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Employer doesn't allow conceal carry


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#1 Lord_Balkan

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 06:00 PM

A big reason they had was liability. Is there any recourse to this?



#2 Thiokol

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 06:43 PM

Nope. It's their property, their rules. 


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#3 soundguy

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 07:27 PM

New employer?


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#4 quackersmacker

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 07:46 PM

Or, concealed means concealed, and you can take the risk of losing your job.


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#5 Mr. Fife

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 08:44 PM

Do they allow open carry on their property?
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#6 Lord_Balkan

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 09:01 PM

They rent the property in a bigger building. The building doesnt restrict conceal carry, it has tenants and renters. There are surely firearms on the property. This is just an office inside the building with the conceal carry signs posted. If those signs didnt have the force of law, I wouldn't be asking the question.



#7 Hoffsoft

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 09:28 PM

Who posted the signs? Can you point out the disadvantages and potential loss of profit?

#8 Lord_Balkan

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 09:33 PM

Who posted the signs? Can you point out the disadvantages and potential loss of profit?

Management, we dont have customers coming to the office. We are a tech firm.



#9 DaveIL

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 06:02 AM

Is there a sign on the Back door?

#10 GTX63

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 07:18 AM

Just thinking out loud, but if there are no customers on site, the building is contained within a building, the only group of people the employer would seemed to be worried about would be...their employees.

 

To the random drifter who bumped into this site on the way to their morning coffee and devotional of Daily Kos, you might be asking yourself what is the need for the employee to have a firearm inside a secure office with no outside traffic? See the sentence above.



#11 RandyP

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 07:37 AM

To the OP.. welcome to Illinois Carry. It's a fine bunch of 2A concerned and involved folks.  This was a major topic 5-6 years ago when this sorry State was dragged by the courts into at least recognizing our RIGHT to personal protection. Concealed Carry is a right of all law-abiding citizens. But just like abiding by the No Guns legal signs on businesses across the State, employer HR rules directly affect their employees only. Disregard them at your own financial peril.

 

Even if you qualify and go through all the hoops, your right to carry ends where most employer's building begins if they specifically ban the practice and you wish to continue to be their employee. Same as everything else that dictates employee work rules. Their house, their rules.


Edited by RandyP, 05 December 2020 - 07:38 AM.

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#12 Jeffrey

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 08:24 AM

Is there a sign on the Back door?

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#13 vito

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 08:37 AM

Wear a loose fitting shirt or jacket while at work just in case you "forget" to take your gun out and leave it in your car. Some people use a SmartCarry holster or something similar that is so comfortable that you forget that you have a gun with you. It can happen, and you might accidentally enter a posted location. Just try harder to remember to follow the rules the next time, or the time after that, or the time after that.......


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#14 Lou

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 08:43 AM

Just remember that NOBODY here is encouraging you to break the law.  
 

if you follow their advice and get fired they will not be supporting you.  


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#15 101abn

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 08:52 AM

Since this is an office within a building with tenants I’m assuming its multi level, Unless their on the first floor, even then i would think if there was a back door it would be an emergency exit only, depending on the buildings structure / set up. The only recourse is ( if it is not ) to request that the office entrance be secured with some type of key card entrance system so not every Tom, Dick or Harriet can walk in. Question is do you want to put yourself in that position where they will always suspect you. But, you might already be, question’ing the signage.



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#16 soundguy

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 09:42 AM

Personal ethics... even if the back door wasn't posted, you already know CC isn't allowed.

 

Three ethical choices?

 - find a new job

 - arrange to work from home

 - don't carry at work.


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#17 Windermere

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 11:42 AM

Personal ethics... even if the back door wasn't posted, you already know CC isn't allowed.
 
Three ethical choices?
 - find a new job
 - arrange to work from home
 - don't carry at work.


+1

They employ you. Follow the rules or go somewhere else.
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#18 spec5

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Posted 05 December 2020 - 01:31 PM

Nope. It's their property, their rules. 

There were 17 posts before mine. This reply from Thiokol should have ended the replies and his was the 2nd post. Just saying. 


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#19 Xwing

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 02:27 PM

If they didn't have the legal ISP mandated signs, it would just be a choice of "being unprotected at work" or "risk being fired if they found out". 

 

But since they have the sign, there is no way you can legally carry.  While you may break the law and never get caught, it's not usually a good idea.  

 

Your choices:

1.  Break the law.  Certainly get fired if caught, and possibly get arrested (depending on if the company decides to just fire you or to call the police.)

2.  Leave firearm at home or in your car.  Be unprotected while at work.  But keep your job, and stay "law abiding".

3.  Find a different employment opportunity where they do not prohibit carry.

 

Personally, I pick #2.  While it's bothersome, the alternatives IMO are worse.  But only you can decide for yourself.


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#20 InterestedBystander

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 08:07 PM

If they didn't have the legal ISP mandated signs, it would just be a choice of "being unprotected at work" or "risk being fired if they found out". 
 
But since they have the sign, there is no way you can legally carry.  While you may break the law and never get caught, it's not usually a good idea.  
 
Your choices:
1.  Break the law.  Certainly get fired if caught, and possibly get arrested (depending on if the company decides to just fire you or to call the police.)
2.  Leave firearm at home or in your car.  Be unprotected while at work.  But keep your job, and stay "law abiding".
3.  Find a different employment opportunity where they do not prohibit carry.
 
Personally, I pick #2.  While it's bothersome, the alternatives IMO are worse.  But only you can decide for yourself.

Havent we had some reports of employers also checking parking lots so be sure to make sure concealed (and maybe avoid firearm stickers) in case they are a place that might want to search your vehicle and you must let them while on their property. Although probably not so relevant as I now remember you say renting in a larger building.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 07 December 2020 - 08:23 PM.

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#21 Euler

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 09:03 PM

Havent we had some reports of employers also checking parking lots so be sure to make sure concealed (and maybe avoid firearm stickers) in case they are a place that might want to search your vehicle and you must let them while on their property. Although probably not so relevant as I now remember you say renting in a larger building.


There was a case of an employee getting fired, because the employer had a policy of no guns in the parking lot, and employees had to consent to have their cars searched. The employer lost and had to give the guy his job back.

The only employers in Illinois that can forbid guns stored in accordance with state and federal law in their parking lots are federal agencies in federal lots and colleges and universities in some lots.
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#22 mauserme

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 05:32 AM

Havent we had some reports of employers also checking parking lots so be sure to make sure concealed (and maybe avoid firearm stickers) in case they are a place that might want to search your vehicle and you must let them while on their property. Although probably not so relevant as I now remember you say renting in a larger building.


There was a case of an employee getting fired, because the employer had a policy of no guns in the parking lot, and employees had to consent to have their cars searched. The employer lost and had to give the guy his job back.

The only employers in Illinois that can forbid guns stored in accordance with state and federal law in their parking lots are federal agencies in federal lots and colleges and universities in some lots.


Do you have a citation for that case, or a pdf you can send me? It might help document an argument we've been making,

#23 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 08:42 AM

I did a search and came up with a bunch of cases.  I think the one we're talking about is one of these:

 

Universal employee gets job back after fired for gun :: Guns.com

 

Court: Man wrongfully terminated for having gun in vehicle at work :: Guns.com

 

WI Man Unlawfully Fired For Having Gun In His Car, Wisconsin Carry Funds Lawsuit (ammoland.com)



#24 mauserme

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 11:33 AM

Thanks.

 

I'm really hoping for an Illinois case that demonstrates a mandate created in the FCCA.



#25 3ddiver

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 01:36 PM

Thanks.

 

I'm really hoping for an Illinois case that demonstrates a mandate created in the FCCA.

 

How about this one?

 

https://www.guns.com...-gun-in-vehicle



#26 mauserme

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 01:40 PM

That will work.  Thanks.



#27 mauserme

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 02:00 PM

So, if one voluntarily signs a contract with terms of employment, policies, rules, etc.  it's non-binding and means nothing?


It isn't that it means nothing.

There is an argument to be made that the FCCA creates a mandate to allow concealed carry, with some exceptions. One of those exceptions is within a building that is correctly posted. Parking lots are not generally within the exception in regard to licensees storing a firearm in their vehicle, even when the associated building is posted.  If we accept that logic for the sake of argument, then statute mandating parking lot storage trumps the employment contract. 

 

It looks as if the case 3ddiver linked to used that sort of logic



#28 Euler

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 02:48 PM

Thanks.
 
I'm really hoping for an Illinois case that demonstrates a mandate created in the FCCA.

 
How about this one?
 
https://www.guns.com...-gun-in-vehicle


That's the one I remembered. I'm pretty sure there's already a thread on here somewhere about it, too.

EDIT: This one

Edited by Euler, 08 December 2020 - 02:50 PM.

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#29 mauserme

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Posted 09 December 2020 - 12:21 PM

 

If we accept that logic for the sake of argument, then statute mandating parking lot storage trumps the employment contract.


But only for a few.

Does the law cover IL FOID card holders and those from out of state legally transporting a firearm?

 

 
If you re-read the full quote that you edited, I think you'll understand that I spoke exclusively of persons licensed under the FCCA.

 

It isn't that it means nothing.

There is an argument to be made that the FCCA creates a mandate to allow concealed carry, with some exceptions. One of those exceptions is within a building that is correctly posted. Parking lots are not generally within the exception in regard to licensees storing a firearm in their vehicle, even when the associated building is posted.  If we accept that logic for the sake of argument, then statute mandating parking lot storage trumps the employment contract. 
 
It looks as if the case 3ddiver linked to used that sort of logic



#30 mauserme

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Posted 10 December 2020 - 05:34 AM

Just to be clear, I'm making a private property argument. 
 
Specifically where the building, parking lot, in some cares the roads that lead to the parking lot, and surrounding land is wholly owned by the employer and the general public is not allowed to enter.
 
The way I read it the law creates a special group of people that cannot be fired for violating company policy on company owned property, but the majority of employees still can be.
 
How does the insurance industry handle this when an employer no longer has complete authority to completely secure their private property in the way they see fit?
 
Some states have given employers liability protection, IL hasn't.

Looking back through the posts I notice that OP says the office space is rented. That, of course, raises a question as to whether it can be posted by his employer or not. Even so, employment issues would still be a worry.

As far as creating a special class, not really. The class of people who choose to exersize their 2A rights in a limited way under the FCCA is a group anyone can join unless prohibited in some way. And no, it is not free rein to ignore company policy, but employeers are subject to laws in making their policies just as the rest of are.

I presume the insurance you speak of is liability insurance, ie coverage for bodily injury or property damage caused by the negligence of the insured. In general, acting in compliance with applicable law will relieve that concern as the action(s) taken by the insured represent the only legal path. If sued, the carrier would defend the insured and, depending on the specific facts of the claim, would be very likely to pay a judgement if there was one in my opinion.

 






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