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Do any of the experts recommend using target ammo in your carry guns?


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#31 jawman

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 08:23 AM

Repost now that I'm able to add line breaks (as already told you they didn't carry over from the tapatalk app, hopefully an admin can delete post #30 in this thread.):

I'm going to be frank and to the point: Definitely DON'T use target or FMJ rounds for self defense. Always use a QUALITY jacketed hollow point. Pretty much every expert worth their salt will say this. That's a clue. Also, there's a reason why the FBI and every police department in America use JHP and not FMJ or target loads. That's another clue.

If you did any amount of research before posting here you'd know that the above is true and you wouldn't even consider asking such a question.
Whatever minimal accuracy gain you think you're getting in target rounds over self defense rounds is very likely not going to matter in a self defense situation. If your accuracy is really so much better with target loads than self defense rounds (which I doubt and it is probably negligible), the problem is you and you need more training. That's the hard truth.

Use quality hollow point ammunition from a respectable manufacturer. Head over to the Lucky Gunner Labs website, they have tremendous data for a slew of defensive rounds in all of the common carry calibers shot from carry sized barrels. Excellent data and information. Ideally you want between 12"-18" of penetration and at least 0.60" expansion for the test results. Personally I prefer 147gr HST but that's just me.

DO NOT use hand loads for self defense, because it CAN and HAS been used against people in the court of law.

Here is a post by American Firearms and self-defense instructor Massad Ayoob on the liability dangers of using re-loads for self defense:

[i]Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court:

As promised, here are the sources for records for any who feel a need to confirm the cases I have referenced previously where handloaded ammunition caused problems for people in the aftermath of shootings.

As I have noted in this thread earlier, and as the attorneys who have responded to this matter have confirmed, local trials and results are not usually available on-line. However, in each case, I have included the location where the physical records of the trials are archived.

NH v. Kennedy

James Kennedy, a sergeant on the Hampton, NH police force, pursued a drunk driver whose reckless operation of the vehicle had forced other motorists off the road. The suspect ended up in a ditch, stalled and trying to get underway again. Advised by radio that responding backup officers were still a distance away, and fearing that the man would get back on the road and kill himself and others, Kennedy approached the vehicle. At the driver's door, the suspect grabbed Kennedy's Colt .45 auto and pulled it towards himself. It discharged in his face, causing massive injury.

The reload in the gun was a 200 grain Speer JHP, loaded to duplicate the 1000 fps from a 5" barrel then advertised by Speer for the same bullet in loaded cartridge configuration.

This was the first case where I saw the argument, "Why wasn't regular ammunition deadly enough for you?" used by opposing counsel. They charged Kennedy with aggravated assault. They made a large issue out of his use of handloads, suggesting that they were indicative of a reckless man obsessed with causing maximum damage.

Defense counsel hired the expert I suggested, Jim Cirillo, who did a splendid job of demolishing that argument and other bogus arguments against Kennedy at trial, and Kennedy was acquitted.

This case dates back to the late 1970s. The local courts tell me that the case documentation will be on file at Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. File search time is billed at $25 per hour for cases such as this that date back prior to 1988.

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6" S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30", and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50" or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the casings and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases of 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye, with Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24". Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor's office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client's innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender's office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution's allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I've learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender's office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, "When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target."

He adds, "With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to 'unring the bell'."

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, "Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise's head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?"

She replied, "You're certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, "It couldn't have happened the way he said it did".

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)


TN v. Barnes

The decedent attacked Robert Barnes and his young daughter with a large knife and was shot to death by the defendant with SJHP .38 Special reloads from a Smith & Wesson Model 36. The distance between the two at the time of the shooting became a key element in the trial, and a misunderstanding of that distance was a primary reason he was charged with Murder. The evidence was messed up in a number of ways in this case, and I do not believe the reloaded ammo (which the prosecution did not recognize to be such until during the trial) was the key problem, but it definitely was part of a problem in reconstructing the case. We were able to do that without GSR evidence, and Mr. Barnes won an acquittal. In this case, I believe the use of factory ammo, combined with proper handling and preserving of the evidence by the initial investigators, would have made the defense much easier and might well have prevented the case from ever being lodged against him.

The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

A man attempted to disarm and murder Corporal Randy Willems of the Davenport, IA Police Department, screaming "Give me your (expletive deleted) gun, I'll blow your (expletive deleted) brains out." Willems shot him during the third disarming attempt, dropping him instantly with one hit to the abdomen from a department issue factory round, Fiocchi 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+. The subject survived and stated that the officer had shot him for nothing from a substantial distance away. GSR testing showed conclusively that the subject's torso was approximately 18" from the muzzle of the issue Beretta 92 when it discharged. Randy was acquitted of criminal charges in the shooting at trial in 1990. Two years later, Randy and his department won the civil suit filed against them by the man who was shot.

I use this case when discussing handloads because it is a classic example of how the replicability of factory ammunition, in the forensic evidence sense, can annihilate false allegations by the bad guy against the good guy who shot him. The records of State of Iowa v. Corporal Randy Willems are archived in the Iowa District Court in Scott County, Davenport, Iowa. Those from the civil suit, Karwoski v. Willems and the City of Davenport, should be at the Iowa Civil Court of Scott County, also located in Davenport, Iowa.

A final word: I did not research the above and place it here to placate lightweight net ninjas. I did it because three recent Internet threads led me to believe that a number of decent people had honest questions about the real-world concerns about using handloads for self-defense, and were possibly putting themselves in jeopardy by doing so. For well over a decade, certain people have been creating an urban myth that says, No one has ever gotten in trouble in court because they used handloads.

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob

So YES hand loads for self defense can and has been used against people in court as shown above. Hopefully we can put that claim to rest, although people will still believe whatever they want to believe.


The ability to control editting (for more than 10 minutes give or take a few IIRC) is in your control. http://illinoiscarry...p=subscriptions

All that link did was take me to a paid subscription page. I looked through the settings and found nothing that changes the post edit time.

Edited by jawman, 19 May 2019 - 08:34 AM.

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#32 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 08:41 AM

Thanks for all the information in regards to my original question. I will take the advice and load all my semi auto handguns with HP ammo. I will however still load my snub nose 38 special pocket revolvers with target ammo. I like to be able to draw from my pocket and shoot with one hand. I can't shoot my snub nose revolvers with one hand steadily if they have +P or hot loads in them. In a close up self defense situation I may need to draw fast with my right arm. 



#33 jawman

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 08:45 AM

I will however still load my snub nose 38 special pocket revolvers with target ammo. I like to be able to draw from my pocket and shoot with one hand. I can't shoot my snub nose revolvers with one hand steadily if they have +P or hot loads in them. In a close up self defense situation I may need to draw fast with my right arm. 


I think you're still missing the point. Don't use target or FMJ loads in self defense handguns whatsoever. Hollow point only. If +P is that much more difficult for you to shoot then don't use +P. Use a non +P hollow point round. And practice so that it won't matter. In a self defense situation the adrenaline and stress won't matter as much as you think it will. Don't use FMJ at all in carry guns. Period.
I'm just one man's internet opinion, but like I said previously, every expert worth their salt will tell you the same.

Edited by jawman, 19 May 2019 - 08:46 AM.

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#34 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 09:04 AM

Ok I will try non +P hollow points in my snub nose revolvers to see of I can handle it with one arm. My concern is that in a self defense situation is that I wont be able to squeeze 5 rounds off as fast due to heavy recoil but maybe practice will change that. . Seconds and fractions of seconds matter. It all about saving your life. Shooting first to eliminate a threat. 



#35 Mr. Fife

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 10:31 AM

The OP's words will come back to haunt him should he ever have to fire, even if there is no fatality. You can't prove intent, but thinking like his makes it easier for a jury to decide. Can you show me one time that a jury EVER based a self defense shooting justification on the basis of ammo used?  
My comment was about the OP's intent to use his self defense weapon to kill. His words about intent to kill would certainly come back to haunt him. I had no comment on juries considering one type of ammo vs. another.
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#36 Bubbacs

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 11:51 AM

The required moneys are NOT for the heck of it.
It's a way to show and give support to those who work for us in Springfield and beyond on this site.

And it's a donation, not a arm twister.

ICC is running this as a full service forums for gun owners.

They've helped many and I’m sure they will help many more!

#37 BigJim

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 11:53 AM

Subscription purchase...benefits of...permits editing of your posts. Otherwise you are limited to a short time limit after posting.


You conveniently failed to mention that I have to pay money in order to unlock a basic feature, you acted like it was a simple setting I could go and easily change.
Which was exactly my original point on the matter: It's a total joke that there is such a restrictive time limit to editing your post, and even more of a joke that I have to pay money if I want to do something that is a basic feature on every other Internet forum I belong to (and I belong to a lot).
I should preface that I'm not going to get into a debate on this as it's merely my opinion, whatever it's worth (probably not much). I understand and respect that the site admins can run their site however they please.

This site is much more than an internet forum. It is a civil rights advocy organization just like the NRA or ISRA. It is largely because of the work of this organization that we have the gun rights we have including shall issue concealed carry.

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#38 lockman

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 12:09 PM

The Ayoob case cites seem to show the opposite of the posters argument. In fact it points out the argument that the use of handloads are in some way immoral, unethical or unlawful to be debunked. As the cases I viewed all were all adjudicated in the defendants favor. The one thing these cases show to me is the lawyers representing the plaintiffs see only $$$ and will argue any issue no matter how irrelevant to the facts at hand.

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#39 mauserme

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 12:33 PM

Repost now that I'm able to add line breaks (as already told you they didn't carry over from the tapatalk app, hopefully an admin can delete post #30 in this thread.):
...


That's been removed, as well as some of the intervening commentary.

Now that you know Tapatalk's limitations in regard to formatting lengthy posts I suggest you consider using it only for simple replies. More involved posts always seem to work best on a PC or laptop even, for me, on other forums.

 

The paid subscription, though not required, does help support the cause while allowing you more editing capability and the ability to view a few forums you currently can't see.  As others have pointed out, your membership level is up to you to decide,



#40 Glock23

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 12:34 PM

Ok I will try non +P hollow points in my snub nose revolvers to see of I can handle it with one arm. My concern is that in a self defense situation is that I wont be able to squeeze 5 rounds off as fast due to heavy recoil but maybe practice will change that. . Seconds and fractions of seconds matter. It all about saving your life. Shooting first to eliminate a threat. 
A 115gr FMJ has the same recoil as a 115gr HP. Same goes for 124gr, 147gr, etc. It's the grain count that changes recoil, not the design of the bullet itself.
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#41 papa

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 12:59 PM

Ok I will try non +P hollow points in my snub nose revolvers to see of I can handle it with one arm. My concern is that in a self defense situation is that I wont be able to squeeze 5 rounds off as fast due to heavy recoil but maybe practice will change that. . Seconds and fractions of seconds matter. It all about saving your life. Shooting first to eliminate a threat.



<-- Non +P with 17" penetration .....

<-- +P 130 gr. I carry these in my S&W model 36.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCSVmunM4OI <-- +P HP that acts like a FMJ load .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkscBbMGp5k -- This is a .380 FMJ gel test video. I couldn't find a .38 FMJ gel test but being as the .380 is slightly less powerful then the .38 special , you can get a good idea of what will happen with the .38 FMJ. It will over penetrate and put bystanders at risk. If you hurt someone else other than your intended bad guy because of over penetration , you will be liable for that person.

#42 jawman

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 04:04 PM

 

Repost now that I'm able to add line breaks (as already told you they didn't carry over from the tapatalk app, hopefully an admin can delete post #30 in this thread.):
...


That's been removed, as well as some of the intervening commentary.

Now that you know Tapatalk's limitations in regard to formatting lengthy posts I suggest you consider using it only for simple replies. More involved posts always seem to work best on a PC or laptop even, for me, on other forums.

 

The paid subscription, though not required, does help support the cause while allowing you more editing capability and the ability to view a few forums you currently can't see.  As others have pointed out, your membership level is up to you to decide,

 

 

I understand all of that. At the time I didn't have laptop access, and copy/pasted the Ayoob response from a different site. Sometimes when copying and pasting, the Tapatalk app loses line breaks and other characters in the translation, resulting in less than satisfactory formatting. It's all I had at the time, and I spent much of my time trying to edit and fix the post, only to have that time wasted when it would not allow me to due to exceeding a silly time limit. I came here to try to help, citing information that I thought others might find interesting and relevant, only for that time and effort to feel wasted.

 

That being said, I don't think it's right nor fair to interject censorship such as deleting my post, just because I chose to speak about how I personally feel about a restriction on editing posts which can only be lifted by monetary payment for a subscription. 

I am well aware that this site is more than just an internet forum, and is indeed a civil rights advocacy organization, and that this org was part of the fight for concealed carry. I am a member of the ISRA and GOA, as well as other organizations, and I also regularly make additional donations to these orgs, on top of the standard membership cost. You certainly can't say that about most gun owners. Furthermore, my Amazon Smile is set up to give all donations to Gun Owners Foundation. My point is, supporting and sending money to pro 2A organizations I care about is met with eagerness from me.

 

I have toyed back and forth whether or not to pay for the subscription/donation on this forum. I have my reasons why. Some of which are because I feel certain aspects of this site should be better managed and maintained. Many free forums have better management and maintenance compared to what I see here, so it's difficult for me to pay for a subscription when I don't even like how the site is ran. in certain ways. And when comparing that to free forums that do it better and do not ask for payment to unlock basic features, you can understand why I am hesitant to pay.

 

This is just one man's opinion. Please, I hope you don't feel threatened by it to delete my post again. Behavior like that surely will not sway me to join up as a paid member. I understand and respect that the owners of this site have every right to choose to run it how they wish, and I respectfully disagree on some of those aspects. But when we see the scum on the left try to censor information such as twisting the truth or refusing to cover anything that paints firearms in a positive light, how are we any better if we choose to censor the post of someone who is supposed to be on our side, in a forum that is meant to bring us together. It is unnecessarily hypocritical to engage in such behavior.


Edited by jawman, 19 May 2019 - 04:13 PM.

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#43 mauserme

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 04:33 PM

...
That being said, I don't think it's right nor fair to interject censorship such as deleting my post, just because I chose to speak about how I personally feel about a restriction on editing posts which can only be lifted by monetary payment for a subscription.


Yet you requested that it be deleted.
 

Repost now that I'm able to add line breaks (as already told you they didn't carry over from the tapatalk app, hopefully an admin can delete post #30 in this thread.):
...


Rather than continuing to divert OP's thread from it's topic, further posts related to forum practices will be best posted in Site Support.

I can assist with that if it proves too difficult.

#44 Bubbacs

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 04:37 PM

You asked for that post yo be deleted!

#45 jawman

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 04:41 PM

Guys, either you're being disingenuous, or you're simply mistaken. Yes I absolutely requested that the post which had no paragraphs be deleted since it was just a wall of text that was not easily readable. However you went further and deleted more than that, including my other later posts, ones that I did not ask to be deleted. My guess was because I voiced my opinion in them that I was unhappy with restrictive edit time limits that can only be lifted by a monetary subscription, when every other internet forum allows this basic function to be free and part of the site as normal. Those were separate posts that I never asked to be deleted, yet they were deleted anyway.

Regardless, I'm not going to sit here and argue back and forth on this any longer. There are much more important things for all of us to spend our time on, and I'd rather not derail this post further than it already has.


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#46 spu69

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 05:40 PM

147gr Speer lawman for practice and IDPA competition ammo, 147gr HP Fiocchi for carry ammo. Consistent weight and muzzle velocity. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

#47 jawman

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:13 PM

Pretty much everything you need to know is here: https://www.luckygun...allistic-tests/

 

For penetration, you want a minimum of 12" and maximum of 18", as this is the FBI recommended range. So a good rule of thumb is the middle ground of that being 15" is ideal. Some may want closer to the 18" mark, but definitely nothing beyond that because then you get into overpenetration. If you use Target or FMJ rounds, you will surely get overpenetration most of the time. Only a rookie fool would use such rounds for self defense, hence why no famous instructor or person in the industry ever recommends that.
 
For expansion people generally say to look for a minimum of 0.50" expansion (ideally 0.60" or greater expansion) for 9mm/.40/357 Sig/.45. 
 
For 9mm, the 147gr standard pressure HST performed best with avg penetration at 15.2" and expansion at 0.61".
The 124gr HST, 147gr HST, and 150gr HST (all standard pressure) check all the boxes for the above ideal results. The 147gr Winchester Ranger T and 147 gr Remington Golden Saber also performed well, but did have some near overpenetration or inconsistent expansion. Notice that I did not mention any +P rounds for 9mm as they usually overpenetrate, as you can see from the test data.
 
I haven't looked into other calibers very much because I only carry 9mm. But that link has a wealth of data for various rounds in a slew of common handgun calibers, tested in common carry sized barrels. For your concern on your snub nose 38 special, there are quite a few rounds tested from a 2" barrel that are standard pressure and perform well in the test.

Edited by jawman, 20 May 2019 - 05:14 PM.

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#48 Giant Teddybear

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 09:14 PM

 After carrying for a year I was told to use hollow points because if someone is behind the person you are shooting if you shoot them with a full metal jacket round it will go through them and hit the person behind.

 

 I use full metal jacket rounds for target practicing and  jacketed hollow points carrying concealed.

 

 In my own opinion.



#49 DD123

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 08:47 PM

I think people put way too much thought into this stuff.  

 

Anything greater than standard pressure self defense ammo is unnecessary.  The regular old self defense rounds expand just fine, and there are plenty of Youtubers who've done extremely detailed tests, even using multiple layers of denim over the ballistic gel.  

 

If you can't shoot your defensive ammo accurately, that proves one of two things; that particular SD ammo isn't quite suited to your gun, so find a different brand of SD ammo, and if that doesn't solve the problem, you need a lot more training.  

 

The only difference I see between FMJ's and SD ammo is a slightly different point of impact.  They generally have the same or similar recoil impulse.  

 

ETA:  in almost every case, it's the Indian and not the arrow.  Almost everyone that's handed me a gun that they say is inaccurate, I shoot it and it's suddenly accurate.  


Edited by DD123, 23 May 2019 - 08:48 PM.

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#50 MagSlap

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:55 AM



Thanks for all the information in regards to my original question. I will take the advice and load all my semi auto handguns with HP ammo. I will however still load my snub nose 38 special pocket revolvers with target ammo. I like to be able to draw from my pocket and shoot with one hand. I can't shoot my snub nose revolvers with one hand steadily if they have +P or hot loads in them. In a close up self defense situation I may need to draw fast with my right arm. 

 

Try these if you you think a defensive round may cause recoil issues.

 

CriticalDefense38.jpg



#51 soundguy

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:57 AM

ETA:  in almost every case, it's the Indian and not the arrow.  Almost everyone that's handed me a gun that they say is inaccurate, I shoot it and it's suddenly accurate.  

 

So very true!

This is how I picked up the LNIB Colt King Cobra in my avatar... for the $350 it cost the original owner. He couldn't hit the target with it at 10 feet. Still had half of his first box of .38 special ammo left.


Edited by soundguy, 24 May 2019 - 07:58 AM.

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#52 cybermgk

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:59 AM

 

Do any of the experts recommend using target ammo in your carry guns? 

None that I know of.  You shoot to stop the threat, not shoot someone else unintentionally .  An ideal self defense bullet would transfer all of its energy to the threat and not leave the body.  Hollow points are less likely to over penetrate than full metal jacket rounds. The FMJ can pass through the threat and a wall with enough mass and energy to kill an innocent person behind the wall. 

 

This.  Large caliber, slower moving (to reduce leading) soft lead rounds do as well.  Detractors for either of these point to their inability to shoot through a barrier.  IMHO, there aren't a lot of incidents where a civilian needs to shoot through a window in self defense (where the idea should be to stop or break contact).


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#53 Xwing

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:02 AM

Repost now that I'm able to add line breaks (as already told you they didn't carry over from the tapatalk app, hopefully an admin can delete post #30 in this thread.):

I'm going to be frank and to the point: Definitely DON'T use target or FMJ rounds for self defense. Always use a QUALITY jacketed hollow point. Pretty much every expert worth their salt will say this. That's a clue. Also, there's a reason why the FBI and every police department in America use JHP and not FMJ or target loads. That's another clue.

...

 

 

Thank you for sharing!  That was very good information regarding using hand-loads for self defense.  It was interesting to read the actual case summaries.

 

Regarding the "forum features" on edit for paid membership, mauserme was simply asking you to bring up that discussion in the Site Support subforum instead of this thread as to not derail this important and interesting topic regarding type of ammo to use for self defense.  I believe that if you bring up your concerns in that forum in a new thread, the pros / cons can be discussed rationally without confusing the topic of this one. :)


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#54 Bubbacs

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:41 AM

 After carrying for a year I was told to use hollow points because if someone is behind the person you are shooting if you shoot them with a full metal jacket round it will go through them and hit the person behind.
 
 I use full metal jacket rounds for target practicing and  jacketed hollow points carrying concealed.
 
 In my own opinion.


One of the things being taught in our classes is to make sure of your backstop and beyond.
It's not just a matter of the round, you could miss and hit someone behind the target.
Be aware of you surroundings and be sure to practice shot placement.

#55 barryware

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 12:34 PM

Didn't read, not going to read all comments / posts in this thread..

 

If you (or a perp) gets shot.. it will definitely change the behavior no matter what caliber, weight, etc..

 

And.. Don't miss (pay attention to rule 4), That is why we practice..


Edited by barryware, 24 May 2019 - 12:35 PM.

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#56 papa

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 12:55 PM

Didn't read, not going to read all comments / posts in this thread..
 
If you (or a perp) gets shot.. it will definitely change the behavior no matter what caliber, weight, etc..
 
And.. Don't miss (pay attention to rule 4), That is why we practice..

 
This is not always true.  read the link I have posted ....


https://www.policeon...mmo-on-the-job/

#57 Bubbacs

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:50 PM

Didn't read, not going to read all comments / posts in this thread.. If you (or a perp) gets shot.. it will definitely change the behavior no matter what caliber, weight, etc.. And.. Don't miss (pay attention to rule 4), That is why we practice..

 This is not always true.  read the link I have posted ....https://www.policeon...mmo-on-the-job/



Read the entire link, didn't see anything about FMJ vs TMJ or weights therein.
Once again this OP’s threads go left and right and there's a reason!

And to complete my rant.....Asking in a online forum for expert advice is a waste of time.
You’re getting maybe experience from a few and posts from those reading articles at best.
Popcorn is ready and warm for the next Expert thread........

#58 papa

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:16 PM

 

 

Didn't read, not going to read all comments / posts in this thread.. If you (or a perp) gets shot.. it will definitely change the behavior no matter what caliber, weight, etc.. And.. Don't miss (pay attention to rule 4), That is why we practice..

 This is not always true.  read the link I have posted ....https://www.policeon...mmo-on-the-job/



Read the entire link, didn't see anything about FMJ vs TMJ or weights therein.
Once again this OP’s threads go left and right and there's a reason!

And to complete my rant.....Asking in a online forum for expert advice is a waste of time.
You’re getting maybe experience from a few and posts from those reading articles at best.
Popcorn is ready and warm for the next Expert thread........

 

 

I and many others have posted plenty of information for the OP to be able to decide if FMJ or HP ammo should be used . 

 

My reason for posting my last link was to show that even HP won't always stop a threat and FMJ will do even less damage so would be even less effective . Even though it didn't tell what ammo was used , we all know that police do not use FMJ in their duty firearms..



#59 Giant Teddybear

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 10:12 PM

 The key word was "Experts"

 

 LMAO



#60 Mick G

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 06:37 AM

 

 After carrying for a year I was told to use hollow points because if someone is behind the person you are shooting if you shoot them with a full metal jacket round it will go through them and hit the person behind.
 
 I use full metal jacket rounds for target practicing and  jacketed hollow points carrying concealed.
 
 In my own opinion.


One of the things being taught in our classes is to make sure of your backstop and beyond.
It's not just a matter of the round, you could miss and hit someone behind the target.
Be aware of you surroundings and be sure to practice shot placement.

 

 

A.380 FMJ will go right through a bad guy out of a mouse gun.

A miss with any ammo could result in dire consequences.

 

Practice with ammo that is very close as to what you be carrying. I personally like Fiocchi w/XTPs for carry and practice with the same weight in FMJ. I find they are within a couple of inches on the range. The one thing that you absolutely regret for the rest of your life is shooting an innocent. I'm not gung ho about shooting anyone but there may come a time where I have to because my life is in jeopardy.


Edited by Mick G, 31 May 2019 - 06:40 AM.





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