor the Illinois permit.  I remember when the law was passed many of us thought the Illinois permit would be honored in almost all other states but that is not the case.  That was the thought because of the totally excessive amount of training required.  Indiana has no training required but is recognized in several more states because many states require reciprocity with the states they honor. So the law not only screws us on training time but also on carrying in other states.   Jim.


Kristofferson wrote it and Janis sang it "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."




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